Favorite Couples (Shoujo-ai Discussion Thread)

[Befgrek]

Tough question... To be honest, I've never really cared as much about ShizNat as I, as a fan of yuri/shoujo-ai, feel I _should_ have cared. Too much of a lolicon, I guess... (Oh shi-) Actually, It might have something to do with the fact that there already are so many people obsessing over them I feel those people are also doing my part for me.

Anyway, ErstinxNina sort of exist in the show, so I naturally support that... and Chie is just too awesome, so I'm all for ChiexAoi as well. (Wait, what happened to my love for loli?) Well, in the end, I guess my vote has to go to the Ant and the Queen(wannabe). They don't really fit together in a romantic way, making a relationship between them wrong in so many ways... Of course, you've got to support that. This show needs more surprises, anyway.

[Bloody]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

I want Mai/Natsuki.

Ohh yeah , I forgot ... I knew I was missing something >_<

Originally Posted by vodkakiss

Physically yes. Emotionally? I don't think so, even Shizuru said it herself, "I'll let you do w/e you want till..." <--- marks the death of Tom...>.> We can also argue that Shizuru was forced into *cough* Tomoe, sacrificing herself for the bigger picture

Thats why I hate Sunrise so much , they changed Shizuru personality In Otome T_T

Now where ish my million bucks?

*lol* (nice one) dont worry .... Ill can handle that

[riznar]

Originally Posted by Bloody

Thats why I hate Sunrise so much , they changed Shizuru personality In Otome T_T

You liked Shizuru the insane stalker?

[Bloody]

Originally Posted by riznar

You liked Shizuru the insane stalker?

XD , not really ... I like Shizuru Obssessed At Natsuki all the time

Edit: Shizuru ... is not a stalker

[TheDisruptiveOne]

Why does Shizuru have to be the same as she was in Mai Hime? This is an alternate universe. (The Miyu thing isn't enough evidence for me to believe it's the same universe).

[philip72]

Originally Posted by riznar

You liked Shizuru the insane stalker?

Shizuru never stalked Natsuki.
She always held back, loving from a distance and helping where she could, until after she saved Natsuki from Nao and was overcome with temptation.
After the revelation of her crush she still never stalked her, instead leaving Natsuki and going after her enemies (who really were her enemies), and coming to her rescue to save her from Nao (who was the one actually insanely stalking Natsuki).
For the final battle Natsuki sought her out and started the fight, not Shizuru.
Nao stalked Natsuki, but Shizuru, although she lost her mind for a bit, never did.
Inappropriate touching yes, stalking no.

[riznar]

You're reacting a bit strongly to me, I meant no offense and was half-joking.

But seriously, Shizuru really creeped me out in HiME. She was sorta goofy up until the end, but the inappropriate touching while Natsuki slept destroyed anything I liked about her. I consider her Otome version infinately better.

[TheDisruptiveOne]

She is much better in Otome. Her actions are hard to defend in Mai Hime. Natsuki was a loner in the series. She didn't really have any friends or anyone to seek comfort from. Shizuru became the most important person in her life. Natsuki was a mess after Nao's assault and it was only because of Shizuru's love that she was able to recover from this. But Shizuru took advantage of her weakened state to fulfill her own selfish desires. The reason I didn't vote for Natsuki x Shizuru is because I remember Mai Hime. If Mai Otome was the only series, Natsuki and Shizuru are easily the right vote for this thread. I like Shizuru, I really do. Her problem in Otome is that she flaunts her sensuality too much. She fakes kissing Arika, she blows into her ear, she embraces her. It's definitely likely that she has done similar things to other students from the school. No wonder Tomoe is so obsessed with her.

[philip72]

I'm really sorry, it's hard to display a tone of voice on a visual medium like a message board. In my head I was expounding on the subject but unfortunately it must have come across like I was chewing you out. I didn't mean to come across like that and I'm sorry. I guess I should have used smiley's or something, but they never seem appropriate when I'm bloviating.

I'm going to use a spoiler here because the rest of my comment has a slight ewww factor

Spoiler:

We don't actually know what Shizuru did to Natsuki aside from stealing a few kisses from her while she was sleeping, taking off her robe and lying down next to her.
That said I'm still inclined to agree with you and believe there was probably some inappropriate touching, which I didn't like either.

There are different levels of molestation to me and I can only relate to Natsuki's position if I switch the genders and roles to apply to me.
If a male friend of mine (who rescued me from death) was secretly in love with me, and kissed and fondled me while I was asleep; I would be angry and feel my trust had been betrayed.
However it would be a completely different thing than if he bent me over the kitchen table and forcibly sodomized me.
The first instance I could forgive and get over (although I wouldn't kiss him later like Natsuki did), the second instance might mean his death.

Natsuki obviously forgave Shizuru for possibly feeling her up, and in fact her love for Shizuru caused Duran to grow a hundredfold in size.
What Shizuru did was wrong but not as wrong as it could have been. It wasn't rape but it was a possible groping.

Again I'm only trying to expound here, I'm honestly not trying to be rude or offensive, honest.

[riznar]

No worries. My post was more of a "hey calm down" post rather than a "get off my back!" post anyway.

I agree that there are degrees of molestation, but they all fall pretty much in the BAD catagory. It was awfully big of Natsuki to forgive her, but she couldn't let Mai outdo her in altruism now could she?

Actually, I'm a big fan of the "I love you but you're a murderous lunatic so I'm going to kill you myself." plotline.

But I'd still rather see a healthy relationship, anime seems to be lacking in that department. Maybe that's why I like Kasimasi...

[philip72]

Originally Posted by riznar

But I'd still rather see a healthy relationship, anime seems to be lacking in that department. Maybe that's why I like Kasimasi...

LOL...Yeah we're watching anime. Love struck Shizuru in Mai HiME is probably as healthy as it gets, what with all the sister-con, loli-con and Otousama lustin' (Elis, Nina anyone).

[Kourin]

Originally Posted by Riznar

But seriously, Shizuru really creeped me out in HiME. She was sorta goofy up until the end, but the inappropriate touching while Natsuki slept destroyed anything I liked about her. I consider her Otome version infinately better.

Originally Posted by TheDisruptiveOne

She is much better in Otome. Her actions are hard to defend in Mai Hime. Natsuki was a loner in the series. She didn't really have any friends or anyone to seek comfort from. Shizuru became the most important person in her life. Natsuki was a mess after Nao's assault and it was only because of Shizuru's love that she was able to recover from this. But Shizuru took advantage of her weakened state to fulfill her own selfish desires. The reason I didn't vote for Natsuki x Shizuru is because I remember Mai Hime.

This had already been mentioned before with a variety of reasons but once again, it's too easy to simply blame Shizuru. To make a long story short, what SHizuru did was wrong but one must also take into account the situation, Shizuru's own feelings and Natsuki's part of the responsibility.

Besides, they knew each other for the past 3-4 years. This was the only time she messed up and allowed her 'selfish' desires to get the better of her. It's a big mistake but to have it determine her character and forgetting all the kindness and generosity she had showed Natsuki is a little too harsh. I know she's only a fictional character but how would you feel to have certain names/labels stuck with your forever for ONE mistake.

I'm not saying you have to sympathize with Shizuru or like her. If she creeped you out, she creeped you out but since that was what happened, we must take her side of the story into account as well just to be fair.

Spoiler for longer version:

(You've all probably read things similar to these reasons, blah blah, but just to show that I do have reasons for my stance on this subject)

Situation: Natsuki maybe injured and dealing with complicated feelings but so was Shizuru. She probably just wanted some comfort, to be close to Natsuki. Seeing her hurt and asleep is a huge temptation. I know one can't equate how much one gets for the love one puts in but Shizuru probably just thought to herself that she wanted a little something back to help her through this.

Having someone there to help you through makes a big difference. Throughout most of the festival, natsuki had the HiME group for support, Mai especially but Shizuru had nobody. It was just her (and her feelings for Natsuki) against the world, fighting all alone in the shadows.

Shizuru's own feelings: she had been suppressing these for a long long time. It was bound to explode at one point and things just snowballed out of control for her. Also, the MIP clause had her focus on Natsuki a lot more than she already did. Being under this sort of pressure really starts to distort the overall picture, twisting her feelings. It was probably the reason why she caved in. It wasn't under normal circumstances that Shizuru did it. She had caved under fear and pressure.

And about the part of Shizuru being the only one Natsuki trusts completely: let's not forget that that in itself is pressure. Shizuru took it upon herself to be the reliable, kind and helpful sempai Natsuki unknowingly wanted and needed. Her whole goal was to just protect Natsuki. It allowed her no room for mistakes and when one strives for perfection, along the way, one is bound to falter and when it does, the mistake just feels that much worst because she felt like she had failed Natsuki. Shizuru is in no way related to Natsuki. She's not obligated to do any of this except a commitment to a love that she knows will go unrequited. (that also makes her quite selfless at the same time)

Natsuki's part: Claiming ignorance really is a poor excuse especially over such a long period of time. And until Nao did her 'renounce the world' thing, Natsuki was oblivious to just how important Shizuru was to her as well as her significance. Sounds like someone has been taking Shizuru for granted.

I can't help but feel that Shizuru's crime gets reprimanded a lot more severely for its sexual nature. First, there was the killing which logically speaking is much worst. The other HiMEs at one point also betrayed another's trust and committed various crimes which is just as bad but not as focused upon. I guess it's society's structure in which we tend to sexualize and deviate certain subjects.

[TheDisruptiveOne]

I hope my post didn't give that impression. I am a Shizuru fan. Nao is my favorite character, but Shizuru is by far the most appealing. She symbolizes pretty much what the whole goal behind Otome is. Beautiful, charming, sophisticated, intelligent, charismatic, and I can go on and on. Pretty much any positive adjective that can be used to positively describe a person can be found in Mai Otome's version of Shizuru. All I intended with my post was to say that I didn't like her as much in Mai Hime as I do now. And in doing that I offered a little blurb as to why.

[Shigan]

Lol, here goes the Shizuru discussion again. I guess I'll add my bit to follow up Kourin's excellent points:

Spoiler:

I think to many people, like Natsuki, are taking Hime Shizuru's calm perfection for granted. Perfection is something an individual strives for, it's not a part of a personality. Despite everything we see in the anime, Shizuru is also like the rest of the Himes a very young woman, and desperately in love. But on the contrary to the rest of the Himes, I got the impression of that she was the only one of them who -really- understood what the whole Hime festival would lead to from the very beginning.

Always keeping a distance, worrying about Natsuki from a far, never taking action until the most crucial time and then efficiently doing whats necessary. Shizuru if anyone of the Himes knew what the price would be to pay if she got to obviously involved, but at the same time she was always observant enough to keep up with what was going on between the rest of the Himes. And as the whole thing spinned out of control, I think she is allowed to feel a bit emotional turbulent when the lives of both Natsuki and herself is slowly drawing to a close, since even in the very best of cases, only one of them will survive. The Hime festival only has one winner.

I don't know about you guys, but in the face of a impending deaththreat, I would feel very snugglish in the presence of the one I love.

[Kourin]

Originally Posted by TheDisruptiveOne

I hope my post didn't give that impression. I am a Shizuru fan. Nao is my favorite character, but Shizuru is by far the most appealing. She symbolizes pretty much what the whole goal behind Otome is. Beautiful, charming, sophisticated, intelligent, charismatic, and I can go on and on. Pretty much any positive adjective that can be used to positively describe a person can be found in Mai Otome's version of Shizuru. All I intended with my post was to say that I didn't like her as much in Mai Hime as I do now. And in doing that I offered a little blurb as to why.

It was a more general argument about not letting Shizuru's berserk state overshadow the whole of her character. but there were certain parts that were aimed to defend the following two things you've mentioned

Her actions are hard to defend in Mai Hime.

and

Shizuru took advantage of her(Natsuki's) weakened state to fulfill her own selfish desires

both points which Shigan and I have tried to prove to the contrary... or at least gave some reasons to explain Shizuru's seemingly 'selfish' and unforgivable actions. One can't judge a person by their actions alone. Intentions and circumstances come into play. (and 'impeding deaththreat' is very true. Shizuru was put in the rare, double KO, situation. either way, she can't win)

Whether Otome Shizuru is better than MH Shizuru or not, that's purely one's opinion but do give MH Shizuru a more balanced evaluation. The two of them were placed in two very different places. Also, MO Shizuru is significantly older and logically, more mature.

and to me (even though i went into total denial when the molest/slaughter happened... now I'm over it), the mistakes that MH Shizuru made did make her a more interesting character. otherwise, she really will be little miss perfect. and that's not true... MH Shizuru, as Shigan mentioned, is just a little girl herself...a femme fatale in her own right but just a girl.

[Pazu]

Originally Posted by philip72

2) I hope not, but this series has really started to disappoint, so it wouldn't shock me if they had her do something sleazy and out of character.
In HiME she was a Natsukmo-sexual, but I think she's been downgraded to lesbian flirt for Otome.

Spoiler for Shizuru:

I have the feeling that MO Shizuru is made to be wiser than most characters and even viewers
She has no choice with Tomoe: probably she fully knows how crazy this girl is (think about ep.22). So being powerless she will not expose Natsuki's safety, or her own.
Also her attention to Arika could be because of practical reasons: she knew that in future conflict they would need Arika at their side. Some kindness helps sometimes with this kind of people like Arika.. And well, to this point of story she was right. Desperate Natsuki is looking for any help, also Arika/Mashiro's, meanwhile technically they became her enemies (with Mashiro's promise to Midori). Shizuru's foresaw this. Or she's read the script.

But well, lots of people want to see all her actions as flirting only
Somehow I don't mind much At least she has SS for the same sex attraction factor.

[Shigan]

Her actions are hard to defend in Mai Hime.

Why even try to defend them at all? Neither me nor Kourin are really trying to make Hime Shizuru's actions justifiable, what she did was a horrible but -understandable- mistake. Being in love -is- a very morally distracting thing.

In that case, I would say that Natsuki is a lot more hard to forgive for her total neglect and inattention to her only and best friend. Shizuru did stand her ground and fullfilled her role as Natsuki's constant support until the very end when the pressure broke her, Natsuki on the other hand in her devotion for revenge never gave the possibility of Shizuru being troubled a second thought. Someone has been taking someone for granted here.

So, prolonged neglect is less cruel due to that it is not sexual in nature?

And I've been having some problem with all this "Shizuru broke Natsuki's trust" argument. What trust? They had a "please don't molest me in my sleep" pact going? Falling in love with your best friend and acting upon it selfishly comes as a surprise and immoral action yes, but it hardly breaches the trust of a close friendship. Not because of that it doesnt breaches anything, but rather that the trust of friendships doesn't include a "please no rape" paragraph. Shizuru's actions are not justifiable, but it hardly broke anything save Natsuki's naive attentiveness towards her friend - since the trust of a close friendship and the trust between lovers operates on two entirely different planes.

And yes, I said this, Kourin emphasized it and I will say it again and again and again, despite all the perfect-miss-goody-shoes-ojousama facade, Shizuru is a 18 years old young woman, a girl.

Young and in love seldom makes for a rational and logical mind, not to mention in the face of a battle royale festival - and I doubt anyone can disagree with this, that Shizuru's feelings for Natsuki runs pretty damn deep.

[niwasatou]

That discussion comes up again and again, huh?
Some time ago, I read an "Essay: Fujino Shizuru [Mai HiME]" by greywing.
Just to mention this.. it may be interesting to read (?).

[philip72]

Originally Posted by niwasatou

That discussion comes up again and again, huh?
Some time ago, I read an "Essay: Fujino Shizuru [Mai HiME]" by greywing.
Just to mention this.. it may be interesting to read (?).

Thanks, that was interesting and very well thought out. It made some salient points that had never occurred to me.

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Shigan

Why even try to defend them at all? Neither me nor Kourin are really trying to make Hime Shizuru's actions justifiable, what she did was a horrible but -understandable- mistake. Being in love -is- a very morally distracting thing.

I think Greywing pretty much sums it up nicely adding that we really don't know what happened between them at the hideaway. Your comment sounds too concrete....unless you were referring to her other acts such as the killing spree? In this case, everyone in Mai Hime should be convicted.LOL

Greywing described it brilliantly"
"However, what honestly at first led me to believe that the “Shizuru gets into bed with Natsuki” scene didn’t happen was Shizuru’s attempt to steal a kiss from a sleeping Natsuki. She gazes longingly at Natsuki, hesitates, seems to war within herself, and then goes in for the attempt, tenderly caressing Natsuki’s cheek as she turns her head. If Shizuru had previously had her way with Natsuki, why hesitate so much now? (You could argue that there’s a much greater risk of Natsuki waking up, even if Natsuki is the “I sleep through everything” queen, but I would then ask you why Shizuru would want to risk hurting Natsuki any more than she might have been hurt? Hurting Natsuki, as strange as this may seem later, is the last thing I could see Shizuru capable of consciously doing.) Shizuru has always seemed to me very conscious of the line between fully giving into her desire and filching little moments of being intimate with Natsuki (like running Natsuki’s hair through her fingers in Episode 19). Maybe it’s the fan mentality in me, but I can’t see Shizuru at this point crossing that line. Saying that, I think her later resolution to make Natsuki hers, even her “But Natsuki, I do love you. So even if you hate me, I’ll make you mine,” further attests to Shizuru having never actually gotten Natsuki. It seems to ring (horrifically) more of, “I really want you” rather than “I want to have you again” as if during all of this, Shizuru had been denying herself all the way up to that point.

I hope that made sense, but as masochistic as Shizuru’s love is, it isn’t sadistic when it comes to Natsuki. Hurting Natsuki would horrify Shizuru (if she were cognizant of it) just as much as it would horrify Natsuki."

Greywing also provided another good point, mentioning how *sticky* this topic is and "There's really no way one side or the other can prove it definitely happened or didn't, but I have seen very intelligent arguments from the pro-Shizuru crowd."

He offered some good reading material there and it was really indepth. But I certainly agree though....nothing here is concrete.

And yes, I said this, Kourin emphasized it and I will say it again and again and again, despite all the perfect-miss-goody-shoes-ojousama facade, Shizuru is a 18 years old young woman, a girl.

Hmm? The website says she's 17.
http://www.sunrise-inc.co.jp/my-hime...a/shizuru.html

--Lone Wolf