[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Valkama]

Arguing with only the VN is rather lame because R07 unintentionally left in enough wiggle room into his story for multiple different culprits to be possible. There is really no point in arguing here because it's impossible to disprove either side with your conditions. Although there is this:

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!EP4
This applies to all games!!!EP4
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.EP5(it refers to the people count)
Therefore there are 16 people on the island during games 1-4.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Lol, thank you for reminding me about that red, but despite what you think this red doesn't destroy my point, it strengthens it.
The contradiction here is only created if you already assume that Beatrice is Shannon.
But what if it's someone else?
For example if you assume that Beatrice is Jessica, that red truth makes sense.
Battler's sin was against Shannon, not against Jessica, therefore "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice."
Jessica is one of Shannons only friends, so it's only natural that Shannon told Jessica all about it. And Jessica is known to be jealous to other people's relationships.

So... hum... you support a Jessicatrice culprit theory? Well, then I'm interested in hearing how it works since Jessica is supposed to be dead in the second twilight in Ep 2, couldn't kill Nanjo in Ep 3 and I won't go in Ep 4 because it can be she committed suicide.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

At least she observes them both, when she gathers everyone in one room to greet them.

No, Erika never saw Shannon and Kanon together. The manga explained this point in Ep 8 in great details so that it makes sense although, if it can cheer you up, prior to that manga chapter, that point was discussed here in great lenghts because many of us were also fooled into thinking she saw them. Haruguma posted a good summary of the explanation here... somewhere... -_-
I can't track it down, sorry, but I'm sure someone else here is better than me at tracking posts.
That's what I mean when I was telling you that the extra material is developing the official explanation so that it makes sense and leaves alternate theories always less space.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Correct me if I'm wrong, eX_ploit, but it looks as if your position is that the scene in ep 2 with Genji, Kinzo, Beatrice, Battler and the golden butterflies is not a fantasy scene, and that "Kinzo" was really the culprit disguising his or her voice.

Even if we disregard what Ryukishi has said about there being no butterflies, the description of the butterflies in that scene is simply not natural.

Nothing unnatural here really.
Battler has only seen these butterflies for a brief moment, so his impression that they were shining gold only comes from the golden glow of the study itself.
And that glow of the study could really be just golden confetti.
And the reason why all butterflies flew out of the study is that there is some chemical there which repels them, so they left as soon as an opening appeared.

Copypaste from wikipedia

A butterfly's sense of taste, 200 times stronger than humans,[27] is coordinated by chemoreceptors on the tarsi, or feet, which work only on contact, and are used to determine whether an egg-laying insect's offspring will be able to feed on a leaf before eggs are laid on it.[28] Many butterflies use chemical signals, pheromones, and specialized scent scales (androconia) and other structures (coremata or "hair pencils" in the Danaidae) are developed in some species.

And it's mentioned many times that the study smells strangely, and there are many reactives there.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

If we take the red from Alliance as valid, we know that No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. and No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! . Battler's narration in that scene says that "And, ...... there was a sofa like a reception chair in front of the study desk, .........where I could see Grandfather's back."


But even if we disregard that too, can you explain...
- who was the person in that scene who pretended to be Kinzo?

What he saw there was really grandfathers back. Dead grandfathers back to be precise. That red only mentions mistaking Kinzo by sight, not by voice.
The voice there could be produced by the same person playing Beatrice.
After all, ventriloquism is nothing mysterious.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

- who was Beatrice in that scene?

Ok. My assumption is that it's Jessica.
Next you may ask "but she was killed earlier in that episode".
So my theory on that is as follows.
Jessica's death status was never confirmed in red in this episode.
Even though detective has witnessed a body whith knife sticking out of the back and a pool of blood, which obviously means that the body is dead, he never checked if that body was really Jessica's.
Her parents were already dead by that point so noone was interested enough in that corpse.
However there is this red
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
which you can mistake for Jessica's proclaimation of death.
However that part of the sentence is not a statement, statement is the second part.
While the first part is just referring to the event, whose name is "Discovery of Jessica's corpse"

And then it get's really interesting.
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included
In the actual statement about Jessica, the word corpse is excluded from red, so it becomes simply "Jessica is also included"
Which means that there is an alive Jessica in that room when they discover the body.

So, to sum things up, Jessica has killed Kanon, then disguised his body as her own, and started hiding somewhere in the room. That also explains why Kanon's body has disappeared.

You could also argue that people who discovered body searched all of the room but didn't find anyone hiding.
And my answer is that at least Rosa is known for sure to be one of the culprits in this episode.
And she was one of the searching people, so she could deliberately search Jessica's hiding place and pretend there was noone there.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Ok. My assumption is that it's Jessica.
Next you may ask "but she was killed earlier in that episode".
So my theory on that is as follows.
Jessica's death status was never confirmed in red in this episode.
Even though detective has witnessed a body whith knife sticking out of the back and a pool of blood, which obviously means that the body is dead, he never checked if that body was really Jessica's.
Her parents were already dead by that point so noone was interested enough in that corpse.
However there is this red
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
which you can mistake for Jessica's proclaimation of death.
However that part of the sentence is not a statement, statement is the second part.
While the first part is just referring to the event, whose name is "Discovery of Jessica's corpse"

And then it get's really interesting.
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included
In the actual statement about Jessica, the word corpse is excluded from red, so it becomes simply "Jessica is also included"
Which means that there is an alive Jessica in that room when they discover the body.

So, to sum things up, Jessica has killed Kanon, then disguised his body as her own, and started hiding somewhere in the room. That also explains why Kanon's body has disappeared.

You could also argue that people who discovered body searched all of the room but didn't find anyone hiding.
And my answer is that at least Rosa is known for sure to be one of the culprits in this episode.
And she was one of the searching people, so she could deliberately search Jessica's hiding place and pretend there was noone there.

Impossible. Beatrice says only before listing people. Anyone not included in that list is therefore not in the room. The point of that is to show living people and dead people don't follow the red the same way.

[AuraTwilight]

That red just states what it states.
Magic couldn't revive sakutarou because magic doesn't work. Or because Sakutarou isn't something that can be revived.
Pulling some other meaning from that sentence is a stretch.

Ange revives Sakutarou. Sakutarou is an entity that Beatrice, Maria, and Ange all consider a being that can be 'dead' and 'alive' and 'revived'. Considering that Sakutarou is described as 'Another MARIA', there's clearly something we can take away from this.

Isn't shkanon actually based on suicide at some moments?
But I of course would not use that, because it doesn't make any sense.

Why are you sure that Erika didn't kill him?
After all we already know that she has a gun, and that she already killed all others who pretended to be dead.
So after she figures out that the only place where Battler can hide is the closet, she fires her gun through the closets door and kills Kanon who is hiding there.

1) Shkanon doesn't technically rely on suicides so much as Shannon-and-or-Kanon culprit theory; and even then it's more faked deaths.

2) Erika metaphorically shooting her Red/Blue Truth gun during her duel with Beatrice doesn't cut it; especially since you've been ignoring the metaphorical narrative the whole time in this argument.

Especially since Erika was SURPRISED by his not being there/dead. Do you think Erika is too dumb to realize guns kill people when she shoots them?

At least she observes them both, when she gathers everyone in one room to greet them.

Not according to the manga. Everyone is positioned in such a way that she can't view everyone and accepts everyone else's testimony that Kanon's in the back.

"great many humans" doesn't equal "all humans"
and "no one escapes, all die" just refers to those "great many humans"

"All" means "all." "No one escapes" means "No one escapes." But people escaped, and not all of them died.

Lol, thank you for reminding me about that red, but despite what you think this red doesn't destroy my point, it strengthens it.
The contradiction here is only created if you already assume that Beatrice is Shannon.
But what if it's someone else?
For example if you assume that Beatrice is Jessica, that red truth makes sense.
Battler's sin was against Shannon, not against Jessica, therefore "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice."
Jessica is one of Shannons only friends, so it's only natural that Shannon told Jessica all about it. And Jessica is known to be jealous to other people's relationships.

It doesn't matter; Whether Beatrice is Shannon, or Jessica, or whoever else, they take it personally.

And, of course, Beatrice didn't exist six years ago, so the problem I pointed out still exists. Identities can be born and killed under the red. Beatrice's ultimatum to Battler confirms it.

Oh, yea, and thanks to GoldenLand, I forgot to address that part; the scene where Battler sees Beatrice in Episode 2 occurs after the stroke of midnight, so the bomb had already destroyed the island by that point. The game is over, Battler's authority is suspended, and he is treated to a fantasy scene because his character is dead.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Nothing unnatural here really. Battler has only seen these butterflies for a brief moment, so his impression that they were shining gold only comes from the golden glow of the study itself.
And that glow of the study could really be just golden confetti.
And the reason why all butterflies flew out of the study is that there is some chemical there which repels them, so they left as soon as an opening appeared.

If Battler's perspective is reliable, I don't think that's possible. He says that it's the butterflies which are shining gold ("a swarm of butterflies, shining gold") and that they're "almost" like golden confetti. Again, if his perspective is reliable, they can't actually be golden confetti. If Battler's perspective is unreliable, there's no problem, but it seems to be that your position is that he is reliable at that point.

Of course, if Knox's rules were to apply, and I'm not saying they are since it's never really made clear in the series, then It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

If the butterflies really are there and are present in quantities sufficient that Battler says they fill the study, how did they get there? At the very minimum, Rosa went to the study earlier on in the story to borrow the gun, so the door was open at that point, and the butterflies would have flown out. So who put the butterflies in the study between that point and Battler entering the room, and why?

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

What he saw there was really grandfathers back. Dead grandfathers back to be precise. That red only mentions mistaking Kinzo by sight, not by voice.
The voice there could be produced by the same person playing Beatrice.
After all, ventriloquism is nothing mysterious.

If it was the back of Kinzo's corpse, that would satisfy the red of No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.. Battler saw Kinzo's back, so the back has to belong to Kinzo.

The red of No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! is not limited to sight, however. It could also cover voices. I think a fake Kinzo voice produced by a ventriloquist would run into that red.

If we were going by Knox's decalogue (which, again, I'm not saying we are), I would also be wondering if ventriloquism would run into Knox. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Is there evidence that, say, Jessica is a skilled ventriloquist? You'd need quite a bit of skill in order to talk to Battler while also pulling off Kinzo's lines.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Ok. My assumption is that it's Jessica.
Next you may ask "but she was killed earlier in that episode".
So my theory on that is as follows.
Jessica's death status was never confirmed in red in this episode.
Even though detective has witnessed a body whith knife sticking out of the back and a pool of blood, which obviously means that the body is dead, he never checked if that body was really Jessica's.
Her parents were already dead by that point so noone was interested enough in that corpse.
However there is this red
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
which you can mistake for Jessica's proclaimation of death.
However that part of the sentence is not a statement, statement is the second part.
While the first part is just referring to the event, whose name is "Discovery of Jessica's corpse"

And then it get's really interesting.
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included
In the actual statement about Jessica, the word corpse is excluded from red, so it becomes simply "Jessica is also included"
Which means that there is an alive Jessica in that room when they discover the body.

So, to sum things up, Jessica has killed Kanon, then disguised his body as her own, and started hiding somewhere in the room. That also explains why Kanon's body has disappeared.

You could also argue that people who discovered body searched all of the room but didn't find anyone hiding.
And my answer is that at least Rosa is known for sure to be one of the culprits in this episode.
And she was one of the searching people, so she could deliberately search Jessica's hiding place and pretend there was noone there.

Huh, that's an interesting theory. I'll look over it. I think it doesn't work, though.

Although the Jessica is alive and hiding theory might have worked just based on Jessica is also included, the previous red confirms that her corpse is indeed in the room. It's not true that "the first part is just referring to the event, whose name is "Discovery of Jessica's corpse"".

The actual wording there is "When Jessica's corpse was discovered" which confirms that the corpse really is Jessica's and that it was discovered. I don't think they would have been able to say that if Jessica was not really dead. In ep 6, when a fake corpse is being discussed in a similar way, the word corpse is said in quotes ("The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined"). We also have the red, in regard to that room, that No one is hiding. Which means that even if Jessica were alive, she could not be hiding in that room, regardless of who might be searching for her and pretending she's not there.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Valkama

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!EP4
This applies to all games!!!EP4

Time of red's proclaimation is important.
Because it's proclaimed at ep4, that means that "This applies to all games" which exist at that time, so only ep1-4.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

So... hum... you support a Jessicatrice culprit theory? Well, then I'm interested in hearing how it works since Jessica is supposed to be dead in the second twilight in Ep 2, couldn't kill Nanjo in Ep 3 and I won't go in Ep 4 because it can be she committed suicide.

Read my post above for ep2 explaination.

In ep3 it's not required for her to kill Nanjo.
A possible explaination is that when they observed George's body, he had a fatal wound, but was not dead yet.
Then he stood up, and with his last strength killed Nanjo, dying himself after that.
So, when Eva-Beatrice announces his death, he is really dead at that time.

And in ep4 she didn't commit suicide lol, because that doesn't make sense.
Explaination here is the same as ep2.
She killed Kanon, disguised his corpse as her own, and fled.
That's why Battler cannot find Kanon's corpse.

Originally Posted by Valkama

Impossible. Beatrice says only before listing people. Anyone not included in that list is therefore not in the room. The point of that is to show living people and dead people don't follow the red the same way.

I didn't quite get what you meant there.
This sentence

Beatrice says only before listing people.

looks like it has some word missing in it.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Ange revives Sakutarou. Sakutarou is an entity that Beatrice, Maria, and Ange all consider a being that can be 'dead' and 'alive' and 'revived'. Considering that Sakutarou is described as 'Another MARIA', there's clearly something we can take away from this.

All of that never happens in red or in front of detective.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

2) Erika metaphorically shooting her Red/Blue Truth gun during her duel with Beatrice doesn't cut it; especially since you've been ignoring the metaphorical narrative the whole time in this argument.

I don't claim that this fantasy scene is a proof for my theory.
My theory works even without it.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Especially since Erika was SURPRISED by his not being there/dead. Do you think Erika is too dumb to realize guns kill people when she shoots them?

Why do you assume that fantasy Erika has the same knowledge as gameboard Erika?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Not according to the manga. Everyone is positioned in such a way that she can't view everyone and accepts everyone else's testimony that Kanon's in the back.

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga.
She accepts testimony that he's in the back without seeing him?
Are we really talking about Erika here?
Doesn't she have perfect sight and hearing? And always looking out for clues?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

"All" means "all." "No one escapes" means "No one escapes." But people escaped, and not all of them died.

You are simply taking words out of context here.
Just because a word by itself can mean something, doesn't allow you to discard the rest. The same goes for sentences.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.
There is no delay between these 2 sentences, they are simply said in succession by one person, so it's clear from that wording that they both refer to the same group of people.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It doesn't matter; Whether Beatrice is Shannon, or Jessica, or whoever else, they take it personally.

Doesn't match the story. If Beatrice really took it personally Battler would be among the first to die.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And, of course, Beatrice didn't exist six years ago, so the problem I pointed out still exists. Identities can be born and killed under the red. Beatrice's ultimatum to Battler confirms it.

You are misquoting the red again here.
The exact red was
Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
which has completely different meaning.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oh, yea, and thanks to GoldenLand, I forgot to address that part; the scene where Battler sees Beatrice in Episode 2 occurs after the stroke of midnight, so the bomb had already destroyed the island by that point. The game is over, Battler's authority is suspended, and he is treated to a fantasy scene because his character is dead.

The part of that scene which I describe didn't happen after midnight.
Midnight happens right in the middle of that scene, and that's when magic really starts happening, Kinzo starts walking and talking to Battler, and portal to hell opens.
But before midnight none of that happens.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

If Battler's perspective is reliable, I don't think that's possible. He says that it's the butterflies which are shining gold ("a swarm of butterflies, shining gold") and that they're "almost" like golden confetti. Again, if his perspective is reliable, they can't actually be golden confetti. If Battler's perspective is unreliable, there's no problem, but it seems to be that your position is that he is reliable at that point.

Battler being reliable doesn't mean that he can't be tricked. It simply means that he doesn't lie to the reader, and truthfully describes what he sees and thinks.
As I said, impression that butterflies are shining gold could simply be from the golden glow of study itself.

and that they're "almost" like golden confetti

You misunderstood this part, he's not talking about butterflies there.
He's talking about study itself.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Of course, if Knox's rules were to apply, and I'm not saying they are since it's never really made clear in the series, then It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

Unknown is the key here.
It's simply something that smells bad.
And butterflies have 200 times stronger smell sense than humans.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

If the butterflies really are there and are present in quantities sufficient that Battler says they fill the study, how did they get there? At the very minimum, Rosa went to the study earlier on in the story to borrow the gun, so the door was open at that point, and the butterflies would have flown out. So who put the butterflies in the study between that point and Battler entering the room, and why?

They were simply brought in a large bottle or something by Jessica and released right before Battler arrived.
And the reason why she did that was simply to shock Battler and make him more believing that she is a witch.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

The red of No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! is not limited to sight, however. It could also cover voices. I think a fake Kinzo voice produced by a ventriloquist would run into that red.

Disguise is not a word that you can apply to voices.
And you can't really say that Battler mistook someone for Kinzo. He saw Kinzo, and it was Kinzo, so he assumed that the voice was also his.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

If we were going by Knox's decalogue (which, again, I'm not saying we are), I would also be wondering if ventriloquism would run into Knox. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Is there evidence that, say, Jessica is a skilled ventriloquist? You'd need quite a bit of skill in order to talk to Battler while also pulling off Kinzo's lines.

Kinzo here only ever says 3 sentences. And the first 2 he says even before Battler can see Beatrice.
And I don't think that we need any extra proof for ventriloqism after we already know that whoever plays Beatrice, has very good acting talent, and voice changing talent. Ventriloqism is not far from that.
And by the way these voice changing clues were the reason, that I started suspecting Jessica in the first place. After all she is a singer in a girl's band.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Huh, that's an interesting theory. I'll look over it. I think it doesn't work, though.

Although the Jessica is alive and hiding theory might have worked just based on Jessica is also included, the previous red confirms that her corpse is indeed in the room. It's not true that "the first part is just referring to the event, whose name is "Discovery of Jessica's corpse"".

The actual wording there is "When Jessica's corpse was discovered" which confirms that the corpse really is Jessica's and that it was discovered. I don't think they would have been able to say that if Jessica was not really dead.

You are making the same mistake as AuraTwilight.
You are taking words out of context, which is not permitted.
For example assume this red truth
No one escapes, all die.
If we just assume that its true without considering context, then that means that all people on the planet have died.
But if you look where it's used and how it's used then you realize that there is a previous red truth, which establishes context
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
and this No one escapes, all die. refers to people mentioned in that sentence.
So just because a pair of words "Jessica's corpse" appears in that red, does not itself mean that Jessica is dead.
The meaning of "Jessica's corpse" is overshadowed by meaning of "Discovery of Jessica's corpse", and I even talked to a japanese translator about this, and he says that this interpretation is even more apparent in japanese version.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

In ep 6, when a fake corpse is being discussed in a similar way, the word corpse is said in quotes ("The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined").

Quotes there exist simply because it's openly known that Battler isn't dead there.
But in this example narrator tries to hide it.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

We also have the red, in regard to that room, that No one is hiding. Which means that even if Jessica were alive, she could not be hiding in that room, regardless of who might be searching for her and pretending she's not there.

Wrong. "No one is hiding" is said in present time. And time of red proclaimations is important. At the time when Beatrice says that, no one really is hiding. But it happens long after the people have visited Jessica's room.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Time of red's proclaimation is important.
Because it's proclaimed at ep4, that means that "This applies to all games" which exist at that time, so only ep1-4.

Actually all means all games. Considering the red is an absolute truth and Lambdadelta is still following Beatrices rules she would also have to follow that red.

Also what I meant in my last post since I admit I wasn't very clear. Jessica wasn't mentioned in the first red. Beatrice said only those mentioned in the first red were in the room. That means only they could be in the room. The red shows corpses don't count when listing people in the room.

[battle22]

eX_ploit

On what basis can you say that one cannot trust the manga? It has been confirmed by Ryukishi that he is supervising and every additional information was his idea. Are you trying to tell me that this is all some sort of big scheme that Ryukishi is trying to pull? I'm sorry but, no such deep meaning or deep answers exist in Umineko and what you are implying is simply delusional.

The answer wasn't something you liked, so you go, deny every bit of the "official explanation" (can't believe this term exists) and try to form a theory with Jessica. While speculating most of the time. It is your beloved Red Truth that doesn't allow you to do that. And Umineko goes in lengths to why Why Dunnit is important, why would Jessica even attempt murder? Is it because she didn't want to be the head? She could just pass it to George and the problem is solved.

Now, since Shkannon is big pile of bullshit in your eyes, I'd like you to explain, what the term furniture means and why was the love duels a theme of EP6? Certainly not a time wasting thing, it had a meaning. And it works with Shkannon, however without it... the "furniture" stuff just doesn't seem to make sense.

Another hint to Shkannon is that both of these characters can use magic, no one outside these people has demonstrated magic during the illusion scenes. The reason they can use magic is because they are fictional characters and ideas as Beatrice herself. If we deny Shkannon, what makes them so special? Why can't it be Genji who has cool swords?

Now about other characters witnessing Shkannon together. I believe that you like denying scenes with "no detective = bullshit", and you're right, without the detective, without the objective observer, magic is real and it works. Battler has never seen Shannon and Kanon together, in the episodes of 1 through 4. And the only time he does see them, is in episode 5. Where he is on the scheme himself and accepts a lie with a group of people, to turn it into the truth (About Kinzo, and the scheme of the siblings and him being the caller) and we have a confirmation of it later that he is not the detective. As for Erika Furudo making a mistake, so what? It has happened a lot. And she also didn't explain everything and tried to cut and cheat her way to victory. She also misunderstands and makes mistakes.

And another thing, just reading into the Red Truth is not how you solve Umineko. There are a lot of philosophical themes that are trying to help you understand the rules. Erika, the representation of an Umineko fan, loses her fight against Battler and Beatrice. The "Without love, it cannot be seen" is not some random stupidity.

Let us continue, I'd like for you to explain every murders up to EP4, with Jessica as the culprit. Motives for her, motives for her accomplices and everything. It's fairly easy for Jessica or anyone to be the culprit in the first twilight of episode 1. But how about the 2nd? Who killed Eva and Hideyoshi. Jessica was always present in the parlor, with Battler. She didn't have enough time to move and do something like that. Servants were out of the room though. Next is Kanon's murder in the boiler room, how did Jessica pull this off? She was with Battler, yet again, until he came in to check on Kanon. And now the letter, who placed it there? Natsuhi says that it could not have been Battler, George and Jessica. And the final murder? Jessica was in Kinzo's study, when did she have time to go out, without people noticing, killing the servants and coming back?

I'm sorry, but denying Shkannon is simply delusional, when you have the Visual Novels, Mangas, interviews and extra tips confirming it. Heck, the manga is trying to spell it out of us, because Ryukishi is tired from the Umineko bullshit, and we are calling that non-canon? Let's not make him hate our fanbase more, I still want him to write mysteries.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Battler being reliable doesn't mean that he can't be tricked. It simply means that he doesn't lie to the reader, and truthfully describes what he sees and thinks.
As I said, impression that butterflies are shining gold could simply be from the golden glow of study itself.

Battler's viewpoint, if he is the detective and possesses a reliable viewpoint in that scene, is objective and not subjective. He could be mistaken about things that he didn't actually see, but not about things that he did see. And he saw the butterflies.

Dlanor: Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Battler: In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!

Huh. Actually, that red there seems to mean that even if Kinzo's corpse was propped up in the chair in ep 2, Battler would not have been able to see him while maintaining a reliable viewpoint, even if one would have thought that the corpse would qualify. Battler's narration there said "I could see Grandfather's back".

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

You misunderstood this part, he's not talking about butterflies there.
He's talking about study itself.

Battler's viewpoint needs to be objective there in order for your claim that it wasn't a fantasy scene to be correct. If he isn't talking about the butterflies and saying that they are almost like golden confetti, this means that there was something else there which was almost like confetti but was not actually golden confetti. If it had really been golden confetti, Battler with his objective viewpoint could not have been mistaken about what it was.

But, he was talking about the butterflies. He specifically identifies that the thing that was glowing was the butterflies. Here's the full quote in context.

At that moment, ...I got slightly disoriented by the dazzling golden glow..........It was, .........somehow, ......a swarm of butterflies, shining gold.

The golden butterflies that were completely filling the inside of the study poured out all at once.......

" Wha-............, ......What is, .............this......................"

It was almost like golden leaf confetti.
The interior of Grandfather's study was filled with a golden glow....

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

They were simply brought in a large bottle or something by Jessica and released right before Battler arrived.
And the reason why she did that was simply to shock Battler and make him more believing that she is a witch.

That's not really something simple. It would have had to be a very big bottle! But okay. If it were possible for Jessica to be there, maybe she could have let a whole load of butterflies out of a big bottle. A big bottle of glowing butterflies, probably not, though.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Disguise is not a word that you can apply to voices.

No, you're wrong. It absolutely can apply to voices.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...glish/disguise
Oxford English dictionary entry for disguise:

1.1 Make (something) unrecognizable by altering its appearance, sound, taste, or smell: does holding a handkerchief over the mouthpiece really disguise your voice?

Disguising one's voice is even the example they give there. You will find that there are many instances where the word disguise is used to apply to voices.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

And I don't think that we need any extra proof for ventriloqism after we already know that whoever plays Beatrice, has very good acting talent, and voice changing talent. Ventriloqism is not far from that.
And by the way these voice changing clues were the reason, that I started suspecting Jessica in the first place. After all she is a singer in a girl's band.

Being a singer in a band is very different from being an accomplished ventriloquist. It's a different skill. Learning to sing or even to act won't make somebody a ventriloquist. It's one thing for somebody to act out a different voice on the phone or as part of a Beatrice role, and another to throw one's voice around.

Still, I would say this is a moot point given that Battler could not have been mistaken about Kinzo's voice. It was a fantasy scene.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

So just because a pair of words "Jessica's corpse" appears in that red, does not itself mean that Jessica is dead.
The meaning of "Jessica's corpse" is overshadowed by meaning of "Discovery of Jessica's corpse", and I even talked to a japanese translator about this, and he says that this interpretation is even more apparent in japanese version.

What do you mean, overshadowed? It refers to Jessica's corpse no matter how the sentence is read in English. When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room is what it said. If the corpse did not belong to Jessica, Beatrice should not have been able to say that in red.

Still, let's see. The relevant section seems to be this part. If we've got any Japanese speakers reading this, could you confirm whether the construction of the sentence means that the Jessica's corpse section is somehow negated?

朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、@戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條 のみだった

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Wrong. "No one is hiding" is said in present time. And time of red proclaimations is important. At the time when Beatrice says that, no one really is hiding. But it happens long after the people have visited Jessica's room.

This is the full quote in context:

"Let's go back to Jessica's room. When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room. Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included. Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding."

Beatrice is talking about both the case of Jessica's room and the servants' room. Nobody was in either of those rooms that Battler was not aware of, and nobody was hiding. There's no way around it. Also, if Battler is the detective there, his viewpoint is objective. He can't have mis-identified Jessica's corpse.

Also, it's as Valkama says. Beatrice would not have been able to give the first red there listing the only people in Jessica's room in a way that did not include Jessica if Jessica had been alive.

Originally Posted by Valkama

Also what I meant in my last post since I admit I wasn't very clear. Jessica wasn't mentioned in the first red. Beatrice said only those mentioned in the first red were in the room. That means only they could be in the room. The red shows corpses don't count when listing people in the room.

[battle22]

Dlanor: Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Battler: In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!

What I am interested is, why is these two statements red? They are contradicting each other. I witnessed Grandfather, Grandfather doesn't exist. Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!, haha, how is I witnessed Grandfather red then? Did Ryu made a script mistake when he coded this?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by battle22

What I am interested is, why is these two statements red? They are contradicting each other. I witnessed Grandfather, Grandfather doesn't exist. Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!, haha, how is I witnessed Grandfather red then? Did Ryu made a script mistake when he coded this?

Yeah, it does look odd. I copied that one from the red truth page at the wiki. Perhaps the error was from whoever put it there? http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth If not, it could be from the Witch Hunt or Ryukishi.

I may go and take a quick look through the script...Edit: Looks as if it was in the original script. Ryukishi is the culprit!

[battle22]

Looks as if it was in the original script. Ryukishi is the culprit!

I'm interested if PS3 has done anything about it. There were few reds that were changed into white text. Aah, how I wish they continued making the ports for the PSP...

[eX_ploit]

battle22
while I was writing a response to you I decided to reread the part about Kanon's death in ep1, and found a curious fact.
After they found Kanon injured in the boiler room, Nanjo and George took him to the servants room, and after that George and Jessica helped Nanjo to treat Kanon. And Nanjo said that Kanon had a very serious wound, so Shkanon doesn't match here at least, unless you suggest that George and Jessica are accomplices as well as Nanjo.

And the full response will be later, need to go sleep now.

[battle22]

Yasu's body does have a wound.

Add the fake blood she uses when setting up a crime scene on it and there you have it, George and Jessica, people who have no medical knowledge, can be easily fooled. Nanjo, on the other hand, is an accomplice. Whoever you want the culprit to be, Nanjo as an accomplice is required.

[AuraTwilight]

All of that never happens in red or in front of detective.

Irrelevant. Ryukishi had a reason for it. Sakutarou is treated as an alternate identity for Maria, and the red calls Sakutarou something that could theoretically be revived, but can't be by magic.

You don't 'revive' objects, you repair them. You only 'revive' living things.

And if you dispute the above sentence, you're engaging in a figurative piece of language, and thus admitting the Red can engage in figurative and emotional truths.

I don't claim that this fantasy scene is a proof for my theory.
My theory works even without it.

It doesn't though, because Erika doesn't kill anybody in the closet on the gameboard. The game is over as soon as she inspects it.

Why do you assume that fantasy Erika has the same knowledge as gameboard Erika?

Because gameboard Erika constantly uses information Erika has, and says things only Erika would know. Erika explicitly breaks the 4th wall, and her perspective is the Detective's. How can a fantasy scene involving Erika even exist, if her perspective is present every time she's there?

Also, for clarity, "Meta" and "Fantasy" aren't the same thing. But the point is, Gameboard Erika seems to know everything Meta-Erika does, explicitly describing herself as living in a gameboard and describing the coming murders which haven't happened yet.

For fuck's sake, she uses Red Truth and talks about detective's rules infront of everyone, to the point that she can use Detective's Authority to magically make people step aside and investigate a corpse.

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga.
She accepts testimony that he's in the back without seeing him?
Are we really talking about Erika here?
Doesn't she have perfect sight and hearing? And always looking out for clues?

Perfect sight doesn't let you see through people's solid bodies. And she's too busy invoking the mystery trope of proclaiming how smart and perfect her reasoning is infront of a crowd. By the time she's gathering everyone and declaring her theory, her reasoning (she thinks), is complete. Why would she even suspect something is amiss?

Besides, the manga is canon. Ryukishi decides absolutely everything in it. It even fixes plot-holes he made in the VN, like how he forgot about the second door in the boiler room in Banquet of the Golden Witch.

If anything, the manga is the revised draft of the VN.

You are simply taking words out of context here.
Just because a word by itself can mean something, doesn't allow you to discard the rest.

Pretty hypocritical of someone who disregards literally everything the author says that isn't colored red or from a detective's point of view.

Doesn't match the story. If Beatrice really took it personally Battler would be among the first to die.

This is blatantly and directly false. Beatrice's motives include forcing Battler to REMEMBER WHAT HE DID. He can't do that if she whacks him off first, regardless of how personally she takes it. You're being intellectually dishonest.

You are misquoting the red again here.
The exact red was
Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
which has completely different meaning.

So you admit the Red Truth can speak on subjective things, meaning you can't logically discredit subjective redefinitions of death and revival?

Because a person exists regardless of whether or not a person is aware of them. The proper red would've been 'I didn't know any Beatrice six years ago.'

The part of that scene which I describe didn't happen after midnight.
Midnight happens right in the middle of that scene, and that's when magic really starts happening, Kinzo starts walking and talking to Battler, and portal to hell opens.
But before midnight none of that happens.

I may have misremembered. Battler literally gave up in his fight with Beatrice long before this scene, though, and accepted the witch. One can still make the argument that his authority was invalid as soon as he refused to act as a detective.

The manga heavily implies it, for what it's worth.

Disguise is not a word that you can apply to voices.

Yes it is. Natsuhi suspects the Man From 19 Years Ago if disguising his voice.

People do it in real life all the time. There are voice changers. There's speaking through a tube. There's ventriloquism and voice-acting.

Who the hell are you to arbitrarily what isn't and isn't a disguise, like that?

So just because a pair of words "Jessica's corpse" appears in that red, does not itself mean that Jessica is dead.
The meaning of "Jessica's corpse" is overshadowed by meaning of "Discovery of Jessica's corpse", and I even talked to a japanese translator about this, and he says that this interpretation is even more apparent in japanese version.

This directly contradicts your original intention that Shkanon is impossible because they're described as dead or different people.

I could argue that Shannon and Kanon being different people in the red doesn't mean they have different bodies; their minds are still different, but you wouldn't buy that and I wouldn't blame you for finding that suspect.

The red truth is either literal or it is figurative. Please pick one and stick to it, you're faffing back and forth on this.

Additionally, I want to ask what you think of the Nanjo murder in Game 3? Jessica, Eva, and Battler cannot do it and everyone else is dead at the time of the murder according to Eva's red.

The common explanation, and the one Ryukishi vouches for in an interview, is that the killer is someone who discarded all the names Eva-Beatrice listed as dead. And when Battler tried to argue that Jessica had a split personality who killed Nanjo, Eva-Beatrice discredits it by saying her body can't act, not by arguing that such a personality is 'still Jessica'. I feel like this distinction is incredibly important, if only because Eva-Beato could've put that train of thought down to rest forever but didn't.

As for Battle22's question on how Battler can say in red that he witnessed Kinzo, when he didn't?

He thought he did. It was an illusion. A trick of the light. He was objectively wrong, but he was not being personally deceptive or dishonest. The Red Truth has always allowed for emotional and subjective truths. There is literally a Knox rule demanding they get to, if one puts stock in that stuff.

[battle22]

As for Battle22's question on how Battler can say in red that he witnessed Kinzo, when he didn't?

He thought he did. It was an illusion. A trick of the light. He was objectively wrong, but he was not being personally deceptive or dishonest. The Red Truth has always allowed for emotional and subjective truths. There is literally a Knox rule demanding they get to, if one puts stock in that stuff.

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?

[AuraTwilight]

It's kind of an explicit plot hole because the Red's pretty inconsistent, especially between the first part and Chiru. Considering the existence of Logic Errors, it seems evident that Beatrice forced him to choke.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Conspiracy or not, all those themes you are talking about are just themes, they cannot be used as proofs. And if those themes contradict the actual proofs, then what value do they have?

It's kinda funny that you shift from 'this was never seen by the detective' and 'this was said in red, regardless of the context' to 'don't take things out of context' depending on which fits your theory.

Let me ask you then, if they are just themes, WHY ARE THEY EVEN THERE? Why are they so relevant that Ryukishi will spend walls of text (and obviously a great deal of time) to talk about them and analyze them over and over again?

And you know, they don't contradict the actual proof, as a matter of fact they are actually encouraging it. They only contradict the proof for YOUR theory and that is why you discard them, which really isn't a great way to solve things.

Golden butterflies are not magic.
Butterflies have all kinds of crazy colors.
For example http://andyserrano.deviantart.com/ar...rfly-110471340

Ryukishi also has said that the glittering golden butterflies don't exist on Rokenjima and that they symbolize the fact that the narrative gets distorted. Oh, but he's a total liar and Dumbledore is straight so scratch that.

Let's assume they are real butterflies. HOW ON EARTH did the culprit find so many of them in the middle of a typhoon and throw them into the study?

Narrative mentions simultaneous interaction of Shannon and Kanon with people other than Battler a lot.

Like Genji and Kumasawa, who actually know they are the same person.

Narrative also mentions a great deal of people witnessing Zombie-Kanon and the Seven Stakes, don't lets be silly.

Narrative obviously lies a lot in fantasy scenes.

In fantasy scenes. And those scenes usually have some way to link to reality. What I mean is that the narrative never lies straightly. It tries to trick you but you don't get, per say, a red truth, or a scene that comes from an undoubtable source stating that Ange is the culrpit and the golden ingots are actually made of chocolate.

Being alone only counts alive people. If "I" in this sentence means the bomb than it makes sense.

So, can the red reffer to identities and personas as well? Weird, because I thought you were saying it doesn't.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga

Like many people after the first time I mentioned it and before I am writing this again already said, this is what makes your theory so easy to attack:
You are arbitrarily deciding that the author is lying to us about the canonicity of a part of his own work. If what you claim wa true, he is not putting in red herrings to throw us off, he is literally lying to our faces. This is basically making any theory useless, even yours, because everything could be just one big lie made up by the author.
The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces

Because it's proclaimed at ep4, that means that "This applies to all games" which exist at that time, so only ep1-4.

This would run counter to the necessity of saying in EP5 that "up until now you Battler have been the detective."

You are simply taking words out of context here.
Just because a word by itself can mean something, doesn't allow you to discard the rest. The same goes for sentences.

You're problem, though, is one of translation-decay.
While the Witch Hunt translation is incredibly well done, it cannot cover every small difference in implication a word carries and while the translations went along a lot of changes were necessary in order to cover new information that occured in syndication. So a lot of your information also depends on when you read Umineko.
The team also had to come up with sentences that still sounded like actual English, not some strange Engrish gibberish, so fine details automatically had to land on the cutting room floor.

The original sentence from EP4 for example is:
そなたの罪で、人が死ぬ。
そなたの罪により、この島の人間が、大勢死ぬ。誰も逃さぬ、全て死ぬ。
Due to your sin people die.
Because of your sin, the humans on this island, they die in great numbers. No one is allowed to escape (also: no one is let free), all (in grammatical reference to: the humans) die.

And to reply to GoldenLand:
朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條の みだった。
死体の朱志香ももちろん含む。
Translates to:
At the time of discovering Jessica's corpse, the people within Jessica's room were, Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo alone.
Jessica the corpse is of course included as well.

The problem with this is, if the theory of Kanon disguised as Jessica were true, then this sentence would claim that the disguised corpse does not exist in the room, but instead Jessica (who is not a corpse).

But that would run counter to:
よって、朱志香の部屋の件、そしてこの使用人室の件の両方について、そなたが認識していた以外の人間は存在 しない。
誰も隠れていない。
Therefore, in both the case of Jessica's room, and the case of this servant room, there exists no human outside of those you have recognized.
Nobody is hiding (gramatically connected to: during the time the cases of discovering the rooms occured)
If Jessica were to exist in that room but is not a corpse, and the corpse that Battler sees is actually Kanon, then there would have to be a Jessica who is being recognized by Battler as being present who is actually the Jessica who is not a corpse.
Terrible circular logic...but grammar defeats this argument quite effectively if we focus only on Red Truth.

Not to speak of the (apparently lying) EP8 manga, which claims:
嘉音は朱志香の部屋で朱志香と共に死亡した！
Kanon died in Jessica's room together with Jessica!

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

I think it is really dependent on what you attempt to take from it. If you decide that the story is a mystery, then it has to go conform with the rules of said genre (according to Umineko), if it is not then you have to adapt your theory accordingly.
Thus neither Knox nor Dine help us with figuring out the truth, not unless we assume that reality happened just like a mystery.