[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by zorahk

BTW, for the love of god people, it's Hachijou Touya, not anything else that I've seen in this thread. The reading is confirmed in furigana next to the name.

Yeah we know, I just refer to her as Chijou because saying it comes off my tounge more naturally than Hachijou.

Spoiler for Ep6 Spoilers:

And of course the distinction made between her human form and her suggested Featherine/Featherline form.

Also summaries a little while later. I accidentally deleted the notes I made after the last batch so I'm playing through the sections again.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by zorahk

BTW, for the love of god people, it's Hachijou Touya, not anything else that I've seen in this thread. The reading is confirmed in furigana next to the name.

You mean "Hiragana."

And the Hiragana is "はちじょう とおや" which appears, when romanized, literally becomes "Hachijou Tooya":

は = ha
ち = chi
じょ = jo
う = u

と = to
お = o
や = ya

But that's just the literal, character-for-character meaning.

If what irks you is the spelling of the name "Tooya" (とおや) rather than "Touya" (とうや), note that when a character ending with the vowel "o" such as "to" (と) is followed by the character simply meaning "o" (お), it is commonly romanized as "oh". So in that sense, "とお" becomes "toh", making "はちじょう とおや" becomes "Hachijou Tohya".

We could just call her "Hachijo Toya", but don't feel the need to absolutely do so.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Alcindor

i miss the old battler from ep1-4
From what am hearing he is turning into a douche , sigh cant control who u fall in love with i guess :/

He's not really a douche. Just really depressed. Good portion of the game he's upset about Beatrice dying still and the scene where he just plays pretend is heart-wrenching.

But I promise you he does get better. Even though he is sorta a jerk to the new Beato at first he doesn't stay a douche the entire game. I wish he wouldn't be so incompetent, since ultimately that's why Erika was able to make a logical error on the gameboard, but whatever.

[Tjfarmer]

I'm pretty sure the Hiragana next to kanji (above/to the side usually, but in this case to the side in parentheses) are called Furigana. So zorahk was correct when s/he called them Furigana.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

I'm pretty sure the Hiragana next to kanji (above/to the side usually, but in this case to the side in parentheses) are called Furigana. So zorahk was correct when s/he called them Furigana.

Very well, it is furigana written in hiragana.

[MeoTwister5]

From where I am right now, Battler comes off more of a pretend Magnificent Semi-Bastard of sorts.

Oh and here are the first summaries for today.

Spoiler for Ep6 Summaries:

Rokkenjima 1986
- Weather is described as like a typhoon. Boats don't go out and lightning strikes with loud thunder. A person wearing a life jacket washes up on the island, laughing and giggling. Person issues a challenge to amuse Battler. Obviously this is Erika.
- Erika's arrival and introduction the same as Ep5. Everyone was enjoying coffee after dinner. Erika talks about mysteries, detectives, locked rooms, tricks etc.
- She refers to herself as a detective and how the age of mystery (?) has only been around for 100 years (I supposes she means it as a literary genre). Battler likens to understanding them to Romeo And Juliet. She asks what he reads. Battler is apparently an avid reader (?).
- Erika seems to brag a lot, and now the other cousins chime in to salvage the topic and atmosphere. Maria takes out a quiz and puzzle book.
- Erika seems to be able to swiftly answer them, something about 107 and 108 teams. Maria is amazed but Rosa reminds her to call Erika onee-chan. Everyone else gets in on the solving. Apparently she can answer them faster than the rest of the family. Kyrie herself asks if she can get serious.
- They and up discussing the number of cuts to a piece of cheese to get 8 pieces. You naturally need only 4 straight cuts. They discuss something about Battler not understanding the nature of the question (?). Something about imagining the object in 3D, which alters the nature of cutting(?).
- The question becomes how to cut the cheese into 8 in less than 4 cuts. In the case of a cake you would have to cut it properly for everyone. For cheese you can explore other ways to do it.
- In my case, if you cut it horizontally once then twice vertically, you can achieve 8 pieces in 3 slices.
- George and Jessica eventually suggest what I had thought of, and say you can only see this if you think in 3D rather than 2D. Battler comes off as rather slow compared to everyone else. Erika seems to suggest you only need 1 cut?
- Side scene. Ange thinks Battler is misunderstanding. You should only be able to do it with 3 and no less. Apparently Battler is suggesting something other than a knife (?). Featherine says you have to use a knife to cut with a knife, and it only cuts with a straight line. She reveals however that it is never stated what the shape of the cheese is.
- Erika suggests a cheese wheel, and that the shape wasn't really revealed. She suggests checking Maria's book. She says it's the shape of the cylinder (cheese wheel again). The 3 cut way is possible by the method stated above.
- The point here, again, is that without knowing the nature of the object a lot of different solutions are plausible. Erika seems to insist one slice can do it and Jessica wants to know. Erika suggests a paper napkin to test.
- Discussion shifts to how many times you can fold the napkin. Erika says 6 times. It is suggested that by folding the cheese/napkin 6 times on itself and by slicing once down the center axis, you can get 8 pieces in one slice.
- Everyone is shocked at Erika's solution. She goes off tangent about the witch etc. which prompts Battlerto ask, but she evades and giggles.
- The next problem is 3 glasses and 6 coins, and 1 coin in one glass, 2 in another and 3 in another. The question she says becomes what if there are only 5 coins (?).
- It would seem everyone's starting to get annoyed with her. George starts discussing chopsticks which prompts a sudden enthusiastic topic shift from Erika, saying it's a nobel utensil compared to barbarious knives and forks. Everyone shifts topics.
- It apparently becomes a chopsticks competition of sorts. Jessica is losing to Erika?

- Scene switch to that locked room near the start. The person is hearing laughter from the direction of the dining room. The person pines for father and mother and still can't get the door open.
- Person closes the door again. The person is desperate as the room is again filled by eerie sounds of wind and rain. He tries to find another way out.
- Checking the closet reveals nothing. Checking the bathroom and the faucets show nothing. The windows are clamped shut by iron. The person knows that it is only through either the window or door can he get out.
- He smashes a chair on the window and breaks the glass. He then learns there's a screen in place and tries to break the wooden frame. He gets cut by the glass and bleeds. He begins to freak out again. Someone is apparently touching the person's hand (?). He sees a figure in the darkness.
- He sees a grinning person touching his hand. The figure bites off a finger.

Rokkenjima 1986
- In the hallway Erika and George seem to hear something. Jessica thinks it might be the wind. Shannon says there is an unused guestroom down the corridor. They say that they'll be using the guesthouse, even Jessica. She asks if Shannon and Kanon will also be staying there. They say all the younger ones will be staying in the guesthouse.
- Erika says since it is separate she can't witness events in the main house. Erika seems to eerily suggest that the number of people will be reduced in the morning (?).
- The children are sent to the guesthouse as the parents start their conference. Maria doesn't seem to want to go but Jessica says they have to.
- More eery laughter from Erika (does she know something is going to happen?). She asks about the portrait. Shannon and the rest explain the Beatrice story, and how she supposedly strolls through the house at night.
- Creepy Maria laugh and usual idolatry for Beatrice. Repeat of the rumors, the injured servant, etc. They think the placing of the portrait increases the story's grip on the people, also magnified by the bizarre sounds made by the weather.
- Erika ever the skeptic laughs, which irritates Maria. She insists there is a Beato and she will curse Erika. Battler jokes to Erika as a detective, and how could a detective be killed off at the beginning. Erika says that would be a problem, but the Knox rules says the detective cannot be killed.
- Maria says there is an amulet to prevent her from being cursed and shows the scorpion amulet. They also talk about how the golden butterflies dislike spider webs. Erika asks to hear more in the guesthouse.
- When they leave, the figure of Beato appears amidst golden butterflies. She looks at the portrait and ponders the difference. More existential angst and questioning. She calls herself Beato's egg, and asks what the true Beato had that she did not.
- She touches the portrait and feels it soft and enterable. She thinks this may be the path to figuring out who she is. She enters the portrait.

[Tyabann]

Question:

Spoiler for Ep6:

Is Hachijou writing the meta-world as well as the gameboard?

Or is she only responsible for what the "pieces" see?

Thanks.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Question:

Spoiler for Ep6:

Is Hachijou writing the meta-world as well as the gameboard?

Or is she only responsible for what the "pieces" see?

Thanks.

She was responsible for giving realworld-Ange the information of EP3-EP6. Featherine was responsible for writing down what she watched and delivered the information to whoever she deemed suitable (e.g. moe-Beatrice, Bern, meta-Ange)

We could expect realworld-Ange to have once again a "new" journey to Rokkenjima in EP7.

[Tyabann]

That really doesn't answer my question.

Magic doesn't exist. Therefore, everything we've read up until now has been the invention of a newly introduced, barely hinted-at character. I am, I hope understandably, a bit upset about this.

I am trying to find out if the Meta-World, where most of the plot happens anyway, is at least free from taint like that.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That really doesn't answer my question.

Magic doesn't exist. Therefore, everything we've read up until now has been the invention of a newly introduced, barely hinted-at character. I am, I hope understandably, a bit upset about this.

I am trying to find out if the Meta-World, where most of the plot happens anyway, is at least free from taint like that.

I personally don't believe she controls that too. She's linked to the metaworld, yes, but she's not a higher power that controls it too. As in the post I deleted:

Spoiler for Ep6 spoiler:

As author of the story she's on a level equal to that of the metaworld we've seen. She writes the gameboard, while as GM Battler shows the players of the game his interpretation of events. In that sense you could say that even "we" as viewers are on the same level as the metaworld.

Think about it this way, using a kindergarden analogy:

Hachijou: Storybook Author.
Battler: The teacher reading the story.
MetaWorld, Us: The people listening to the story.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I personally don't believe she controls that too.

I've heard something to the effect that her stories contain the meta-world as well...?

Which means that Umineko is basically meta-fanfiction.

I'm really not happy about that.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Hachijou: Storybook Author.
Battler: The teacher reading the story.
MetaWorld, Us: The people listening to the story.

So exactly how is that Knox rule about evidence being presented beforehand supposed to work with this?

...I'm kind of wondering if this was even planned or not. Because, frankly, it's stupid.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Ep6 spoiler:

As author of the story she's on a level equal to that of the metaworld we've seen. She writes the gameboard, while as GM Battler shows the players of the game his interpretation of events.

Spoiler:

Something that should be mentioned, I believe, is that she's not the original author of the story. The original author is "Beatrice" who wrote the letters in the bottles, which Hachijō read (reaching the truth, apparently), and decided to continue the story based on the truth whilst changing things like the fantasy elements and other things.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I've heard something to the effect that her stories contain the meta-world as well...?

Which means that Umineko is basically meta-fanfiction.

I'm really not happy about that.

As I said, from where I am in the story she does not control the metaworld because there have been scenes of both Featherine's domain and the metaworld linkign with each other on an equal level. Everything she and Ange have discussed so far pertain as per the events of Rokkenjima only to the gameboard as interpreters, at the same time they can interact the metaworld as fellow "readers" but not as controllers.

Read the analogy I editted in my previous post.

So exactly how is that Knox rule about evidence being presented beforehand supposed to work with this?

...I'm kind of wondering if this was even planned or not. Because, frankly, it's stupid.

It doesn't violate anything. Even with Hachijou as the author she does not control how people interpret anything in the story including evidence. Evidence is there, but like a real world trial it is subject to evidence. The evidence is there beforehand as part of the story but subjected to how the players view them.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I've heard something to the effect that her stories contain the meta-world as well...?

Which means that Umineko is basically meta-fanfiction.

I'm really not happy about that.

Seriously, if you judge any story that's even remotely linked to the mystery genre by using spoilers, your opinion has no value. You do not understand EP6 yet. Don't judge it until you do.

Also, if you have a pre-set checklist of "things that will ruin the story if they are included in any form", Ryuukishi will always disappoint you. From the very beginning, his specialty has always been taking the tired cliches and turning them on their heads... Unless you pay attention to how he does things instead of just what he does, you'll miss out on most of the story. And you need to read the whole thing to do that.

If you can't do that, this isn't the genre for you.

[passuki]

Can everyone tell me please.. T T
How're Moebeato and SuitBeato in the Ep6 ending?..

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Seriously, if you judge any story that's even remotely linked to the mystery genre by using spoilers, your opinion has no value. You do not understand EP6 yet. Don't judge it until you do.

Also, if you have a pre-set checklist of "things that will ruin the story if they are included in any form", Ryuukishi will always disappoint you. From the very beginning, his specialty has always been taking the tired cliches and turning them on their heads... Unless you pay attention to how he does things instead of just what he does, you'll miss out on most of the story. And you need to read the whole thing to do that.

If you can't do that, this isn't the genre for you.

...You know, I just... Sigh.

I don't really know what to say to this statement. I feel like an idiot. (Probably because I am.)

I just feel really, really betrayed, what with the spoilers I've read so far on Hachijou. The story just feels so... empty, now.

I'm sorry for wasting all of your time.

[MeoTwister5]

The problem is that you're reading spoilers in a vacuum of knowledge. Before I started playing, when I read the info on Featherine I was like "WTF tacked on creator world undermines the metaworld etc blah blah" and wondered that if having yet another realm completely destroys the credibility of the metaworld.

Now that I'm running through it, I'm convinced that Featherine exists on an equal level and not above the metaworld. Hell I still believe that the Featherine+Ange is purely symbolic representation of the R07+reader interaction and not even part of the story itself.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

The problem is that you're reading spoilers in a vacuum of knowledge.

Yeah, I think that'd be it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

...You know, I just... Sigh.

I don't really know what to say to this statement. I feel like an idiot. (Probably because I am.)

I just feel really, really betrayed, what with the spoilers I've read so far on Hachijou. The story just feels so... empty, now.

If so, then I'm guessing you haven't heard about the Ura Tea party. I can say some things fairly confidently. Hachijou is more than just a human writing a story. There is another layer of backstory that even she can't control. Even if we solve all the puzzles of the game boards and the game itself, there is still the question of how this whole thing started in the first place. Until we know that, it's impossible to be too certain about anything.

There's no reason why the game itself should fall under Knox's rules. Ryuukishi has never guaranteed that we should be able to figure that out, and EP6 introduces the fact that Lambda and Bern do have real backstories.

In the end, it still comes down to whether you have faith in Ryuukishi. I think he's had a pretty incredible record so far, so I'm willing to bet that he'll be able to end this thing successfully. However, if you go into this thinking that Ryuukishi is going to screw everything up, you'll probably keep thinking that way as you read it.
There's a reason why Ryuukishi urges his readers on so often even inside the games. If he does succeed with finishing the Umineko story, he will have created one of the largest puzzles I've ever seen. But it's complicated enough that most people will probably miss out on a large part of it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In the end, it still comes down to whether you have faith in Ryuukishi. I think he's had a pretty incredible record so far, so I'm willing to bet that he'll be able to end this thing successfully. However, if you go into this thinking that Ryuukishi is going to screw everything up, you'll probably keep thinking that way as you read it.

I do understand, but... I can't help but worry... Ryukishi's writing is just so off-the-wall, overcomplicated, and full of insane plot devices, that I just keep thinking it's all going to collapse in a massive, convoluted mess despite knowing that positive attitudes make things more enjoyable.

Although, I admit that if he manages to pull it all off and end in an emotionally satisfying and complete way, he's just about the best author ever, just for doing so.