The Genderbending of Haruhi Suzumiya [Spoilers Aplenty]

[Tyabann]

My analysis: It's late, you're a troll, you're trying to take control, and screw you.

I feel useless and feel like quitting this shit. GOD, I fucking hate this series.

Where the hell is the Danchou when I actually need him?

Originally Posted by Miraploy

And of course there's a double standard. That's the whole point of the project, to apply the double standard to a different-sexed version of our character and see what happens. That's where all the lulz comes from, right? But if instead of applying the double standard to a different sexed version of our character, you alter the character, then you ruin the entire point!

I WENT OVER THIS. He's a different character BECAUSE of double standard, and because a lot of his personality is based off of images and manga created before the rewrites began.

Fanbase dictates how the character is viewed, not ONE PERSON.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

I don't think I can tell anyone what to do. But I do think that if you want this project to recieve more validation than any one of the myriad fanfics of questionable value you should be extremely open to opposing opinions, regardless of however late you think it is. Anyway what I'm asking for are relatively minor, it really won't take that long. Besides, the places in the text where the minutae of character that we're arguing over right now are relevant, are few.

HAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, that's funny.

We're HUGE. We're EVERYWHERE. We're at cons, for god's sake. We already have validation from fans, I don't need validation from you.

What you're asking for is a complete change to an established character. If you had been around earlier, you might have had input, but I had other editors then and I still have one now.

So no, you have no point

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Does anyone think we should have a Haruki who's simply Haruhi, except more masculine, and apply the double standard for the lulz rather than create a whole new character from an amalgamation of anime tropes and then have the double standards be a non-factor?

Though you may not care, but I can tell you right now that I'm not interested in some OC you created and then slapped the label Haruki on, I read this for Haruhi. If you're going to take on the responsibility of being the editor then you should respect the character (as well as edit more carefully, I mean the whole closed space/seal reality thing wasn't the only obvious mistake I spotted).

Control freak control freak control freak.

You can't just come in here and tell us what to do.

Haruhi =/= Haruki. Blame the Japanese who created Haruki, not me. We just expanded on what we viewed as his character.

Fact is, if you're not interested, we don't want you here.

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I've already said most of this, but the traits that make Haruhi moe simply do not work for a male character. Her hidden vulnerability, her emo-ness... it doesn't quite work, because that's not how males are expected by society to behave.

Does the fact that it is entirely possible for a male to be like that have any bearing on the situation?

Also, how was the baseball-stadium scene reworked, then? (I don't think I've read that part...^^; ) Did you just leave it out? Or...?

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I feel useless and feel like quitting this shit.

I encourage you to resign mate. If you don't feel like you're up to the task there are other rabid fans who want to work on this.

Ahh yes of course. When you're unable to respond to the substantive issues I raise you resort to ad hominem.

I'm a little confused on why we're listening to the Japanese (where are they anyway?) who created Haruki. I understand if this is a translation of originally Japanese works, but I understood this to be an effort by the English speaking community.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Cat Megex

Does the fact that it is entirely possible for a male to be like that have any bearing on the situation?

Also, how was the baseball-stadium scene reworked, then? (I don't think I've read that part...^^ Did you just leave it out? Or...?

Of course it is. It's just not something I see in Haruki.

I kept most of the lines in. He's just more, I dunno, frustrated than depressed. It's subtle.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

I encourage you to resign mate. If you don't feel like you're up to the task there are other rabid fans who want to work on this.

...

Just...

God... fuck...

I've been here, from the very damned start, and you come in and tell me you want my job?

What the fuck?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Oh god, though this is mildly entertaining... let's play a game shall we?

Haruki =/= Mitsuruu, and Haruhi =/= Mikuru.

They are differnent characters because they exhibit different spectrum of a scale of their gender. It does hold water, if only because this is a genderbending of a project, this is an adaptation. If we were to change Mitsuruu to fit a predetermined mould, then Mitsuruu couldn't be called a representation of Mikuru right? And what's wrong with depicting a vulnerble male? There are such things as males with low self-esteem.

Haruki is agravated, irritated, there are so many ways to describe it. The way Haruki has been protrayed is a person of a large amount of energy and ambition. Why would his depression be a total 180 of that? We can argue all we want that it's all possible and such, that there's people with bi-polar personalities or heavy spells of depression. But doing so, wouldn't make this an adaptation, it'd just be a rewrite with different nouns and names. Yes, you can say, well that's just sexist. Good for you, you discovered our secret plan to invert the world and destroy our sense of equality. Haruki's melancholy should be plausible atleast, somethign that could be linked with the personality he is given to him, if not it would just be convienent character developtment.

Yes, we're sexist, it's amazing. There's nothing wrong with which side Kyonko can be attracted to, this society has double standards, not hard to understand. But if we are to compare which side she could be more likely to be attracted to we see different ways to look at her. If she likes the rude and often jerk side of him, then that makes us question her as a "pure" girl, or whatever you may call it. Sexist? Hell yea, but come on, it's something that alot of men like in women, it's just preference. If she likes his vulnerable side, then we see her as more affectionate and caring, you can jazz it up all the way you like.

Men are more emotional, but they have different ways to cope with it. Yes, we alter the plot, but that what gives this project the distinction from a re-write to an adaptation.

And really, we don't need validation, it's a fan project, we just do this for our enjoyment. To us it seems like you're trolling us. For that I can say I'm sorry if it looks like that. But the truth in the matter is, that if you want a better or more politically correct version of this, well go ahead and write one.

[Ithekro]

The project has taken the standpoint of not being "just for the lulz". The attempt (if I understand this correctly) is to make a believable story using genderbent versions of the SOS-dan based on the original novels. Thus the basic plot structure has to remain intact, but for the most part things that just would not work in (Japanese?) society (or even Western in some cases) are altered to allow the story to continue within the plot structure.

We've been round and around with several plot problems based on the facts that Haruki and Kyon-chan's relationship cannot work exactly like Haruhi and Kyons, and the Haruki cannot act as out there as Haruhi does and get away with it. (also some things that just don't work at all because the characters are no longer the same gender as before).

One issue which may or may not have been solved (I honestly don't remember if it was), was the Valentine's Day plotline. It simply does not work correctly with the genders changed (even thought it is almost a subplot of the novel)...at least not in Japan. Simply because one of Haruhi's and therefore Haruki's personality quirks is actually to be very traditional about holidays. If the genderbending also make the characters American, then the situation would be Haruki giving chocolate to Kyon-chan...but that is not how it is done in Japan. Thus mental blocks and/or conflicts in writing styles (and editing) appear.

Be that as it may, you seem very focused on the preception of "sexist" traits. Any reason for that?

Also note that many scenes and personalities have been decided via commity.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by clockworkangel

*snip*

THANK YOU.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

*snip*

Thank you too...

[ClockWorkAngel]

You're welcome

@Ithekro Well we could always do White's day, but yes the situation will be awkward.

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Of course it is. It's just not something I see in Haruki.

I kept most of the lines in. He's just more, I dunno, frustrated than depressed. It's subtle.

...I see.

...

Just...

God... fuck...

I've been here, from the very damned start, and you come in and tell me you want my job?

What the fuck?

@ Kaisos: you should probably just take a short break or something. You seem to be fairly irritable at the moment (not that I can blame you, of course).

@Miraploy: GO TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD, AND READ EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN IT. IF YOU HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, DO IT AGAIN.

EDIT: Well, things seemed to have calmed down, so...*shrugs*

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

You're welcome

@Ithekro Well we could always do White's day, but yes the situation will be awkward.

My idea was to have Itsuko plan something for the guys, actually.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Ahh yes of course. When you're unable to respond to the substantive issues I raise you resort to ad hominem.

I have no social skills. So sue me.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

I'm a little confused on why we're listening to the Japanese (where are they anyway?) who created Haruki. I understand if this is a translation of originally Japanese works, but I understood this to be an effort by the English speaking community.

Nope, the Japanese started the Genderbending thing. Look at the very first few posts.

Originally Posted by Cat Megex

...I see.

Sigh...

Spoiler for angst:

Haruki stood by the railway tracks and began to talk.

"When I was in sixth grade, I went with my family to see a baseball game. I wasn't really interested in baseball. But when I went there, I was shocked. Everywhere I looked there were people all around, everywhere. The people at the opposite end of the stadium looked like grains of rice, all of them in constant motion. Back then, I thought that everyone in Japan had gathered to watch that game. So, I asked my mom how many people were at the stadium. She said as it was full that day, there were about fifty thousand people.

"After the game, the roads were packed with those people. Seeing all of this, I was completely stunned. There were so many people here, yet they were only a tiny fraction of the whole country. I had read in geography class that Japan had a population of a hundred million, so I went home and did the math. I found out that fifty thousand was only one out of two thousand of the total population. I was stunned again. I was only a small part of so many people in the stadium, and that many people again were only a small part of the whole country.

"Before that day, I had always thought that I was special. I was happy with my family, and I felt that the world’s most interesting people were in my class. Slowly, I began to realize the truth. The things that I experienced in school that I had thought were the happiest, most wonderful things in the world, happened in every school. For the whole country, the whole planet, they were just everyday occurrences. The whole world around me started to lose its color. I brush my teeth and go to sleep, then wake up and have breakfast. It’s the same day after day after boring day.

"My life became boring when I realized everything I did was just a part of everybody’s ordinary life. Since there are so many people in this world, there has to be someone who's living an extraordinary, exciting life. Someone out there has to be fighting aliens, rescuing princesses, and slaying giants. Why isn't that person me?

" I thought all about it before I graduated from elementary school. When I entered junior high, I decided to change myself. I wanted to let the world know: I'm not someone who’s just content to sit and wait. I’ve tried my best… but everything's the same as it's always been. And now I'm in high school, still hoping for something to change. But, at this rate, it’s never going to. Never."

Haruki said all this without pause. When he finished, his face twisted into an expression of regretting saying so much, and just stared at the ground in silence.

Might fix it a bit later, I dunno. Maybe have him complain about how it's "not fair".

Originally Posted by Cat Megex

@Miraploy: GO TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD, AND READ EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN IT. IF YOU HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, DO IT AGAIN.

Thank you for your support.

[xkazex]

You think he couldn't stand up to the pressure and ran away?

People are bit nutty these days, barging in after 580 pages of discussion and randomness only to disrupt and control the whole project.

Kaios has every right to be angry, maybe enough to be a serial killer, eh maybe not. Who wouldn't be after several months of effort and joy be insulted by a newcomer.

[ClockWorkAngel]

Oh I doubt he would run away...

Let them come to fare against,
the walls that we've put forth,
in jest and awe we'll see,
the firmness of one's girth.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by xkazex

You think he couldn't stand up to the pressure and ran away?

People are bit nutty these days, barging in after 580 pages of discussion and randomness only to disrupt and control the whole project.

Kaios has every right to be angry, maybe enough to be a serial killer, eh maybe not. Who wouldn't be after several months of effort and joy be insulted by a newcomer.

It's "Kaisos", not "Kaios", but yeah, that's exactly why I'm angry.

More of Boredom later tonight.

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Just...

God... fuck...

I've been here, from the very damned start, and you come in and tell me you want my job?

What the fuck?

Consider me the Obama of Haruhi, I'm here campaigning on competence and change despite your seniority.

@ClockWorkAngel, I don't disagree with anything you say, and your post doesn't disagree with mine either. But I understand you're defending Kaisos.

But if you actually re-read what I wrote,

If we were to change Mitsuruu to fit a predetermined mould, then Mitsuruu couldn't be called a representation of Mikuru right? And what's wrong with depicting a vulnerble male? There are such things as males with low self-esteem.

This is exactly what I agreed with. In fact, uh. Kaigso is the one who is disagreeing with you by refusing to depict a vulnerable male.

@Ithekro, I understand that it's not just for the lulz, as you can see I'm pretty serious about this too. I absolutely agree with keeping the plot intact and pretty much everything you said, it's the exploration of how Kyon and Haruhi's relationship would be different that's interesting.

Be that as it may, you seem very focused on the preception of "sexist" traits. Any reason for that?

I'm not a sexist, and dislike it.

One final comment on the double standards defense:

Double standards applies when society treats a woman or a man differently from the other gender. That's a fact of life and should be included in the story.

For example, if Haruhi hits Kyon, nobody cares. But if Haruki hits Kyonko, it wouldn't be acceptable.

But it would be inappropriate and sexist to change the character as per your ideas of how males and females should behave. That is, if Haruhi doesn't hit Kyon, but you make Haruki hit Kyonko.

Or a more pertinent example, if Haruhi has a vulnerable side and Haruki doesn't. That's not double standard, that's just screwing around arbitrarily with who the character is.

[ClockWorkAngel]

See Xd, the storm has come, let us see the firmness be contested.

And careful, you might be pointing out contradiction of your own, I'm simply stating my opinon nothing else

[Miraploy]

xkazex, I am RIGHT HERE. I can see how you're insulting me to my face.

If you're not able to address the issues I raise or my questions on character, then butt out. I'm being very respectful by responding to everything everyone has said point by point, and taking care to explain all my positions. I can only hope that everyone show me the same courtesy.

@ClockWorkAngel. EH? Don't make a vague comment. If I contradicted myself, then by all means call me out on it!

[Tyabann]

Let's just ignore him.

Like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, we don't accept first-timers here.

[Miraploy]

Well I really only have one point. Does everyone really think that Haruki should be some may or may not be appropriate amalgamation of anime tropes, rather than simply a masculine version of Haruhi?

If this is what the community thinks, then I guess I simply don't understand the project. But I find that a little unbelievable.

[xkazex]

Eh sorry about that misspelling your name there kaisos.

"But it would be inappropriate and sexist to change the character as per your ideas of how males and females should behave. That is, if Haruhi doesn't hit Kyon, but you make Haruki hit Kyonko."

Miraploy, wouldn't that further depict Haruki different to haruhi. By sticking with the same actions without following in on the reality of the gender behaviors in society, your making it seen as if the original Haruhi is corrupted and abusive person. By sticking with the standards, and adjusting the actions of Haruki we are better portraying him rather then what you are saying.

"Or a more pertinent example, if Haruhi has a vulnerable side and Haruki doesn't. That's not double standard, that's just screwing around arbitrarily with who the character is."

As given by society, and say several times before, men are also sentimental beings with emotional times. However, rather than showing it, it is much prefer that they are to live up to the status of a male by not showing their weak side, that doesn't say that they don't have a vulnerability. It is just pride and denial, and I daresay these traits are also given to Haruhi.

"I absolutely agree with keeping the plot intact and pretty much everything you said, it's the exploration of how Kyon and Haruhi's relationship would be different that's interesting."

A difference in the starting intentions and goal, perhaps.


dear god, longest post I made so far, and I don't know how to use the quote function.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Well I really only have one point. Does everyone really think that Haruki should be some may or may not be appropriate amalgamation of anime tropes, rather than simply a masculine version of Haruhi?

See, the problem is that a male version of Haruhi is the following:



(If that worked.)

Our version of Haruki practically defines our adaptation, and we really can't change it now.