AnimeSuki Forums

TronDD · 2004-02-12, 12:54

The movie trailer has me curious about the manga. If the story is as bitchin as the CG in the movie, it should kick some ass. Better not just be mindless action.

What do you think of the manga? It's only 4 books, right?

SimplyEd · 2004-02-12, 13:36

Appleseed is one of the best manga ever imo, but maybe i should give out a small warning, cause the story in itself is not to be taken lightly, which means, that while it is literally action-packed it's still quite "shirowesque" or in other words pretty confusing at times. Just like GitS manga 1&2.
Well, it was ages ago since i bought all of them and i'm still waiting for Shirow to finish his masterpiece, hopefully the new movie will light his fire once again, let's pray, i would say^^

TronDD · 2004-02-12, 13:40

I just noticed it's the same person who wrote GitS. I haven't read that manga but I enjoyed the movie and GitS SAC. Sounds like it'll be worth picking up. I'll have to see if the book store has it.

babbito2k · 2004-02-12, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyEd

...it's still quite "shirowesque"

"shirovian" is probably a handier neologism...

Briareos · 2004-02-12, 17:18

Appleseed is (in my outspoken opinion) the best of Shirow's work. He's been working on it his entire career as a manga artist, so it's also interesting to see Shirow's talent in drawing progress, especially if you compare vol1 and vol4. The story is both action packed and philosophical -- there's a lot of prose in places --, and the world of Appleseed is extremely detailed and feels complete.

I hope you like it. There are four volumes of manga, a Databook (which is unfortunately missing a large part of the Appleseed Encyclopedia found in the Japanese version), and a partial release of volume 5 called "Hypernotes" which will not likely ever (according to Toren Smith, from the mouth of Shirow) be collected in English. It has been serialized in Dark Horse's "Super Manga Blast" since issue #25. (Note: Hypernotes contains a lot of stories from different Shirow creations, including a lot of straight prose on Appleseed and other worlds -- Dark Horse is translating ALL of it this time, so what you'll find in SMB currently (Feb '04) is mostly prose. The Appleseed manga part, that started in SMB#25, is done.)

A note to those new to Shirow: Shirow's storytelling can be a little off-putting at first (and admittedly some never like it). His stories aren't usually told in a conventional manner. They're full of technical details (mostly done in side notes) of real world machinery and details about the amazing things he makes up, as well as personal a philosophical notes related to the story at hand. It took me several readings of Appleseed to comprehend most (if not all) of what was going on, and I liked it more each time I read it. Shirow is at heart a teacher, and he feels that he can reach more people through manga than through the classroom. Don't let all that dissuade you, though. Appleseed is a pure work of art, and a wonderful experience.

Baba · 2004-02-14, 07:49

As it has been said before, the applessed manga rocks (it was my first encounter with the work of Shirow). The story is good, more action oriented than Ghost in the Shell and less web oriented. The art is nice, and, well, I really don't have anything bad to say about appleseed except that it's too damn short.
By the way, I've heard the movie sucks, so don't base your opinion on that.

tsurumaru · 2004-02-14, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baba

As it has been said before, the applessed manga rocks (it was my first encounter with the work of Shirow). The story is good, more action oriented than Ghost in the Shell and less web oriented. The art is nice, and, well, I really don't have anything bad to say about appleseed except that it's too damn short.
By the way, I've heard the movie sucks, so don't base your opinion on that.

There was a non CG Appleseed movie released back in the 90's (god that sounds scary the way I've said it) which I think was licensed by Manga Entertainment. I guess you're referring to this as the CG version hasn't been released yet.
The original movie didn't really live up to the potential of the series IMHO (and had a crap American Dub which didn't help) so I'm looking to the CG movie to restore my faith in animated media for this series.

Briareos · 2004-02-17, 10:48

The previous Appleseed anime was actually an OAV, and yes it was quite lacking IMO. Even though it was loosely based on the first two volumes of the manga, the world really didn't feel like Appleseed at all.
http://www.animenfo.com/animetitle,4...appleseed.html
The upcoming CG Appleseed Movie will be the first time that Appleseed has been on the big screen. I'm hoping they do a good job of translating Shirow's works to the big screen without taking Shirow out of the work.

Even though I like Oshii's Ghost in the Shell film, I feel that the film is an extremely watered down version of Shirow's world. When I first saw it, I didn't like it because it was so different than the feel, depth, humanity, humor and complexity of the manga. I now appreciate Oshii's vision, but I don't see it as a good representation of Shirow's work. GITS:SAC is much closer. I hope that the Appleseed film will remain close to the source material.

Back on the topic of the Appleseed manga: I agree that Appleseed is too short. Shirow has never been quick to produce/release anything, and therefore his manga are few and far between. I'd rather have quality than quantity from Shirow though. Unfortunately Toren Smith (of Studio Proteus) has said that Shirow doesn't know when (or if) he'll be doing more Appleseed. Toren related that Shirow felt his releasing of Appleseed Hypernotes was a mistake since his final vision of Appleseed Vol 5 is much different, and the Hypernotes stores will (perhaps) be re-ordered and modified. Since Shirow changes his mind a lot, only time will tell.

What is clear is that Shirow's work is moving into the digital realm, so more than likely, if we see Appleseed 5 it will be a digital work that far surpasses GITS:MMI. I remember Shirow saying (in an interview) that in a few years he wasn't sure he'd be able to still draw Deunan to his satisfaction. A perfectionist to the end. I just hope he eventually does more. The infiltration of a cargo ship at sea from the Hypernotes stories is fantastic.

hunterx · 2004-02-17, 11:05

The manga is sort of "old" but you can see a familiarity with Ghost in the Shell right away (same author). The same familiarity is also there in Dominion Tank police (same author too). Initially I found the manga an interesting read but it quickly got confusing. some of the fight scenes are hard to grasp, I just stopped reading it halfway through.

more info here

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/juzzam1/index.htm

SimplyEd · 2004-02-17, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briareos

What is clear is that Shirow's work is moving into the digital realm, so more than likely, if we see Appleseed 5 it will be a digital work that far surpasses GITS:MMI. I remember Shirow saying (in an interview) that in a few years he wasn't sure he'd be able to still draw Deunan to his satisfaction. A perfectionist to the end. I just hope he eventually does more. The infiltration of a cargo ship at sea from the Hypernotes stories is fantastic.

Yeah, i remember that statement too, i think it's from one of his Intron Depot artbooks, which illustrate his glorious progress in the digital realm in such a stunning way^^
Personally i don't think that he would actually "forget" how to draw Deunan or that she would look out of place if he would decide to continue his work. If you think of the progress he made during his active work on Appleseed you would come to the same conclusion, cause at the temporary end she already looked completely different from when he started the manga, a lot like his recent, sophisticated female heroines. You already mentioned that Shirow is a perfectionist, i would even say a genius at what he does, so i'm positive that one day we will be able to see his impression of the end of Appleseed.
Soon Intron Depot 4 will be published, maybe there will be some new clues on that matter in there.

Briareos · 2004-02-18, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyEd

Yeah, i remember that statement too, i think it's from one of his Intron Depot artbooks, which illustrate his glorious progress in the digital realm in such a stunning way^^
Personally i don't think that he would actually "forget" how to draw Deunan or that she would look out of place if he would decide to continue his work. If you think of the progress he made during his active work on Appleseed you would come to the same conclusion, cause at the temporary end she already looked completely different from when he started the manga, a lot like his recent, sophisticated female heroines...

I find his progression to digital a mixed bag. I'm actually much more fond of his older work around Appleseed Volumes 3-4. I look at it this way though. Shirow improved drestically in analog art between Appleseed 1 & 4. I enjoyed the art of Volume 1, but didn't find it great (although the imagination put into the work is fantastic). By Volume 4 I loved his art. MMI is his first big foray into fully digital storytelling. I can only imagine how much Shirow has and will improve (the art in ID3 is early digital work for Shirow for the most part) with his digital artwork until it is something I love again.

Yes, Deunan has changed drastically (especially her hair -- love the 80's Linda Hamilton hairdo from Volume 1

) and I like the way she's "grown up" with Shirow's talent. I don't know if Shirow meant that he would forget how to draw her (and other characters), but I think he may not be able to draw them to his satisfaction for one reason or another. I'll have to read ID3 again to see if that's where he was talking about possibly rendering 3D models for all of Appleseed, or if it was something from Toren Smith at the now disbanded Studio Proteus website.

I would go as far as calling Shirow a genius as well. I don't think many artists can create "complete" worlds that feel real like he does. Politics, architecture, mechanical design, monitary systems, secret organizations, interesting and very human characters -- all bundeled together in a believable world of his own creation.

TronDD · 2004-02-19, 16:41

Woohoo, just got the 4 Appleseed books and Ghost in the Shell.

Briareos, you're right about the change in art between book 1 and 4. Quite a difference.

Well, back to reading.

TronDD · 2004-02-24, 08:06

Finished reading Appleseed and I loved it. Book 3 was my favorite. It really took off with the action and had more philosophy. Shirow definaly does create a complete and detailed world. So believable it's unbelievable.

I've got Ghost in the Shell to read now. Then I'll probably read Appleseed again.

Briareos · 2004-02-25, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by TronDD

Finished reading Appleseed and I loved it. Book 3 was my favorite. It really took off with the action and had more philosophy. Shirow definaly does create a complete and detailed world. So believable it's unbelievable.

I've got Ghost in the Shell to read now. Then I'll probably read Appleseed again.

I'm glad you like it. Let me know what new things you notice in your second read.

Speaking of action, my favorite action sequence in Appleseed is the knife/short-sword fight between Deunan and the three guys in Vol4 ("Let's dance, shit for brains!"

), although the whole Orc sequence in Vol3 is great.

I love the fact that Deunan and Briareos' relationship is so subtle: They never get along perfectly (just like real life), and when they do have problems the focus of the story is never really on a "solution" to the problem. Things work out, and get worked out naturally.

The one thing I don't hear many people talk about is Shirow's humor. I still laugh every time I see Sokaki (the mercenary 'borg who causes trouble throughout Vol4) giving Fang and his partner the Boobytrap 101 speach in Vol4 ("My Vacation!" "The purpose of this...is to buy time. Worked too.").

Enjoy Ghost in the Shell. It's nothing like GITS2:MMI, just like Dominion and Dominion: Conflict 1 are nothing like each other. Dominion, Orion, and Black Magic are Shirows other (lesser known) works. Dominion is a comedy where the police have gone to the extreme and now use tanks to combat crime. Orion is also a comedy set in a world where science and magic (and the gods) are inseparable. Black Magic is a series of related short stories and is actually Shirow's very first work, predating Appleseed Vol1. (Shirow doesn't care much for Black Magic.) I'd recommend these books only if you really really like Shirow's work.

TronDD · 2004-03-18, 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briareos

The one thing I don't hear many people talk about is Shirow's humor. I still laugh every time I see Sokaki (the mercenary 'borg who causes trouble throughout Vol4) giving Fang and his partner the Boobytrap 101 speach in Vol4 ("My Vacation!" "The purpose of this...is to buy time. Worked too.").

I like his humor too. I just re-read book 3 and I like the apendix.

I have a question about book 3.

Spoiler:

Artemis is the best cat girl ever.

Oh yeah, I love when she eats the two moths or butterflies in the park.

2004-02-12, 12:54	Link #1
TronDD Team the box! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Badside	Appleseed manga The movie trailer has me curious about the manga. If the story is as bitchin as the CG in the movie, it should kick some ass. Better not just be mindless action. What do you think of the manga? It's only 4 books, right?

2004-02-12, 13:36	Link #2
SimplyEd Claytard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: U.M.N. Age: 45	Appleseed is one of the best manga ever imo, but maybe i should give out a small warning, cause the story in itself is not to be taken lightly, which means, that while it is literally action-packed it's still quite "shirowesque" or in other words pretty confusing at times. Just like GitS manga 1&2. Well, it was ages ago since i bought all of them and i'm still waiting for Shirow to finish his masterpiece, hopefully the new movie will light his fire once again, let's pray, i would say^^

2004-02-12, 13:40	Link #3
TronDD Team the box! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Badside	I just noticed it's the same person who wrote GitS. I haven't read that manga but I enjoyed the movie and GitS SAC. Sounds like it'll be worth picking up. I'll have to see if the book store has it.

2004-02-12, 17:18	Link #5
Briareos Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA Age: 53	Appleseed is (in my outspoken opinion) the best of Shirow's work. He's been working on it his entire career as a manga artist, so it's also interesting to see Shirow's talent in drawing progress, especially if you compare vol1 and vol4. The story is both action packed and philosophical -- there's a lot of prose in places --, and the world of Appleseed is extremely detailed and feels complete. I hope you like it. There are four volumes of manga, a Databook (which is unfortunately missing a large part of the Appleseed Encyclopedia found in the Japanese version), and a partial release of volume 5 called "Hypernotes" which will not likely ever (according to Toren Smith, from the mouth of Shirow) be collected in English. It has been serialized in Dark Horse's "Super Manga Blast" since issue #25. (Note: Hypernotes contains a lot of stories from different Shirow creations, including a lot of straight prose on Appleseed and other worlds -- Dark Horse is translating ALL of it this time, so what you'll find in SMB currently (Feb '04) is mostly prose. The Appleseed manga part, that started in SMB#25, is done.) A note to those new to Shirow: Shirow's storytelling can be a little off-putting at first (and admittedly some never like it). His stories aren't usually told in a conventional manner. They're full of technical details (mostly done in side notes) of real world machinery and details about the amazing things he makes up, as well as personal a philosophical notes related to the story at hand. It took me several readings of Appleseed to comprehend most (if not all) of what was going on, and I liked it more each time I read it. Shirow is at heart a teacher, and he feels that he can reach more people through manga than through the classroom. Don't let all that dissuade you, though. Appleseed is a pure work of art, and a wonderful experience.

2004-02-14, 07:49	Link #6
Baba Grouky Freak Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Paris, France Age: 44	As it has been said before, the applessed manga rocks (it was my first encounter with the work of Shirow). The story is good, more action oriented than Ghost in the Shell and less web oriented. The art is nice, and, well, I really don't have anything bad to say about appleseed except that it's too damn short. By the way, I've heard the movie sucks, so don't base your opinion on that.

2004-02-17, 10:48	Link #8
Briareos Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA Age: 53	The previous Appleseed anime was actually an OAV, and yes it was quite lacking IMO. Even though it was loosely based on the first two volumes of the manga, the world really didn't feel like Appleseed at all. http://www.animenfo.com/animetitle,4...appleseed.html The upcoming CG Appleseed Movie will be the first time that Appleseed has been on the big screen. I'm hoping they do a good job of translating Shirow's works to the big screen without taking Shirow out of the work. Even though I like Oshii's Ghost in the Shell film, I feel that the film is an extremely watered down version of Shirow's world. When I first saw it, I didn't like it because it was so different than the feel, depth, humanity, humor and complexity of the manga. I now appreciate Oshii's vision, but I don't see it as a good representation of Shirow's work. GITS:SAC is much closer. I hope that the Appleseed film will remain close to the source material. Back on the topic of the Appleseed manga: I agree that Appleseed is too short. Shirow has never been quick to produce/release anything, and therefore his manga are few and far between. I'd rather have quality than quantity from Shirow though. Unfortunately Toren Smith (of Studio Proteus) has said that Shirow doesn't know when (or if) he'll be doing more Appleseed. Toren related that Shirow felt his releasing of Appleseed Hypernotes was a mistake since his final vision of Appleseed Vol 5 is much different, and the Hypernotes stores will (perhaps) be re-ordered and modified. Since Shirow changes his mind a lot, only time will tell. What is clear is that Shirow's work is moving into the digital realm, so more than likely, if we see Appleseed 5 it will be a digital work that far surpasses GITS:MMI. I remember Shirow saying (in an interview) that in a few years he wasn't sure he'd be able to still draw Deunan to his satisfaction. A perfectionist to the end. I just hope he eventually does more. The infiltration of a cargo ship at sea from the Hypernotes stories is fantastic.

2004-02-17, 11:05	Link #9
hunterx ore wa kanpeki da Join Date: Nov 2003	The manga is sort of "old" but you can see a familiarity with Ghost in the Shell right away (same author). The same familiarity is also there in Dominion Tank police (same author too). Initially I found the manga an interesting read but it quickly got confusing. some of the fight scenes are hard to grasp, I just stopped reading it halfway through. more info here http://mywebpages.comcast.net/juzzam1/index.htm

2004-02-19, 16:41	Link #12
TronDD Team the box! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Badside	Woohoo, just got the 4 Appleseed books and Ghost in the Shell. Briareos, you're right about the change in art between book 1 and 4. Quite a difference. Well, back to reading.

2004-02-24, 08:06	Link #13
TronDD Team the box! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Badside	Finished reading Appleseed and I loved it. Book 3 was my favorite. It really took off with the action and had more philosophy. Shirow definaly does create a complete and detailed world. So believable it's unbelievable. I've got Ghost in the Shell to read now. Then I'll probably read Appleseed again.