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[Zakoo]

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

What does Israel have to do with the topic at hand?

There's plenty of things America is guilty of. Executing homosexuals, threatening to destroy other sovereign nations, funding the spread of holocaust denial and discriminating against ethnic/religious minorities and women (to name a few) aren't included.

And thus you did a scale of monstruosity and judged that executing homosexual/discrimination is worst than doing war like Vietnam or killing civilian.
ehrrrr ... yeah ... Common sense, once you hold us.

Have to agree with Mentar on this one, as always the propaganda "hurr hurr Iran is evil" worked pretty well.

Well anyway for sure, provoking America on this period is rather dumb, now none of the two can back off.

[Darkbeat]

Originally Posted by Zakoo

And thus you did a scale of monstruosity and judged that executing homosexual/discrimination is worst than doing war like Vietnam or killing civilian.
ehrrrr ... yeah ... Common sense, once you hold us.

Have to agree with Mentar on this one, as always the propaganda "hurr hurr Iran is evil" worked pretty well.

"Vietnam"? "Killing civilian"? What are you talking about?

America is guilty of plenty of things, but two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not defending America, but last I checked they aren't doing any of the things I listed, but Iran are.

You're ok with that?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

So in your opinion, America is as guilty as Iran. I'd assume you believe then that the Islamic Revolution in Iran was a direct result of America's support for the State of Israel? I think that's perhaps a little naive.

Cool ... first, you make unfounded assumptions (wrong ones, in fact), and then you chastise me for them in the same sentence? That's efficiency.

America is guilty for letting the Jewish lobby play "Wag the Dog" with America, first causing the change from "honest broker" to "ardent full supporter and enabler of Israel". In my opinion, Israel is on a breathtakingly self-destructive course with the Greater Israel plans, the illegal settlements, the Gaza blockade and structural oppression of the Palestinians, and last but not least the continuous alienation of former allies (e.g. Turkey). And America doesn't have the testicular fortitude to tell them off. Neither has Germany, unfortunately, but I can understand that with our past, we better keep our big mouths shut for once.

Regardless, that's a discussion for another time. The point is that Iran is now involved in incitement against America. This, as Xellos stated, is a rather dumb thing to do. Never mind America's military might, what exactly does this do for Iran's attempt to paint itself as the victim?

Are you aware that America and Israel are losing the political war in the middle east? Are you aware that all across the board, the new democracies are much more hostile towards America/Israel than the despots they replaced ever were? Are you aware that Iraq is about to enter another civil war, and this time one that the Shia are most likely to win? Are you aware what happens in Afghanistan? Are you aware that the alliance with Pakistan is stretched to the breaking point?

In the current political climate, an attack of America or Israel on Iran will have huge repercussions in the ME. Nevermind the harm to the world economy should the Strait of Hormuz be endangered or even closed. And America's military might can do sh*t about all that. It would immediately stabilize the inner problems Iran has, because the vast majority of citizens will side with their government. And that for the price of a few ships?

Who'd be the stupid one then?

[Zakoo]

Yes and ? The thing begin when somebody asked if others thought if Iran was the innocent in this situation (today), in what ways the fact that they don't respect humans right make them guilty in this situation.

As you said, each country is guilty of something, their past history and their present history, yet none of those two matter in what's happening between America and Iran.

Thus it's what I said, you consider that what Iran is doing now, is ... hmm more evil? and thus they are guilty. Isn't it what you are trying to say?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

There's plenty of things America is guilty of. Executing homosexuals,
threatening to destroy other sovereign nations,

Yea, America, the land where the homosexuals can live freely without persecution... *cough*

You're flat-out wrong on the second count. America's leading politicians regularly threaten other sovereign nations with war. Rick Santorum would bomb Iran. He's currently surging in the primaries. In modern times, no other nation has attacked other sovereign nations as regularly as the US.

funding the spread of holocaust denial

True. Then again, the US has the Murdoch empire and FoxNews. Let's call it a draw.

[Darkbeat]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Cool ... first, you make unfounded assumptions (wrong ones, in fact), and then you chastise me for them in the same sentence? That's efficiency.

Did I jump to conclusions? It was actually a bait more than an assumption, as I know nobody would really believe the Islamic Revolution was anyone's responsibility but that of the Iranian people. My bad

America is guilty for letting the Jewish lobby play "Wag the Dog" with America

Ouch. The Jewish lobby?

The largest group of pro-Israel support in America is the (hundreds of millions of) Evangelical Christians.

The American people are generally pro-Israel. That's how democracy works.

first causing the change from "honest broker" to "ardent full supporter and enabler of Israel".

Do you hate Canada too? Last I checked they were largely more pro-Israel than America. Same with Australia, Thailand, Czech Republic and a number of other countries.

America is still the World superpower (tm), so they have big responsibilities of course. I guess they just have a more balanced view of the Middle East than you do.

In my opinion, Israel is on a breathtakingly self-destructive course with the Greater Israel plans, the illegal settlements, the Gaza blockade and structural oppression of the Palestinians, and last but not least the continuous alienation of former allies (e.g. Turkey). And America doesn't have the testicular fortitude to tell them off. Neither has Germany, unfortunately, but I can understand that with our past, we better keep our big mouths shut for once.

You are entitled to your opinions, but none of the things listed have anything to do with Iran (outside of the Gaza blockade, enforced to cut down on transferal of weapons to Iran's terrorist proxy in the region; Hamas) so I'm going to move on.

Are you aware that America and Israel are losing the political war in the middle east? Are you aware that all across the board, the new democracies are much more hostile towards America/Israel than the despots they replaced ever were? Are you aware that Iraq is about to enter another civil war, and this time one that the Shia are most likely to win? Are you aware what happens in Afghanistan? Are you aware that the alliance with Pakistan is stretched to the breaking point?

The Jury in the Court of Public Opinion is still out. Last I saw, people are all too aware that Iran's bosum buddy Syria aren't exactly doing an awful lot to help the Middle East, what with their genocide and everything...

Iran's sabre-rattling doesn't help their case either, as stated above.

In the current political climate, an attack of America or Israel on Iran will have huge repercussions in the ME. Nevermind the harm to the world economy should the Strait of Hormuz be endangered or even closed. And America's military might can do sh*t about all that. It would immediately stabilize the inner problems Iran has, because the vast majority of citizens will side with their government. And that for the price of a few ships?

Who'd be the stupid one then?

I'm not a doomsday prophet, but I'd take any of the above over the potential results of Iran acquiring nukes.

[Mentar]

Lots of non sequiturs in your last posting.

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

Ouch. The Jewish lobby?

The largest group of pro-Israel support in America is the (hundreds of millions of) Evangelical Christians.

Yea, so what? AIPAC has a huge influence in American politics, because against them it's very difficult for a congressman to hold on to his seat, and extremely difficult for a president to be (re-)elected. Which is why Obama is having this disgraceful dance on eggshells, even though it's obvious he considers Netanyahu a liar and dislikes the Israeli line. Please don't tell me you're REALLY so naive and pretend that this influence doesn't exist.

The American people are generally pro-Israel. That's how democracy works.

It's changing slowly. The last polls I've seen have half of them denounce what Israel is doing with the Palestinians. But yea, the pro-Israeli media lock paired with the political ignorance of a large part of the US voters "works" indeed.

Do you hate Canada too? Last I checked they were largely more pro-Israel than America. Same with Australia, Thailand, Czech Republic and a number of other countries.

That's a pretty funny list of countries, ever heard of the term "raisin picking"?

One would have thought that former decade-long traditional allies like Turkey turning hostile or critical countries with peace treaties openly considering cancelling them like Egypt might give people pause to think. But naturally, if the Czech Republic gives a positive generic poll, things must be fine.

America is still the World superpower (tm), so they have big responsibilities of course. I guess they just have a more balanced view of the Middle East than you do.

Yep. When America is the sole veto against huge majorities in the UN, they're showing their balanced view.

You are entitled to your opinions, but none of the things listed have anything to do with Iran (outside of the Gaza blockade, enforced to cut down on transferal of weapons to Iran's terrorist proxy in the region; Hamas) so I'm going to move on.

How convenient. That Israel's policies towards the Palestinians are one of the main inflammatory points which are _causing_ the hostility of not only Iran is conveniently ignored.

The Jury in the Court of Public Opinion is still out. Last I saw, people are all too aware that Iran's bosum buddy Syria aren't exactly doing an awful lot to help the Middle East, what with their genocide and everything...

Haha ... are you at least aware that it's the Israeli government who tries to STABILIZE Assad? That they prefer a known enemy to an unknown quantity which might end up even more problematic for Israel? You might want to read up on that one.

If you want to delude yourself that "The Jury is out there", be my guest. It's not, the verdict has been spoken, and the more despots are toppling, the clearer the message becomes from those people whose voices aren't suppressed anymore.

[Darkbeat]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Lots of non sequiturs in your last posting.

It's midnight and I'm on Animesuki instead of in bed, forgive me?

Yea, so what? AIPAC has a huge influence in American politics, because against them it's very difficult for a congressman to hold on to his seat, and extremely difficult for a president to be (re-)elected. Which is why Obama is having this disgraceful dance on eggshells, even though it's obvious he considers Netanyahu a liar and dislikes the Israeli line. Please don't tell me you're REALLY so naive and pretend that this influence doesn't exist.

The influence exists, it just isn't as great as many believe it to be. The whole "Jewish lobby" thing smacks of Elders of Zion protocols.

The bottom line is that most Americans support Israel, so most American governments support Israel. Especially around election time...

It's changing slowly. The last polls I've seen have half of them denounce what Israel is doing with the Palestinians. But yea, the pro-Israeli media lock paired with the political ignorance of a large part of the US voters "works" indeed.

Actually it isn't, I read earlier in the year that now over 70% of Americans consider themselves to be "Pro-Israel", when in previous years it was in the 60s, take that as you may.

This isn't an Israel discussion, despite your best efforts to steer it in that direction, so you'll forgive me if I basically just fob off the rest of your arguments (and cause I'm tired and going to bed lol)

That's a pretty funny list of countries, ever heard of the term "raisin picking"?

Missed the point.

One would have thought that former decade-long traditional allies like Turkey turning hostile or critical countries with peace treaties openly considering cancelling them like Egypt might give people pause to think. But naturally, if the Czech Republic gives a positive generic poll, things must be fine.

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood wants to rethink the peace treaty! Could that be Militant Islam knocking at the door? If they want to give Israel the Sinai back then by all means...lol

Same deal with Turkey, Islam is the big influence. The Turkish opposition have been opposed (as you do) to Erdogan's policies towards Israel, least of all because they reeeeeeally want to be in Europe.

Yep. When America is the sole veto against huge majorities in the UN, they're showing their balanced view.

Not many countries have the veto, ya know.

How convenient. That Israel's policies towards the Palestinians are one of the main inflammatory points which are _causing_ the hostility of not only Iran is conveniently ignored.

The hostility of Iran started with the Islamic Revolution. The hostilities of Egypt could start with an Islamic Revolution. Seeing a tie here?

Haha ... are you at least aware that it's the Israeli government who tries to STABILIZE Assad? That they prefer a known enemy to an unknown quantity which might end up even more problematic for Israel? You might want to read up on that one.

Syria kills thousands of it's own people? Israel to blame!

Geez, you are determined today, aren't you?

[Mentar]

Only about the few relevant parts.

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood wants to rethink the peace treaty! Could that be Militant Islam knocking at the door? If they want to give Israel the Sinai back then by all means...lol

http://pewglobal.org/files/2011/04/P...il-25-2011.pdf

54% of all Egyptians are for annulling the treaty, 36% against. That's not just "Militant Islam", it's a clear majority of all citizens.

Same deal with Turkey, Islam is the big influence. The Turkish opposition have been opposed (as you do) to Erdogan's policies towards Israel, least of all because they reeeeeeally want to be in Europe.

I haven't been opposed to Erdogan's policies towards Israel. He's a thickheaded guy riding high on a huge wave of popularity not only in Turkey, but also in the entire middle east, who see Turkey as a beacon, an example of a relatively liberal and modern Islamist state. But I can hardly blame him for his position on Israel, particularly on the fiasco during the Gaza blockade and the subsequent childish public humiliation of the Turkish ambassador on Israeli TV.

Turkey is positioning themselves as a regional power and have reduced their attempts to join the EU (since they wouldn't be accepted due to several issues). Israel lost an ally here, and it's not going to come back unless there's some huge changes in Israel. But with Israel acting like the spoiled prince of an empire, that won't happen.

Not many countries have the veto, ya know.

Just pointing out that the US don't have a more "balanced" view. Unless you mean "fair and balanced".

What remains is a generation of people in the ME who grow up with Islam on the rise, and Israel positioning themselves as the enemy to Islam. And in Israel, a generation grows up full of conviction that their exceptionalism and military preeminence - paired with religious zealotry - _require_ them to continue their path to Greater Israel. After all, they're the victims.

This stance is going to end in tragedy, IMHO. The question is only when.

The hostility of Iran started with the Islamic Revolution. The hostilities of Egypt could start with an Islamic Revolution. Seeing a tie here?

How about coming up with measures to end the confrontation, then? Wouldn't that be the reaction of a rational mind? But let me guess: The others want to kill us, so you have no choice. Right?

[andyjay729]

http://start.toshiba.com/news/read.p...org%3E&ps=1018

Murder at the Queen's estate! Paging Hercule Poirot and Sherlock Holmes... Heck, even the Thompson twins or Inspector Clouseau will do.

[ganbaru]

JPMorgan sued for $95 million over mortgage securities
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8021AJ20120103

[aohige]

What the.... anyone with a logical state of mind cannot deny the enormous influence the Jewish community has over the American politics.

You can't possibly be serious.

[Ithekro]

We never did get an answer to what JC...'s original question was suppose to mean, did we?

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I am basing on supply and demand. With reduced demand and large surplus and store, price of Iranian oil will drop. At low prices, China might stand in to buy them up - the Chinese government may be corrupted, but I am sure they would flinch at the sight of a good deal.

Then explain to me why others are exempt from basic economic principles while China is not.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Then explain to me why others are exempt from basic economic principles while China is not.

What "basic economic principles" are you talking about? I am simply talking about China seeing it as a chance to buy more oil at cheap prices and providing Iran with the petrodollars it needs if the sanctions work out, and their regular clients turn to other oil-producers instead; either way, Iran still gets their petrodollars.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

What "basic economic principles" are you talking about? I am simply talking about China seeing it as a chance to buy more oil at cheap prices and providing Iran with the petrodollars it needs if the sanctions work out, and their regular clients turn to other oil-producers instead; either way, Iran still gets their petrodollars.

"Supply and demand", isn't that one of the most basic economic principles? As for sanctions, as far as I am aware, China hasn't (and is not going to) break any UN sanctions against Iran; US sanctions has no binding power over China, nor does it have any over EU, Japan or SK. So that's the question: why aren't the others affected by "supply and demand"?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

"Supply and demand", isn't that one of the most basic economic principles? As for sanctions, as far as I am aware, China hasn't (and is not going to) break any UN sanctions against Iran; US sanctions has no binding power over China, nor does it have any over EU, Japan or SK. So that's the question: why aren't the others affected by "supply and demand"?

What are you talking about? I am talking about China being able to buy oil at lower prices from Iran should the sanctions kick in fully and their previous importers have to turn to an alternative source of oil, which then the price of Iranian oil will drop allowing China to secure supply contracts at lower prices.

China is not supporting the sanction, thusmaking them the few remaining importer of Iranian oil.

EDIT :

It already happened : China wants discounts!

[MrTerrorist]

Top Singapore ministers face pay cuts of up to 51%

I'll doubt we'll ever see US politicians do the same thing. Then again, since Singaporean officials earn more than their American counterparts...

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

EDIT :

It already happened : China wants discounts!

The only facts that it has is the (somewhat dubious) data:

China, which bought 11 percent of its oil from Iran during the first 11 months of last year, has cut its January purchase by about 285,000 barrels per day, more than half of the close to 550,000 bpd that it bought through a 2011 contract.

I don't know how much in advance nations map out such trades, but we are only 4 days in January, and it is unclear to me whether they are talking about the purchase for recent days or for the whole month.

All the rest of the claims are not supported by facts at all thus merely speculation. (Search "China" in that article and see how many instances it make claims like you did and how often it is backed-up by hard facts).

Reuters also said in another article:

That U.S. sanctions threat could be a worry for China, the biggest buyer of Iranian oil, followed by India and Japan.

The data I posted earlier about EU (which was for 2010) shows that China became "the biggest buyer" not long ago.

Given what's mentioned in this Asashi Shinbun article, it will be quite inconvenient for Japan to cut off its import from Iran.

“Since (the stricter sanctions by the United States) could impact Japanese economy significantly, we have notified the U.S. government of our concern,” Foreign Minister Koichiro Genba said at a news conference on Dec. 16.

I wonder how the Japanese import from Iran is doing recently. If it dropped, should we consider them to be bargaining hard also?


-----------------------------------------------------------

Let me add something more, which is from today's news.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sou...ion-2012-01-04

South Korean Finance Minister Bahk Jae-wan said Wednesday that it won't be easy to reduce dependence on crude oil from Iran.

Japanese foreign minister Koichiro Gemba said he had told U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that the sanctions "could have negative effects on the global economy, including private consumption in the U.S."

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Top Singapore ministers face pay cuts of up to 51%

I'll doubt we'll ever see US politicians do the same thing. Then again, since Singaporean officials earn more than their American counterparts...

Populist politics. They cut their pay because the people demanded it.....watch them raise it again after winning the next election.

Considering that my country is run like a gigantic mega cap corp, be prepared to see the same antics as those big corporations in US do.