[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Beatrice's game isn't Rokkenjima Prime. It was in fact designed NOT to be.

But it's still possible to derive the truth of Prime from the games. It has to be, or else the game would be absolutely pointless. Yasu's bottles were meant to give her identity, a cry for help, right? But Tohya's bottles were meant to deal with Battler's memories, which must include Prime in there some where.

My point is that although it was never outright stated, what happened on October 4th and 5th of 1986 is there in the games.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But i am still bothered, that both Will and Battler "found the truth", but only Battler got sorcerer status and also, unlike Will, understands more than just the gameboard. As I already wrote in an earlier post, I think that the truth they reached about the gameboard - and about 'Yasu' - are different. But if we assume that Battler didn't have more knowledge at that point than Will had, what is the reason they reached different conclusions? Was it Will's lack of EP5 knowledge? I think he said he found the truth after looking through the first 4 games, but he did not look into the next games... or maybe he just missed all the meta-scenes?

Well, I agree that what Battler and Will solved were different things. But only really that Battler solved both the gameboards AND regained his Prime memories. So, I think they reached the SAME conclusion, but Battler probably had the bonus of knowing some of what went down in Prime. And then he ACCEPTED the invitation to serve as the new Beatrice, weaving new games. I'd also mention that Will is ... well, a different sort of being than Battler. He SEEMS to be the combination of the 20 Van Dine rules and "readers that aren't such jackasses". I don;t even know what it would mean for a character like him or Dlanor to go around creating mysteries, since their very existence is to hold the mysteries of others up toa certain scrutiny. Yeah, there's the matter of Lambda apparently weaving a game on her own, but she's already a witch, anyways, and there's been ALOT of discussion about how End was written, anyways, since it's such a weird gameboard.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

But it's still possible to derive the truth of Prime from the games. It has to be, or else the game would be absolutely pointless. Yasu's bottles were meant to give her identity, a cry for help, right? But Tohya's bottles were meant to deal with Battler's memories, which must include Prime in there some where.

My point is that although it was never outright stated, what happened on October 4th and 5th of 1986 is there in the games.

I'm sorry to say you seem to just be encountering the same thing that left some people unsatisfied with the ending - there's no way to verify what the truth of Prime is without Ryukishi just telling us, and the vast majority of EP8 seems to be him saying he not only has no interest in doing so, but that it's better this way, too. Just because Tohya's stories may have worked in some of his actual fragmented memory doesn't mean it's possible to work out what those bits were, or how major or minor those details are, and I think to think otherwise, based on what's currently available, is a bit of wishful thinking.

[Drifloon]

Well, this implies, to me, that Ryukishi believes you can deduce the truth of Prime from the game:

K The ideas about what actually happened in the real world are really diverse.

R One of the things that you can really know from within the story is that „Eva knew something but decided to never to tell Ange about it.“. Based on that many different things have been said in the meta world, and there were also several depictions that hinted at the truth, and it might be a common factor that interpretations on that will diverge. If you start thinking from that point though, even if some small parts are different, you can guess that on this island „a regretable incident happened because of certain actions that those people took“. It’s sufficient if you start thinking further from there. Why was it that Beatrice said so often „It all becomes easier once you accept the witch!“?!

That said, Prime doesn't really interest me, honestly. I'm much more interested in the mysteries of the gameboards that we actually saw play out. Prime's just a huge cat box, there isn't really any kind of intriguing mystery in there or even anything that appears impossible. You could claim anything happened.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I'm sorry to say you seem to just be encountering the same thing that left some people unsatisfied with the ending

Nah, that's what makes this even more fun. The game can continue as long as we, the players, want. A mystery game ends when the answer is given, like what Gaap said back in EP7. I'm sure Ryukishi knows what happened on Prime, and if he finds someone create a theory that matches his...

[GreyZone]

a new umineko manga with the name "logic game" will be released soon. Maybe it will have some answers? Or is it just an old side story i don't know about?

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Nah, that's what makes this even more fun. The game can continue as long as we, the players, want. A mystery game ends when the answer is given, like what Gaap said back in EP7. I'm sure Ryukishi knows what happened on Prime, and if he finds someone create a theory that matches his...

But then our reasoning will only go around in an endless circle, as it does now... how many times were we repeating the "who is Ikuko"-discussions? And the results? Pros and Cons were given, but nobody changed their opinion about it... so basicly I think we "discussed enough already". Until last month i saw updates in Spoilers/Discussions/Theories almost every hour. Now it's just around 2 posts per day. And if nothing great happens, like the translation of "Our Confessions", then the discussion will just drop till everyone is bored of the catbox, just as it happened in EP8 prime, after Ikuko refused publishing the book of one truth.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

a new umineko manga with the name "logic game" will be released soon. Maybe it will have some answers? Or is it just an old side story i don't know about?

If it's a sidestory I haven't head of it either... I'd love if it were to have some answers... or at least some extra material... I'd also love a manga version of Our confession though...

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But then our reasoning will only go around in an endless circle, as it does now... how many times were we repeating the "who is Ikuko"-discussions? And the results? Pros and Cons were given, but nobody changed their opinion about it... so basicly I think we "discussed enough already". Until last month i saw updates in Spoilers/Discussions/Theories almost every hour. Now it's just around 2 posts per day. And if nothing great happens, like the translation of "Our Confessions", then the discussion will just drop till everyone is bored of the catbox, just as it happened in EP8 prime, after Ikuko refused publishing the book of one truth.

Well, new theories came up and people considered them and I think the discussion also gets more intense when someone new with new logic ideas and new perspectives join the theorizing.

Though it's true that it's hard to prove things as long as answers aren't given and that if the same people keep on discussing it, after a certain while they'll reach the point where there's nothing else they can come up with.

... though the reason why people stopped discussing in EP 8 is implied to be more due to morality issues than lack of material.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, new theories came up and people considered them and I think the discussion also gets more intense when someone new with new logic ideas and new perspectives join the theorizing.

Though it's true that it's hard to prove things as long as answers aren't given and that if the same people keep on discussing it, after a certain while they'll reach the point where there's nothing else they can come up with.

... though the reason why people stopped discussing in EP 8 is implied to be more due to morality issues than lack of material.

Maybe if we all reach a point of agreement, send in our blue truth to Ryukishi and make him respond? You know you want to try, no matter how unreasonably impossible it will be!

Originally Posted by GreyZone

And if nothing great happens, like the translation of "Our Confessions", then the discussion will just drop till everyone is bored of the catbox, just as it happened in EP8 prime, after Ikuko refused publishing the book of one truth.

That's true too. I'm more upset I couldn't have joined in on the theorizing all the way back when EP1 was actually released instead almost a year after EP8 comes out.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Maybe if we all reach a point of agreement, send in our blue truth to Ryukishi and make him respond? You know you want to try, no matter how unreasonably impossible it will be!

There's the problem I can't speak Japanese... and I'm not sure if we can reach an agreement... through Ryukishi is probably keeping an eye to the Japanese message board so maybe he'll hand out more answers in the future... let's hope the new manga will be something like that!

[RandomAvatarFan]

Okay, I was going through the script, and I found all the prizes for the quizzes. Is it possible to get the very first one (toilet brush) and the last one (Mr. Jiro Tomitake) or are they just easter eggs? If its possible, I would love to learn how to get them. I can get zero medals, but still only get a message card from everyone, and not a toilet brush. Still, I want to see Ange throw Mr. Jiro Tomitake overboard...

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Okay, I was going through the script, and I found all the prizes for the quizzes. Is it possible to get the very first one (toilet brush) and the last one (Mr. Jiro Tomitake) or are they just easter eggs? If its possible, I would love to learn how to get them. I can get zero medals, but still only get a message card from everyone, and not a toilet brush. Still, I want to see Ange throw Mr. Jiro Tomitake overboard...

I know if you got all of them right, you get a "Beatrice Doll" at some point, but i am not sure at which point that happened.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Okay, I was going through the script, and I found all the prizes for the quizzes. Is it possible to get the very first one (toilet brush) and the last one (Mr. Jiro Tomitake) or are they just easter eggs? If its possible, I would love to learn how to get them. I can get zero medals, but still only get a message card from everyone, and not a toilet brush. Still, I want to see Ange throw Mr. Jiro Tomitake overboard...

You can only get Tomitake by twiddling the game code, I think.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I'm still confused about the toilet brush... it's zero medals for the message card, but zero medals + quiz failed for the brush...how would you do that?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Well, this implies, to me, that Ryukishi believes you can deduce the truth of Prime from the game:

Hey, I was just thinking about this while I was re-reading EP1-2 and I believe there are a few things we can figure out about Rokkenjima Prime.

Most notably, that Eva survived and has the ring and succeeded in the Ushiromiya headship. And of course that she took guardianship of Ange. I think these were things that Tooya wrote about in a way of reconciling the Battler in his memories with Ange, who technically disappeared after her fall from the building.

In any case, how this relates to Beatrice is that most likely her plan to execute the Epitaph Ceremony failed and that Eva did solve the Epitaph, because she had to give the ring to Eva. And so, in the end her gambit to free Shannon failed, and all personalities died, similar to the way shown in EP7, where she became just a shell of a person.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

In any case, how this relates to Beatrice is that most likely her plan to execute the Epitaph Ceremony failed and that Eva did solve the Epitaph, because she had to give the ring to Eva. And so, in the end her gambit to free Shannon failed, and all personalities died, similar to the way shown in EP7, where she became just a shell of a person.

I don't think so. Beatrice became a shell after she had realized that she was the heir to the family fortune as well as Kinzo's illegitimate child.

Ultimately, she realized that all her experiences were the result of a predetermined fate or destiny, leading up to her being Beatrice. However, she didn't want this. She wanted Battler to get her off the island but now that she was Beatrice, the heir to the Ushiromiya fortune, she's bounded to the island as its master with the only way of freeing herself would be to pass the fortune on to somebody else.

So, really, Eva's solving of the puzzle was more or less a blessing, though I don't think it was exactly what she had in mind.

[Prototype909]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

She wanted Battler to get her off the island but now that she was Beatrice, the heir to the Ushiromiya fortune, she's bounded to the island as its master with the only way of freeing herself would be to pass the fortune on to somebody else.

So, really, Eva's solving of the puzzle was more or less a blessing, though I don't think it was exactly what she had in mind.

Episode 5 - This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.

Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

[Drifloon]

Besides, she'd already left the headship to Krauss anyway. I don't see why she'd still feel any responsibility.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Prototype909

Episode 5 - This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.

The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.

Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

Those red truths were made under the rule that the gold belongs to her, as the assumption was that she was doing the murders for some monetary gain. However, if the epitaph was solved, the gold would no longer be her's, and so she gains nothing. Yet, she is liberated from being heir to the Ushiromiya fortune, which is what she wants.

[kevan3]

This may seem weird, but how many times is Mortal Stampede played in all 8 Episodes?

[Drifloon]

Off the top of my head, it's played once in EP4 (George vs Gaap) and once in EP6 (George vs EVA-Beatrice). Not sure if it's used anywhere else.

[Jan-Poo]

Easily done.
Let's see... it appeared first on Episode 4 where it was used twice. First in the middle of the fight between Jessica and Ronove, not the first sequence, the second.
Then it's used again during the fight between George and Gaap, but this happens after Kyrie's group begins their escape.

As for chiru... only once, during the fight between George and Eva in EP6, like drifloon mentioned