Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[Anh_Minh]

For those of us unwilling to plunge into the OC thread... What are you guys trying to argue?

That only mages get to captain ships? That only mages can possibly get the qualification to captain ships? That non-mages would make better captains?

[Wild Goose]

Ark's contention is that only mages should captain ships, have the necessary qualifications, skills and experience to run ships, while I'm trying to point out to him that that's flawed thinking.

Eh, I suppose it's mostly because we're ornery bastards. Ark's just more of a stubborn ass ornery bastard compared to me.

[arkhangelsk]

Looking back another round into history, it started when Tk3997 actually said that mages should not captain ships because it is a waste of resources and it'll require too much retraining. My counter naturally went against that, and in it included a part how a elite mage is much more likely to be able to learn the essentials of captaincy while a non-mage may never understand about mages, Wild Goose wants to argue that captains with no mage experience can lead mages by being extremely general (mission style stuff) and hands off.

Maybe, but for some reason, he doesn't seem as willing to let a mage be that "general" when it comes to commanding the ship and insists on years of retraining (based on the US Navy, which insists that the captain must be able to actually drive the ship rather than give those "general" orders) to the captain can handle the ship almost like a "specialist". And IMO, the command procedure on the screen does not strike me as a Mission Command type.

Spoiler for Long:

As for how many people are listening, how many people are humoring, I can't read your minds and so I'll never know. But that's fine because here's the way I see it. If you just want to enjoy MGLN, think Barrier Jackets are magic and so on, that's fine. I might occasionally go over a FanFic you wrote and scribble a little if I think you are too far off, but that's about the worst of it - I won't even debate you on your reply. If you don't write FanFiction, you won't talk to me about such topics at all unless you want to.

In the OC thread, I might get a little noisier because as I understand it, it is more or less a group FanFic that's supposed to follow closely to canon. However, if I give my opinion and the group decides to ignore it entirely, well, I can take a hint.

However, if someone asks on a thread about something or proposes something, if I decide to reply, it'll be my best shot, and as heavily steeped in reality as I could make it.

If you debate my answer, forgive me for assuming that you want to debate in a realist battlefield. You might be serious, you might be humoring, you might think this a good day of entertainment. All is fine - we all have our own reasons, and if it isn't the least bit fun for me I won't be playing too.

I mean, if you (again I use this example) don't care about visuals, why do you care when I say that based on visuals, ranges are short. If you don't care about science, why do you even care when I say that scientific analysis of available info says barrier jackets are weak?

Why are people taking the "crash into building" scenes as 100% unexaggerated truth with full scientific consequences that can only be alleviated by the magical properties of barrier jackets, but the wind flapping is an animation thing (and it tends to be an animation thing only after I explain to them what the wind flapping means scientifically to the defensive capabilities of a BJ)?

Can you offer a perspective on that?

[BBM]

Maybe better/stronger mages see combat sooner and more, thus leading to more experience. And more experience leads to higher command position.

However Chrono and Hayate are absurdly young, so I think that they had a lot of political backing.

[Xellos-_^]

In Chrono's case he was already in the TSBA by the frist season of Nanoha. So he had 10+ years of experience by the time he made admiral. And if he deals a lot with Lost Logia cases that means most of his cases are high prority and extremely dangerous. He probably had more big cases solve then most people 3x his age. By the time he reach his admiral status he probably earn enough merit badges the only excuse to not promote him would be because of his age not experience.

In Hayate's case i will quote Avatar:

That's NOT necessarily unreasonable. If you look at the TSAB like a military, then no, it'd be just plain stupid. But it's also a quasi-governmental organization on its own, one which is charged with helping mages achieve their potential and incidentally not attempt mass slaughter, dimension-wrecking experiments, enslaving whole populaces, etc. etc. The damage that an inexperienced Hayate can do is significant, but the damage a disgruntled Hayate could do doesn't even bear thinking about.

Hayate is SS
Signum is S
Vita is AAA
Shamal and Zafira is AA

That is a lot of fire power under Hayate command and as Avatar says it pays to keep your Nuclear Weapons happy.

[BBM]

That might also play a role.

[Keroko]

Carried over from the FAQ thread (we seem to do that a lot, don't we? )

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Fate volunteered as a shokutaku before her trial was even over. Her first mission was then on Earth, and then she was taken under Lindy's wing. If Lindy decides to live on Earth...

*scratches head* True, can't argue that. (though one might argue why Lindy was even allowed to move to earth if the law states to get magic users off non-magic planets)

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

For Hayate and Wolkies, Chrono (and Lindy) specifically offered a quid pro quo - service for relative freedom, which they accepted. What is it if not a demi-conscription.

Given such large concessions (they agreed to serve), I'm sure the TSAB has a little maganimity.

A little maganimity, sure, I can fully understand allowing them to live in relative freedom if they agreed to serve.... if not for a law that states all magic users should be drafted off non-magic planets ASAP. You're basically saying they would willingly break laws to allow criminals to have their ways. That's not 'relative' freedom.

The fact that both Nanoha, the Wolkenritter and Hayate (the later still being concidered criminals by some even as far as StrikerS) were allowed to stay on earth, and that Lindy was allowed to move to earth severely severely undermines such a law's existence in canon.

On the flipside, I haven't seen any proof of such a law existing in either the anime nor the manga.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Carried over from the FAQ thread (we seem to do that a lot, don't we? )



*scratches head* True, can't argue that. (though one might argue why Lindy was even allowed to move to earth if the law states to get magic users off non-magic planets)



A little maganimity, sure, I can fully understand allowing them to live in relative freedom if they agreed to serve.... if not for a law that states all magic users should be drafted off non-magic planets ASAP. You're basically saying they would willingly break laws to allow criminals to have their ways. That's not 'relative' freedom.

The fact that both Nanoha, the Wolkenritter and Hayate (the later still being concidered criminals by some even as far as StrikerS) were allowed to stay on earth, and that Lindy was allowed to move to earth severely severely undermines such a law's existence in canon.

Nanoha is a 9 year old AAA mage.

I will requote Avatar:

The damage that an inexperienced Hayate can do is significant, but the damage a disgruntled Hayate could do doesn't even bear thinking about.

Can you imagine the kind of damage a disgruntle Nanoha could do? By letting Nanoha stay where she till she is ready to move is a lot less dangerous then forcing her to move before she is ready.

Same applies to Hayate. You don't force a S class mage to do anything. You use the carrot and stick approach. And you make sure the carrot is a very sweet carrot.

Having Lindy there could be justify as having someone high level to keep a eye on them all. If you were going to let Nanoha, Hayate and the wolkenritter stay on earth, you probably should have someone keep a eye on them. And considering Lindy already has thier trust, who better? That is how i would spin it for a exception on letting Lindy move to earth.

On the flipside, I haven't seen any proof of such a law existing in either the anime nor the manga.

i don't either.

[Comartemis]

You don't force a S class mage to do anything. You use the carrot and stick approach. And you make sure the carrot is a very sweet carrot.

Like poking a dragon with a sword to try to get it to do something for you. It ain't gonna work, and if you poke it hard enough you get disastrous consequences.

[Keroko]

My point exactly. So you've found a powerfull mage on a non-administered planet. You invite them over to the TSAB. She refuses. What are you going to do? Drag her out of her house kicking and screaming? Some people simply don't want to join a millitairy, so they'll refuse to join an one they've never even heard of in the first place.

And this is disregarding the fact that Lindy clearly gave Nanoha a choice whether she wanted to get involved or not. If the drafting law was real, Nanoha wouldn't have been given that choice.

[Avatar_notADV]

Well, we can't rule out a more subtle approach.

I don't want to say that it would have been "easy" to remove Nanoha from her normal parental supervision, but it's certainly possible. The most direct method is the Big Bribe - "we would very much like you to come with us, and so we'll give you lots of toys and stuff, and incidentally your family can come and they will really enjoy it here too, you'll be well taken care of financially." And, of course, a mage recruited in this fashion will have an extra layer of protection for their loyalty... if their family's relocated to Mid, there's always the worry about what'll happen to them if you go rogue. (Not necessarily reprisals, just "they'll cut off Mom's pension!")

For the more evil-minded, TSAB mages can subtly engineer a more attractive situation. Midoriya burns down in the middle of the night, family finances on the brink of ruin? Suddenly traveling to the wealthy magical planet sounds like a better idea...

Alternately, the Big Lie technique: "You're a mage, and that's cool, but you also have a medical condition related to that, and you need treatment that we can only provide back home; if you just hang out here, you may/will die." Not -entirely- untrue, even, given the differences in available medical care, and the possible physical blowback from magic training. Also works well in combination with the bribe technique...

But the initial recruitment isn't the only factor, especially when you're recruiting as young as the TSAB does (even at home, they're taking kids.) Financially speaking, you don't want your mage wondering how much better they'd be doing in a life of crime. TSAB seems to have this covered - none of the characters are described as particularly materialistic or anything, but they seem to be doin' okay on that front. Fate can afford a cool car. Subaru can support her ice cream consumption (oy, the size of a third-world nation's defense budget, that!) Graham can support the whole Yagami household without any trouble, even on his pension.

Additionally, the TSAB needs to provide respect; mages have to feel that they're valuable, that their value is appreciated, their work is important, etc. Part of that is inevitably going to boil down to exceptionism - if you tell a S-rank mage that you can't bend the rules for them, they're going to be more inclined to say "bugger this" and take off on their own, compared to an ordinary mage. This is one reason your powerful mages have rank inflation - rank is a powerful sign of respect. Additionally, it helps align the interests better if the mage's appreciation of their respective abilities is somewhat close to the nominal rank structure. An S-rank mage who spends five years as a private, fetching ammo for B- sergeants, is going to be a lot more frustrated than one who spends those same five years as a lieutenant ordering those B-rankers around. It also allows for the development of paternal/maternal thinking - the higher-ranked mage feels responsible for the well-being of their subordinates, creating an additional tie of loyalty, that might not be developed if that mage HAS no subordinates.

All that said, it's not totally unreasonable that the TSAB would, at the end, say, "Look, we're not going to get out of your life; we've tried to induce you to come with us, because we think it'll be better for us, you, and the people around you; now we're gonna twist your arm." Especially in a Japanese-based society, there's all sorts of methods you could use to guilt the target into joining up, without actually knocking them out and kidnapping them. Heck, just telling the government, "look, we, er, almost destroyed your world twice this year, having these people here is dangerous to all you norms, we'd like you to encourage them to emigrate" would work pretty well. ;p

[Keroko]

... I'm not even sure how to respond to that last one.

Anyway, my point is that concidering what we see in both the anime and manga, everything seems to contradict the presence of forced reqruitment. In fact, there very much seems to be a 'the earth may have one or two powerfull mages, but let's leave them to their own lives.' aproach (point in case, Nanoha being given a choice).

Disregarding all the evil conspiracy theories, this makes sense. Earth is a not an administered planet, which means the TSAB has no right to reqruit anyone. If they so happen to encounter someone who shows interest in joining (Like what happened to Nanoha and Graham) they won't say no, but they won't do regular sweeps to see if there is any magic potentional that can be reqruited.

Also, once again, if there is actually a law stating potentional mages need to be taken of an unadministered planet as soon as possible, why would they allow criminals or their very own mages to go to such a planet? That's disobeying your own rules and regulations.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Also, once again, if there is actually a law stating potentional mages need to be taken of an unadministered planet as soon as possible, why would they allow criminals or their very own mages to go to such a planet? That's disobeying your own rules and regulations.

I will say this, the TSBA (at least the Navy) has shown itself to be very flexible. And exception to thier rules and regulations can probably be made if you can show that a exception needs to be made.

They can chalk up the whole Hayate and Wolkenitter as a special case and the exception for Lindy setting up shop on Earth as a thier probation officer.

[Keroko]

The fact that the TSAB Navy is flexible enough to allow that already makes the existence of that law very questionable. There is a limit to how much strings one can pull, and according to the novel there was already much string-pulling required to allow Nanoha, free of any criminal record, to stay.

[Xellos-_^]

In Hayate case, they just need to point out she is a S class mage. The TSBA has been around long enough that predences for every kind of exception has probably been made.

[Keroko]

You forget one important detail: The source of her crime. The Yami no Sho is a Lost Logia that had caused problems for the TSAB multiple times, and even in StrikerS there are still people who use it as a bias against her, Regius was but one example. S-class or not, Hayate was labelled as a criminal. And yet they broke their own laws to allow a criminal to live a happy life? If even during StrikerS there is still bad blood aimed at Hayate, then during her earlier years it should have been nigh-impossible to allow her to break this supposed law and stay on an unadministered planet.

It makes much more sense if such a law simply was a novel only thing, concidering there is no support for it whatsoever beyond the novel.

[Anh_Minh]

Or maybe the law isn't as simple as "Get mages off administered worlds at all cost". Maybe they just want them where they can keep an eye on them. And Lindy, as a TSAB admiral, was deemed enough to watch over even Hayate.

After all, as has been said, high ranked mages are valuable. Even if you can confine them (and I think the TSAB could have, if they'd been willing to pull enough of their scattered resources, maybe at the expense of other planets...), you can't force them to give your their best. Antagonizing them makes no sense, except as a last resort.

[Keroko]

Oh, I just remembered something else. Subaru and Ginga also had a choice, and they weren't even born on an unadministered planet. I recall Genya saying something in the manga along the lines of 'I hadn't planned on this, for either of you to join the millitairy' now, this line makes no sense if reqruitment is mandatory, because as an officer he would know that they would have to do service eventually. The only way this makes sense is if reqruitment is voluntarely.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Oh, I just remembered something else. Subaru and Ginga also had a choice, and they weren't even born on an unadministered planet. I recall Genya saying something in the manga along the lines of 'I hadn't planned on this, for either of you to join the millitairy' now, this line makes no sense if reqruitment is mandatory, because as an officer he would know that they would have to do service eventually. The only way this makes sense is if reqruitment is voluntarely.

In the novel, does it says Mages absolutely have to join the military or does it just get them off the non-admin worlds? For a mage-type like the Ferret, a civilian job would make more sense then a military.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

In the novel, does it says Mages absolutely have to join the military or does it just get them off the non-admin worlds? For a mage-type like the Ferret, a civilian job would make more sense then a military.

It says to get them off the planet. That's when StrikerS comes in to fill in the rest of the gloomy picture. Like Erio and Caro, she'll be dumped into a very sterile and white care facility and evaluated by TSAB pokupatel (see Ep5).

She will join... whiteness or freedom (which might even extend to the opportunity for a family visit if she makes a name for herself). Tough choice.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Oh, I just remembered something else. Subaru and Ginga also had a choice, and they weren't even born on an unadministered planet. I recall Genya saying something in the manga along the lines of 'I hadn't planned on this, for either of you to join the millitairy' now, this line makes no sense if reqruitment is mandatory, because as an officer he would know that they would have to do service eventually. The only way this makes sense is if reqruitment is voluntarely.

In our last discussion, you've made me concede this conscription point using this. However, the two are actually different issues.

Originally Posted by Keroko

... I'm not even sure how to respond to that last one.

Anyway, my point is that concidering what we see in both the anime and manga, everything seems to contradict the presence of forced reqruitment. In fact, there very much seems to be a 'the earth may have one or two powerfull mages, but let's leave them to their own lives.' aproach (point in case, Nanoha being given a choice).

Taking the whole continuity, it looked more like Lindy shielded Nanoha from the coercion and gave her a choice - and since she already said yes.

Kind of a "You get to make a choice, as long as your choice is to agree with me" situation.

It is like a guy who volunteers to be a Soviet Army officer. If he's ignorant enough not to realize this, no one needs to make it clear to him if he did not pick that path, he'll be thrown into a very dirty wagon anyway with countless other draftees to serve two years in a desolate place where the main entertainment is alcohol and dedovschina.

Disregarding all the evil conspiracy theories, this makes sense. Earth is a not an administered planet, which means the TSAB has no right to reqruit anyone. If they so happen to encounter someone who shows interest in joining (Like what happened to Nanoha and Graham) they won't say no, but they won't do regular sweeps to see if there is any magic potentional that can be reqruited.

We have discussed this before. Remember our previous discussion (it is only at the top of this page if you use a 40-page setting). The very term "unadministered" (actually, in Midchildran it is "Non-management") actually says much about the Midchildran mindset - they reserve the right to "manage" everything. Look at their actions and tell me they give a f*ck about other people's sovereignty.

As you've just admitted, the TSAB has no right to recruit anyone. Yet even by your admission, they do so anyway. Thus, we can see they don't give a f*ck about sovereignty, which means that "non-management" is exactly as I say it means - the planet is living autonomously under the sufferance of the Middies and they feel the right (White Man's Burden popped up somewhere in our last discussion) to interfere anytime they godd*mn please.

Imagine the uproar if the United States suddenly classified every country outside its borders as "unadministered" or "non-managed" territory. Those words mean something.