Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Oh yeah, since you apparently get a special ability based on what wish you made...what's Kyoko's?

My guess is, super-strength. I mentioned this in Kyoko's thread, but Sayaka couldn't even budge Kyoko's staff with both hands. Kyoko kicked in a pair of double doors, smashed a piece of lumber with her foot, and lifted Sayaka up with both hands.

because if Kyubey could resurrect Mami, he could easily wring Madoka in.

It should be noted that Kyube has admitted that one of the rules is he can't suggest wishes to the girls. So if it were possible, he just couldn't say anything.

And this leads me to another interesting thought, as to why Kyube doesn't volunteer information: He can't. We know he's forbidden from suggesting wishes, so perhaps he's forbidden from telling them things unless they ask or the situation comes up that demands he answer.

Would put a new and interesting spin on him.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Part of the issue is that this series is named after Madoka, and it is the main hero who is expected to handle things. So far, Madoka has sat from the sidelines, perhaps doing a bit of supporting, but otherwise not affecting much. She seems incredibly idealistic, so much so that she puts Sayaka's life in danger (removing her only way to defend herself). So part of it is that Madoka is trying to work on just idealism, without actually making the hard choices, and she has a certain responsibility as the series main heroine (supposedly; could be a Gen mindfuck, though).

The title always should have a certain credibility but that doesn't mean it's a must for Madoka to act accordingly plus even if she is the most important main character in this case, she isn't the only main character. Take "A Certain Magical Index" for example. Damn, what happened to Index' screentime?! And I don't think Madoka intended to put Sayaka into life danger. She didn't know about the SG thingy.

So a part of it is Sayaka having contracted and saved Madoka's life. Friends count on each other to help them when things are down. Sayaka has done that for Madoka, and thus it's Madoka's turn to do that for Sayaka. Sayaka took on a heavy burden so Madoka wouldn't have to. Once more, Madoka waffled while Sayaka made the hard choice.

I'm not saying they're quit because they aren't but it's not like Madoka has done nothing for Sayaka either so far. As she is now, Madoka does the only thing she can do, emotional support. Like hugging her and listening to Sayaka's rants.

Another part is that people have argued that Madoka's idealism is supposed to be what saves the day. If this means anything, then her idealism has to actually be shown to be effective in helping people. So far, it hasn't. We can hardly say, "Great job, Madoka! You saved the day with your idealism! Of course, Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko, and Homura had to die first, but better late than never, eh?"

I don't (want to) know who argued that but that doesn't mean she has to save the day all the time when she would be able to theoretically. I think Madoka simply does what she >thinks< is her best, and she is not perfect either. Dunno if that's what her idealism is supposed to be but that's how I see it.

If Madoka is gonna be a good friend and earn her place in this series, she needs to really earn it. Sayaka is essentially counting on Madoka to be an anchor, and Madoka can't earn her place if she has to step over Sayaka's crazed and/or dead body to it.

Are you referring to that Madoka should talk with Sayaka about the Hitomi case? If so, even if that happened, that wouldn't neccessarily mean a lot for the outcome. I doubt Sayaka would quote or go into detail about her personal problem which she especially already stated before. That Hitomi would take away Kamijou and she can't do anything about it. Madoka doesn't know about the 1 day limit and such. And even if she did, whether she'd be able to change Sayaka's attitude is questionable. Also it's questionable whether Madoka would have still talked to her at a later time after the day passed, given that she didn't know Sayaka only had one day. I agree however that she should at least try, late or not.

So if I could sum it up, it's "Hey, girl, your friend is having a tough time; what are you doing to do about it? You already had one friend die; how many more will it take for you to get your act together? Everyone else is saving your ass and letting you avoid the hard decisions. Isn't about time you did something in return?"

Agreed.

To be fair, I think this series is trying to teach Madoka that. In most superhero shows where the main hero is hesitant or afraid, it's a point of growth where they realize they to bite the bullet and step up, because it depends on them. Sorta like Shinji in Evangelion, another whiner who didn't want to really get involved.

Exactly. She probably knows about the idealism she believes in but she just doesn't know for sure how to put it to practice. And that's why she will make mistakes or hesitations etc. so at this point, I personally would not groan if she wasn't able to shake up Sayaka and such.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

(supposedly; could be a Gen mindfuck, though).

Well,from the wiki:

Japanese fans noticed that the font of the kanji "魔法" (mahou, magic) in the show's logo text is heavily stylized, and could be read instead as "廃怯" (hai-kyou, cowardice, hesitation).
The visually valid joke title, "廃怯少女　まどか☆マギカ" (Hai-Kyou Shoujo Madoka Magika), could be translated as "wavering girl Madoka Magica"

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Another part is that people have argued that Madoka's idealism is supposed to be what saves the day. If this means anything, then her idealism has to actually be shown to be effective in helping people. So far, it hasn't. We can hardly say, "Great job, Madoka! You saved the day with your idealism! Of course, Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko, and Homura had to die first, but better late than never, eh?"

Yeah, I have to agree with you here.

If Sayaka dies and/or gets turned into a witch, and if she doesn't get resurrected/revived back into a human by the end of the anime, then this anime won't have an effective idealistic ending, imo.

Now, it certainly might be that Gen isn't aiming for that kind of end anyway.


But if he is aiming for an effective idealistic ending, then things eventually have to start looking up again, or at the very least end on a largely positive note.

Mami's death alone I can let slide. But not much more.

Madoka pulling off a last minute "Magical Girl saves the day!" in the final episode will not look particularly impressive to me if it happens with her ultimately failing to save her best friend.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Vanish

The title always should have a certain credibility but that doesn't mean it's a must for Madoka to act accordingly plus even if she is the most important main character in this case, she isn't the only main character. Take "A Certain Magical Index" for example. Damn, what happened to Index' screentime?!

True, the title doesn't always indicate the main hero. In Index's case, Touma is the main hero. But I have my own issues with Index that I won't share here, heh.

And I don't think Madoka intended to put Sayaka into life danger. She didn't know about the SG thingy.

It wasn't that. Madoka took away Sayaka's only way to defend herself, when she had two other MG's wanting to beat her down. Madoka didn't want Sayaka to fight, which is idealistic, but in a very real sense, she deprived Sayaka of her only defense.

I'm not saying they're quit because they aren't but it's not like Madoka has done nothing for Sayaka either so far. As she is now, Madoka does the only thing she can do, emotional support. Like hugging her and listening to Sayaka's rants.

To some credit, Madoka has done that... so it's only taken 7 episodes for her to do something. But still, her form of support is pretty much limited to her existing. Unless Sayaka really is the main character, then it should be Madoka taking the lead and Sayaka supporting.

I don't (want to) know who argued that but that doesn't mean she has to save the day all the time when she would be able to theoretically. I think Madoka simply does what she >thinks< is her best, and she is not perfect either. Dunno if that's what her idealism is supposed to be but that's how I see it.

Partly. I understand Madoka is trying to do what she thinks it's best, but there is an important qualifier there; she is doing what she thinks is best, minus any hard decisions. In short, not backing up her idealism with an actual principled stand she is willing to defend. Which makes her words sound hollow.

Are you referring to that Madoka should talk with Sayaka about the Hitomi case? If so, even if that happened, that wouldn't neccessarily mean a lot for the outcome. I doubt Sayaka would quote or go into detail about her personal problem which she especially already stated before. That Hitomi would take away Kamijou and she can't do anything about it. Madoka doesn't know about the 1 day limit and such. And even if she did, whether she'd be able to change Sayaka's attitude is questionable. Also it's questionable whether Madoka would have still talked to her at a later time after the day passed, given that she didn't know Sayaka only had one day. I agree however that she should at least try, late or not.

Well, if I were Madoka, I'd be saying stuff like, "You're still human to me. Despite what might have changed, we can still have a relationship as friends. And if that is possible, then a relationship with Kamijou is. You're human enough for me, and you will be for Kamijou, too."

In otherwise, I would see my duty as trying to make her feel better, by convincing her that nothing had changed. Thus taking away her worries and fears. Will Madoka even see the possibility of doing this? Well, her track record of asking questions isn't too good, heh.

Exactly. She probably knows about the idealism she believes in but she just doesn't know for sure how to put it to practice. And that's why she will make mistakes or hesitations etc. so at this point, I personally would not groan if she wasn't able to shake up Sayaka and such.

If she does, then I'll begin to believe in Madoka. If she doesn't, I'll sigh realizing Madoka is merely being what she has continued to be up until this point, heh.

Originally Posted by totoum

Japanese fans noticed that the font of the kanji "魔法" (mahou, magic) in the show's logo text is heavily stylized, and could be read instead as "廃怯" (hai-kyou, cowardice, hesitation).
The visually valid joke title, "廃怯少女　まどか☆マギカ" (Hai-Kyou Shoujo Madoka Magika), could be translated as "wavering girl Madoka Magica"

Interesting. It could be that Gen plans to make Madoka whiny and wimpy all the way through. Either she'll stumble upon the right thing at the very end, or she won't and thus it's a bad end because she wasn't able to step up at all. Kinda taking the typical "I just want to be normaaaaal!" whiny MG protagonist to its ultimate end, heh.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Interesting. It could be that Gen plans to make Madoka whiny and wimpy all the way through. Either she'll stumble upon the right thing at the very end, or she won't and thus it's a bad end because she wasn't able to step up at all. Kinda taking the typical "I just want to be normaaaaal!" whiny MG protagonist to its ultimate end, heh.

You know, I was very skeptical of a "bad end" for this anime before (for sheer commercial reasons more than anything else), but I have to say that if Gen is aiming for a really tough deconstruction here (much like NGE was) then this would be a fitting way to end things.

Even many magical girl anime fans like you and I have frequently been exasperated by the typical "I just want to be normaaaaal" whiny MG protagonist. Gen doing an anime that shows what would realistically happen to a character like that would both appeal to his own grimdark fanbase, as well as to some magical girl genre fans like you and I who would appreciate a deconstruction of this particular magical girl character type.

It would be a bit risky commercially, but it could also pay off if executed well.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It wasn't that. Madoka took away Sayaka's only way to defend herself, when she had two other MG's wanting to beat her down. Madoka didn't want Sayaka to fight, which is idealistic, but in a very real sense, she deprived Sayaka of her only defense.

Homura didn't intend on killing her. Either way she would have won against Sayaka as she did before, MG or not. About Kyouko, she could have killed / beat up Sayaka before she even could transform, but chose not to. I believe she at least wants to have something of a fight and not just "stomp on a bug". Plus Homura might have just saved her (or Madoka if Kyouko went after her given that she didn't throw it away) like last time. I agree that Sayaka was deprived of her only defense though. Stupid, yes. Made sense, a bit.

Partly. I understand Madoka is trying to do what she thinks it's best, but there is an important qualifier there; she is doing what she thinks is best, minus any hard decisions. In short, not backing up her idealism with an actual principled stand she is willing to defend. Which makes her words sound hollow.

That's true but now I got curious after all: what do we know about Madoka's idealism? Can it be defined like that? If it's not what we think it is, do we have the right to say "she is not backing up her idealism"?

Well, if I were Madoka, I'd be saying stuff like, "You're still human to me. Despite what might have changed, we can still have a relationship as friends. And if that is possible, then a relationship with Kamijou is. You're human enough for me, and you will be for Kamijou, too."

In otherwise, I would see my duty as trying to make her feel better, by convincing her that nothing had changed. Thus taking away her worries and fears. Will Madoka even see the possibility of doing this? Well, her track record of asking questions isn't too good, heh.

Agreed, I can trust Madoka to say those things. Well, let us hope she will just do that or similar.

If she does, then I'll begin to believe in Madoka. If she doesn't, I'll sigh realizing Madoka is merely being what she has continued to be up until this point, heh.

Optimism is great medicine against sighs.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It would be a bit risky commercially, but it could also pay off if executed well.

Well from another Uroboshi interview

Transformation is not easy, but I wanted the viewer to feel the weight of "becoming a magical girl".
After all, it's the story until making that choice. The viewers may be confused, but luckily I think we can do it because we don't have to sell the merchandising. If this were a project with typical sponsors, we'd get slapped around if we didn't make her transform in the first episode (laughs). But since we're fortunately not stuck with that type of project this time, we're proceeding along the lines of "let's do everything we can get away with this time!".

So I guess the question is,does he feel like he can get away with it?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Homura didn't intend on killing her. Either way she would have won against Sayaka as she did before, MG or not. About Kyouko, she could have killed / beat up Sayaka before she even could transform, but chose not to. I believe she at least wants to have something of a fight and not just "stomp on a bug". Plus Homura might have just saved her (or Madoka if Kyouko went after her given that she didn't throw it away) like last time. I agree that Sayaka was deprived of her only defense though. Stupid, yes. Made sense, a bit.

That's why I said "beat up." Homura very much planned on putting Sayaka down long enough that Sayaka wouldn't be able to interfere in Walpurgis night, which is coming up. Do you think it would matter to Homura whether Sayaka was an MG at the time? It actually might have made it easier, since as an MG, Sayaka has great regeneration. You'd have to do a LOT of damage to put Sayaka down, especially given what we know about the body and the soul right now.

As a normal human, that might have been easier to accomplish. Then again, I don't know how well her magical ability would have worked without being transformed. Exactly how much damage do you need to do to an MG with high regeneration to get her to stay down for a few days? I think watching that might not have been pretty.

That's true but now I got curious after all: what do we know about Madoka's idealism? Can it be defined like that? If it's not what we think it is, do we have the right to say "she is not backing up her idealism"?

My take: Essentially, she's like most MG protagonists, and somewhat like Sayaka. Fighting witches and protecting people is good, but fighting other humans is not, because as humans we should be able to get along. Backing it up, would be her confronting Kyoko and trying to talk it out, no matter how many lumps she gets for it. She's essentially saying, "Wars shouldn't happen because people shouldn't kill each other." It's naive, almost even for an idealistic series.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think people are talking too much about the morality of the issues present rather than the facts, or things pretty much set in stone.

The following should all be agreed as truths about this series right now.

• Kyube doesn't share a human's sense of what is wrong or right (Not commenting if he is evil or not).
• Kyube's stated agenda is simply to contract magical girls to fight witches. He may or may not have a larger agenda.
• So far each girl in the series has met unhappiness with the contract. Mami didn't have a choice and was lonely and scared. Kyoko got her family destroyed. Homura is unhappy in general (More specific reasons to be revealed). And now Sayaka is getting broken down as she realizes how flimsy her wish and motivations were for becoming a magical girl.
• Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.
• Kyube has witheld much information to the detrimant of the magical girls (Soul gems containing their souls, bodies now basically puppets). Practical or not, this is information that they would have liked to have known beforehand.
• Homura has an agenda primarily focused with Madoka. She tried to kill Kyube before Madoka made contact and failed. She tried to divulge as little information as possible to keep Madoka uninvolved, and failed.
• Witches are harming people. We don't know their origin and we don't know their purpose. It is clear that this is not a threat that can be left alone. However, due to lack of information, it is not clear whatsoever on what is the best solution available to deal with them.

Almost anything else that is not here is merely pure speculation.

Have no problem with most of what you laid out here except that last one. Yes witch are harming people. But it is not clear that it is a threat that can not be left alone. QB explained the witches in a manner that suit his agenda and thus the scenario he presented may fit what we see but is not the entire truth.

If I were to speculate, the whole system is a vicious cycle and the more MG gets contracted, the more witches gets created (whether or not from MGs or another source is a separate discussion), requiring yet more girls to be contracted to become MGs. The only net gain from the system is an increasing amount of grief seeds bring produced.

There are also a few other facts:
1. QB does not care about the welfare of humans - neither the victims of the witches nor the MG themselves.
2. Witches do not kill on sight.
3. MGs are manipulated and deceived into contracting. Some, would not have contracted after knowing how they can be gruesomely killed in witch's hands like Madoka's reaction after Mami's death; others would have refused know their soul will be extracted from their body; most would not have done so if they know their wish will not turn out the way they wanted.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Have no problem with most of what you laid out here except that last one. Yes witch are harming people. But it is not clear that it is a threat that can not be left alone.

So you have no problem with the witches causing people to commit mass sucide then? You think that's a threat that should be left alone?

QB explained the witches in a manner that suit his agenda and thus the scenario he presented may fit what we see but is not the entire truth.

That is not a fact, that is just your opinion.

Kyubey may have explained the witches in a manner that was entirely honest and factual. We do not know anything to the contrary.

If I were to speculate, the whole system is a vicious cycle and the more MG gets contracted, the more witches gets created (whether or not from MGs or another source is a separate discussion), requiring yet more girls to be contracted to become MGs.

What if you're wrong here? What if magical girls and witches exist separately from one another, and are created independently from one another?

What then?

I've already addressed your worst-case scenario here (by talking about how Kyubey would be evil if he's intentionally playing both sides - magical girls and witches - against one another). Kaijo has also put forward a reasonable condition by which he would view Kyubey as evil.

But the "Kyubey is evil" camp has frankly not demonstrated such flexibility or open-mindedness in turn.

Kaijo and I are willing to play your "What if?" game, and in fact, we've already played it. So when are those of the "Kyubey is evil" camp going to play our "What if?" game?

It's only intellectually honest and fair for you to return the gesture, isn't it?


So... under what conditions would you view Kyubey as not being evil?

There are also a few other facts:
1. QB does not care about the welfare of humans - neither the victims of the witches nor the MG themselves.

This is not a fact. We do not know this as a fact.

This is just your opinion. This is just your personal take on Kyubey that could well be mistaken.

2. Witches do not kill on sight.

Some do not kill on sight, but some others may and probably do.

3. MGs are manipulated and deceived into contracting.

Slightly. Only slightly. The main elements of the contractual deal are put out there.

Oh, and here's a question for you: How is this any worse than in some other magical girl shows where the magical girl familiar forces the targeted girl to become a magical girl? Are all of those familiars "evil" too?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Part of the issue is that this series is named after Madoka, and it is the main hero who is expected to handle things. So far, Madoka has sat from the sidelines, perhaps doing a bit of supporting, but otherwise not affecting much. She seems incredibly idealistic, so much so that she puts Sayaka's life in danger (removing her only way to defend herself). So part of it is that Madoka is trying to work on just idealism, without actually making the hard choices, and she has a certain responsibility as the series main heroine (supposedly; could be a Gen mindfuck, though).

]

I never knew it was a rule that main characters had to be heroic. This show has been pretty much from Madoka's perspective, even if she has been on the sidelines of the battles. It's not stated that the main character has to be a hero anywhere. The main character doesn't have any other responsibility other than simply being the focus of attention in the show.

She's not that idealistic either. Sayaka is more idealistic than her. Madoka is the one acknowledged Homura's warning and thought it be best to not become a MG. Sayaka is continuously getting her more involved because she did become a MG.

It's not so much idealism that prevents her form making the hard choices, but rather fear. She's too afraid to make the choices.

But again, this is perhaps simply a difference on perspectives.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If Madoka had contracted prior to Mami's death, Mami would probably still be alive. Sayaka kinda notes something along this line in her hillside chat to Madoka.

Sayaka: "I could have lost my two best friends, you and Hitomi."
*snip some conversation*
Madoka: "So you don't regret it at all?"
Sayaka: "I guess if there is anything I regret.. It's waiting so long. After all, if I had made up my mind quicker, I could have fought that witch alongside Mami and maybe she wouldn't have died."
(Madoka has a bit of an interesting flashback here)

So a part of it is Sayaka having contracted and saved Madoka's life. Friends count on each other to help them when things are down. Sayaka has done that for Madoka, and thus it's Madoka's turn to do that for Sayaka. Sayaka took on a heavy burden so Madoka wouldn't have to. Once more, Madoka waffled while Sayaka made the hard choice.

Hmm. Homura was there to help Madoka out if Sayaka didn't intervene. She was right there outside when the fight was over. Don't believe Sayaka was ultimately necessary in this scene. And yes, Mami probably could have lived if Madoka and/or sayaka had made a contract earlier. But these two things are ultimately irrelevant.

Madoka doesn't owe Sayaka anything just because she saved her life. As Homura was saying in episode 7 around 6:03, "Don't confuse gratitude with responsibility. There is no way you can save her. You don't owe her anything. you don't have to pay her back. Don't get into matters that don't concern you."

It may be cold, but it's the truth.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Another part is that people have argued that Madoka's idealism is supposed to be what saves the day. If this means anything, then her idealism has to actually be shown to be effective in helping people. So far, it hasn't. We can hardly say, "Great job, Madoka! You saved the day with your idealism! Of course, Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko, and Homura had to die first, but better late than never, eh?"

Hmm. Again I don't think Madoka has been very idealistic since Mami's death. She's been confused and afraid. All she knows is that she doesn't want anyone else to get hurt. Her wishing Sayaka not to fight Kyoko is not idealistic, that's just being sensible.

If she does end up saving the day at the very end, then that will be because she was finally able to find a clear resolution. She doesn't have one right now, so her current ideals cannot be the ones that ultimately save the day .

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If Madoka is gonna be a good friend and earn her place in this series, she needs to really earn it. Sayaka is essentially counting on Madoka to be an anchor, and Madoka can't earn her place if she has to step over Sayaka's crazed and/or dead body to it.

So if I could sum it up, it's "Hey, girl, your friend is having a tough time; what are you doing to do about it? You already had one friend die; how many more will it take for you to get your act together? Everyone else is saving your ass and letting you avoid the hard decisions. Isn't about time you did something in return?"

To be fair, I think this series is trying to teach Madoka that. In most superhero shows where the main hero is hesitant or afraid, it's a point of growth where they realize they to bite the bullet and step up, because it depends on them. Sorta like Shinji in Evangelion, another whiner who didn't want to really get involved.

Madoka has done everything and more a good friend should do. Becoming a magical girl just for Sayaka doesn't make her a better friend. That just makes her an idiot.

The only one creating conflict in the story for the most part right now, has been Sayaka. Had she not become a magical girl, Madoka could have possibly gone back to her old life.

Comparing Madoka to Shinji is laughable to me because their situations are completely different. In NGE, there was NO ONE else who was able to pilot the Evangelion. If he didn't pilot the eva, game over, everyone's dead. That's not the case in Madoka. Shinji wasn't a hero because he chose to be. He was forced to because not only would other people die, he would also die if he didn't pilot. He was also looking for the approval of his father and people around him. Madoka and Shinji have completely different motivations for their actions.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I do want to address this one point of yours, because "intention" requires knowing their thoughts, which would be speculation.

Factually, speaking, both Sayaka and Kyoko got what they wanted. Anything beyond that is speculation. It's almost as if the expectation is that, in order for the wish to be considered valid, then everything has to suddenly go right in their lives. I think that's unrealistic, because regardless of wish, good and bad things will still happen. You can't blame any of the bad stuff on the wish unless there is a clear direct connection, which there isn't.

Uhm. Unless you're going to argue that both of them wished for something else other than something that would make their lives just a little happier at the very least, I can't see how what I said is speculation. The point is, after making the wish, both ultimately did not find happiness in those wishes (As of the moment). Kyoko's father killed her family and committed suicide. Game over. Sayaka psychologically feels she cannot be with Kamijo anymore and that the love her life is about to be stolen. She stated it herself. Game over. That's it.

I'm not saying the wish in of itself caused harm, but rather that their lives afterwards weren't as peachy as they had hoped. Unless again, you're going to somehow argue that they made wishes that were not linked to their own happiness in any manner.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

]I'm not saying the wish in of itself caused harm, but rather that their lives afterwards weren't as peachy as they had hoped. Unless again, you're going to somehow argue that they made wishes that were not linked to their own happiness in any manner.

My point of contention is the assumption that the miracles are specifically crafted to not cause happiness, which is speculation with no proof besides flimsy correlations.

Also, of course the wishes are linked with their happiness; by Sayaka and Kyouko's own admissions, they were happy. However, to expect a single wish to cause a perpetual, unfaltering happiness is not very realistic; everything outside of the scope of the wish are the wishmaker's own responsibility.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

My point of contention is the assumption that the miracles are specifically crafted to not cause happiness, which is speculation with no proof besides flimsy correlations.

Also, of course the wishes are linked with their happiness; by Sayaka and Kyouko's own admissions, they were happy. However, to expect a single wish to cause a perpetual, unfaltering happiness is not very realistic; everything outside of the scope of the wish are the wishmaker's own responsibility.

Which is fine. There's not enough evidence to assert that. I was just saying that so far, from all the girls presented, this is what happened and we may be able to speculate based upon this, but we cannot assert something like "wishes = unhappiness."

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I never knew it was a rule that main characters had to be heroic. This show has been pretty much from Madoka's perspective, even if she has been on the sidelines of the battles. It's not stated that the main character has to be a hero anywhere. The main character doesn't have any other responsibility other than simply being the focus of attention in the show.

I suppose that depends on your expectations. Do you expect Madoka to become an MG and somehow save the day at the end?

Hmm. Homura was there to help Madoka out if Sayaka didn't intervene. She was right there outside when the fight was over. Don't believe Sayaka was ultimately necessary in this scene. And yes, Mami probably could have lived if Madoka and/or sayaka had made a contract earlier. But these two things are ultimately irrelevant.

We don't know if Homura would have arrived in time. So expecting that Homura would have saved Madoka, is speculation. Madoka was being stretched, crying out in pain, so even if Homura was a minute later, it might have been too late. Still, Sayaka did save her.

Madoka doesn't owe Sayaka anything just because she saved her life.

It may be cold, but it's the truth.

This is true. As a coldly logical person myself, I would agree. But if you continually do things for a friend of yours, and they don't do much if anything in return even though they could, are they really a friend? As I understood it, friends are people who are there for each other.

Hmm. Again I don't think Madoka has been very idealistic since Mami's death. She's been confused and afraid. All she knows is that she doesn't want anyone else to get hurt. Her wishing Sayaka not to fight Kyoko is not idealistic, that's just being sensible.

It is sensible to tell your friend not to fight someone who has clearly stated a desire to let people come to harm, when your friend wants to protect people?

Madoka has done everything and more a good friend should do. Becoming a magical girl just for Sayaka doesn't make her a better friend. That just makes her an idiot.

So, Madoka would have been an idiot if she became an MG and fought together with Mami? Madoka and Sayaka clearly feel the guilt from that. I dunno, I disagree that becoming an MG makes one an idiot. There is a clear danger from witches from where I sit, so I applaud those who take up the thankless task. Madoka is back in the position that she was in with Mami. Will Sayaka die if she continues to fight alone? Is it Sayaka's fault then, and Madoka should just let Sayaka die?

The only one creating conflict in the story for the most part right now, has been Sayaka. Had she not become a magical girl, Madoka could have possibly gone back to her old life.

While true, this might have meant Hitomi died, among others(there is still a witch problem). I would argue our heroes aren't very heroic, if they leave people to die.

Comparing Madoka to Shinji is laughable to me because their situations are completely different. In NGE, there was NO ONE else who was able to pilot the Evangelion. If he didn't pilot the eva, game over, everyone's dead.

Rei would have piloted. Maybe she would have lost. Maybe she would have won. But there was another.

I'm not saying the wish in of itself caused harm, but rather that their lives afterwards weren't as peachy as they had hoped. Unless again, you're going to somehow argue that they made wishes that were not linked to their own happiness in any manner.

Had Kyoko not made the wish, the family would have starved to death. Or perhaps broken up, since the father was obviously not bringing money in. Maybe Kyoko's life wasn't as peachy sometime afterward, but her life wasn't exactly great before.

I find it to be a troubling common theme in arguing for wishes and MG's to have terrible lives, because we fail to consider what would have happened, had the wish not been made. If bad things were going to happen either way, then it is unwise to blame the wish and the MG life for it.

It would be like me, blaming the next bad thing in my life because I posted here. Good and bad things will continue to happen; without direct connections, it's ludicrous to blame random events that came before.

*Especially* when the bad things are a direct result of the person's own thoughts and actions.

Nothing in the series has showed us that a girl can't be an MG, and still live a life they find enjoyable. It would pretty much seem to be up to them, how to live their life, the same as any other human. If I make bad decisions that lead to bad things, that is my fault; not because some cosmic force is out to get me. Kyoko eats well, plays games, enjoys using her power, and despite her tragic backstory, has built a decent life for herself that she enjoys.

So despite "bad things" she is still relatively happy with how she has lived. In fact, it's admirable that she has crawled her way up from a possible despair.

Had Sayaka not made her wish, what would have happened? Kamijou goes into a depression, which makes Sayaka feel worse. Perhaps she confesses, but in his hurt state, he pushes her away and wishes she would just go away.

And we'd be right back in the same situation of an angsting Sayaka, who is still upset, despite no wish and no MG life.

We don't know, do we? We can't tell what the future holds. Bad and good things will keep happening regardless. So whether one makes a wish and takes up an MG life, the good and bad that follows is up to them. The same as anyone of us.

[Reckoner]

Oh gosh Kaijo I apologize ahead of time for quoting so many lines.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I suppose that depends on your expectations. Do you expect Madoka to become an MG and somehow save the day at the end?

I don't really hold expectations for her. I've been wondering this whole time actually if it would be at all possible that Madoka never becomes a magical girl in this series. That would be pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We don't know if Homura would have arrived in time. So expecting that Homura would have saved Madoka, is speculation. Madoka was being stretched, crying out in pain, so even if Homura was a minute later, it might have been too late. Still, Sayaka did save her.

She was there already, but like I said this doesn't matter to what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

This is true. As a coldly logical person myself, I would agree. But if you continually do things for a friend of yours, and they don't do much if anything in return even though they could, are they really a friend? As I understood it, friends are people who are there for each other.

Well lets have this scenario. You have a good friend who saves your life because he bought a gun illegally and shot someone who was about to kill you. Now, your friend is having problems because he started getting involved with bad people who are trying to kill him. You have two choices as a friend, buy a gun and go actively help protect him, or just simply be there for him and offer him support. I think this analogy is very apt for this situation.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It is sensible to tell your friend not to fight someone who has clearly stated a desire to let people come to harm, when your friend wants to protect people?

Madoka thinks they should be able to talk it out in a more calm manner. Judging from episode 7, it seems like they could've reached somewhat of an understanding had they done so. Remember, it wasn't just Kyoko who provoked Sayaka, Sayaka also provoked Kyoko into conflict.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, Madoka would have been an idiot if she became an MG and fought together with Mami? Madoka and Sayaka clearly feel the guilt from that. I dunno, I disagree that becoming an MG makes one an idiot. There is a clear danger from witches from where I sit, so I applaud those who take up the thankless task. Madoka is back in the position that she was in with Mami. Will Sayaka die if she continues to fight alone? Is it Sayaka's fault then, and Madoka should just let Sayaka die?

No, becoming a magical girl for the sake one person alone, makes one an idiot IMO. This is a decision that should come from one's self, and not be influenced by what other people are saying or doing.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

While true, this might have meant Hitomi died, among others(there is still a witch problem). I would argue our heroes aren't very heroic, if they leave people to die.

Which is fine because I currently don't believe there are any heroes or "good guys" in this series.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Rei would have piloted. Maybe she would have lost. Maybe she would have won. But there was another.

In the words of John Mcenroe, "You cannot be serious!"

Rei was physically incapable of piloting the Evangelion really... It's like telling a man with broken arms to win a fist fight against Muhammed Ali.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Had Kyoko not made the wish, the family would have starved to death. Or perhaps broken up, since the father was obviously not bringing money in. Maybe Kyoko's life wasn't as peachy sometime afterward, but her life wasn't exactly great before.

I find it to be a troubling common theme in arguing for wishes and MG's to have terrible lives, because we fail to consider what would have happened, had the wish not been made. If bad things were going to happen either way, then it is unwise to blame the wish and the MG life for it.

I think you misunderstood me on what exactly I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to state that the wishes themselves lead to unhappiness. All I'm saying is that ultimately, the girls were not happy after the fact. It did not ultimately, for each girl, improve their situation in a manner that they probably hoped for. This is a fact because both Kyoko and Sayaka are currently not happy with what has happened. That's all I'm stating. Whether or not the wishes themselves actually cause harm or it was their actions after the wish, is not what I was trying to point out at all.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Nothing in the series has showed us that a girl can't be an MG, and still live a life they find enjoyable. It would pretty much seem to be up to them, how to live their life, the same as any other human. If I make bad decisions that lead to bad things, that is my fault; not because some cosmic force is out to get me. Kyoko eats well, plays games, enjoys using her power, and despite her tragic backstory, has built a decent life for herself that she enjoys.

I never stated anything directly against this in my point. I actually agree that it is mostly their actions afterwards that lead to their harm. I speculate that these so called "miracles" aren't as miraculous as one would hope, and that may be a point that Urobuchi Gen is trying to get across maybe.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Oh gosh Kaijo I apologize ahead of time for quoting so many lines.

No worries, I'm used to it.

She was there already, but like I said this doesn't matter to what I was trying to say.

Well, we don't know how much later she showed up, and whether she just arrived. Judging by the end of episode 7, Homura arrived quite some time after Sayaka had engaged the witch.

Well lets have this scenario. You have a good friend who saves your life because he bought a gun illegally and shot someone who was about to kill you. Now, your friend is having problems because he started getting involved with bad people who are trying to kill him. You have two choices as a friend, buy a gun and go actively help protect him, or just simply be there for him and offer him support. I think this analogy is very apt for this situation.

I suppose our definition of friendship might differ, then. It's fairly difficult to actually protect someone with a gun, and there would be other options I would pursue, but for the sake of your analogy, I would buy a gun and protect him. To me, that's what friendship is; the willingness to stick your neck out for someone. For an acquaintance, probably not. But for a friend, yes.

Madoka thinks they should be able to talk it out in a more calm manner. Judging from episode 7, it seems like they could've reached somewhat of an understanding had they done so. Remember, it wasn't just Kyoko who provoked Sayaka, Sayaka also provoked Kyoko into conflict.

Kyoko is willing to talk once the revelation was made. But we're working from 20/20 hindsight here, and we can't do that. We can only look at things as they happen. Kyoko deliberately stopped Sayaka from killing the familiar. She deliberately said to let it feed on humans until it became a witch (whether kill or otherwise). Sayaka wants to protect the people of the town.

What compromise or negotiation could there be? And keep in mind, while you're talking things out, that familiar is out there, doing what it wants to ordinary innocent humans.

And even now, it could be iffy. Kyoko said to Homura "It's okay, because it's a witch, not a familiar." That seems to hint that she still might stop Sayaka from killing a familiar. What do you propose for negotiation?

No, becoming a magical girl for the sake one person alone, makes one an idiot IMO. This is a decision that should come from one's self, and not be influenced by what other people are saying or doing.

Well, I guess we would disagree on this, then, as you can see from my friendship response above. Had it been me in Madoka's place, and Sayaka made the contract, I probably would have, too, so I could help protect her.

In the words of John Mcenroe, "You cannot be serious!"

Rei was physically incapable of piloting the Evangelion really... It's like telling a man with broken arms to win a fist fight against Muhammed Ali.

That would be speculation.

And even later in the series, Shinji continues to pilot, even after Rei is up to par and Asuka is on the team. So he could have stepped down if he wanted.

I think you misunderstood me on what exactly I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to state that the wishes themselves lead to unhappiness. All I'm saying is that ultimately, the girls were not happy after the fact. It did not ultimately, for each girl, improve their situation in a manner that they probably hoped for. This is a fact because both Kyoko and Sayaka are currently not happy with what has happened. That's all I'm stating. Whether or not the wishes themselves actually cause harm or it was their actions after the wish, is not what I was trying to point out at all.

Ah, I think I see. But it's important to note that Kyoko did end up happy long after the fact. Mami ended up happy, long after the fact, when Madoka made the decision to stand by her.

I never stated anything directly against this in my point. I actually agree that it is mostly their actions afterwards that lead to their harm. I speculate that these so called "miracles" aren't as miraculous as one would hope, and that may be a point that Urobuchi Gen is trying to get across maybe.

Perhaps. If Gen is trying to show that, he hasn't done a good job yet, in my opinion. The only way this would be true, is if Kyoko was right about hope creating an equal sadness. And as far as we know, that's just speculation on her part.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Perhaps. If Gen is trying to show that, he hasn't done a good job yet, in my opinion. The only way this would be true, is if Kyoko was right about hope creating an equal sadness. And as far as we know, that's just speculation on her part.

Well, if the point is "miracles are not the cure-all of all your problems", that's already been conveyed aplenty.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I suppose that depends on your expectations. Do you expect Madoka to become an MG and somehow save the day at the end?

For an audience of a show? Absolutely. From the logical perspective of the character's personality and situation? No.

It is like death flag. We all know if someone talks about getting married after the battle, they will die. However, talking about getting married do not make them weaker or more susceptible to injury.

For Madoka's case, she has no pressing need to become a MG. She knows MG life sucks and scare of it, and only a big enough wish/ miracle will be enough to even that out. She does not have such wish yet. Maybe the next coming up pressing need will be Sayaka at the blink of death, and that depends on how it turns out. In Mami's case, the death is so fast that they are not able to react. Had the witches torture Mami for a prolong period of time, Madoka/ Sayaka might have turned to a MG back then.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

This is true. As a coldly logical person myself, I would agree. But if you continually do things for a friend of yours, and they don't do much if anything in return even though they could, are they really a friend? As I understood it, friends are people who are there for each other.

But she did not necessary need to become a MG to help Sayaka back. You are friends with a good cook who constantly treat you for dinner. That doesn't mean you need to pay him back by making food for him. As long as you are there for him when he needs you, you are a good enough friend.

At this stage, Madoka would help Sayaka more if she could somehow make Sayaka and Kamijo become a couple, rather than becoming a MG.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, Madoka would have been an idiot if she became an MG and fought together with Mami? Madoka and Sayaka clearly feel the guilt from that. I dunno, I disagree that becoming an MG makes one an idiot. There is a clear danger from witches from where I sit, so I applaud those who take up the thankless task. Madoka is back in the position that she was in with Mami. Will Sayaka die if she continues to fight alone? Is it Sayaka's fault then, and Madoka should just let Sayaka die?

Not with Mami, as she did not truly witness the horror of being a MG. Witnessing it first hand and talking about it is entirely different. After that and if she wish for a cake to become a MG? then Yes she is an idiot.

Also, I would also applaud her if she becomes a MG for taking such thankless task, but that didn't make her not an idiot.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Ah, I think I see. But it's important to note that Kyoko did end up happy

Do you have a quote to back that up?She's accepted her fate but I don't recall her saying she's be happy about it.