Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Well if they were that dangerous Kayneth clearly wasn't worried about the repercussions. Heck they didn't bother sending anyone after Caster and his master for disregarding the Holy Grail war and instead sent the servants after them.

The fact that Archer and Berserker didn't bother to abide by them says a lot about how much authority the Priest has in the war.

Again, I would think that the priest would at least have some bodyguards around to help "enforce" the rules.

[Guardian Enzo]

It frightens me how many seem to view Kiritsugu's moral relativism as acceptable. Once you start that train down that track, the brakes will never hold.

[Yuna Amakura]

^I find Kiritsugu's "moral" more suitable for his context. It's different from a real war, something which F/Z does not necessarily show.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Well if they were that dangerous Kayneth clearly wasn't worried about the repercussions. Heck they didn't bother sending anyone after Caster and his master for disregarding the Holy Grail war and instead sent the servants after them.

The fact that Archer and Berserker didn't bother to abide by them says a lot about how much authority the Priest has in the war.

Again, I would think that the priest would at least have some bodyguards around to help "enforce" the rules.

the reason why there wasn't any sent out after Caster/Ryu is because this was a private between mages. The Church role is only as a referee. As for Archer (Gil) and Berserker, they are Heroic Spirits. The Church has no authority over. Kayneth probably was betting on winning it and all using the Miracle to protect him self.

the reason why the priest didn't bother with enforcers becuase there is a chance the Church could people like Ciel after you, just google Type-moon Burial Agency.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It frightens me how many seem to view Kiritsugu's moral relativism as acceptable. Once you start that train down that track, the brakes will never hold.

I actually agree with a lot of Kiritsugu says. Now I don't agree with his "end justifies the means" stance but I do agree with him that there is no chivalry in war time.

Now of course I sympathize with Saber & Lancer and even like them much more as characters than Kiritsugu but in the end I think Kiritsugu is correct. There is nothing noble about war. There is no such thing as a gentleman's war.

Do I think Kiritsugu has taken things too far, well perhaps but he unlike everyone else understands what he is fighting for and exactly what that means.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Yuna Amakura

^I find Kiritsugu's "moral" more suitable for his context. It's different from a real war, something which F/Z does not necessarily show.

Suitable, yes. Justified? Probably not. The story has made an effort in painting Kiritsugu's methods in a negative light starting from the first episode and that hasn't really changed with this latest one.

[Phoenix6000]

Chivalry may be dead, but the misfortunes of Luck E shall live forever. Not going to lie, that sendoff was intense.

Sayonara, Lancer.

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I find it funny that psychopaths like Caster and his master felt fullfillment with their deaths while in this episode it was nothing but anger and suffering. Damn was Lancer pissed.

My thoughts exactly. Two murders had a moment of revelation and were allowed to go out on a high note, whereas Team Lancer endured agony at every turn. I'm still trying to decide who among them got the worst of it.

Safe to say the lesson to take from this episode is that life sucks and then you die. =/

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It frightens me how many seem to view Kiritsugu's moral relativism as acceptable. Once you start that train down that track, the brakes will never hold.

All's fair in love and war.

[ChronoReverse]

He already knows it's wrong anyway. That much is clear. But he intends to go ahead anyway and use the wish from the Grail to ensure that he's the last hypocrite.

[zero7090]

my friend says:

Fate/zero (フェイト/ゼロ, Feito/zero) is a light novel by Gen Urobuchi

Puella Magi Madoka Magica (魔法少女まどか☆マギカ Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika?, "Magical Girl Madoka of the Magus") is a Japanese anime television series produced by Shaft and Aniplex. The series is directed by Akiyuki Shinbo and written by Gen Urobuchi

Kayneth should know better seeing a contract from someone who wrote madoka.

btw: how the h someone like Kiritsu end up having the "people die when they are killed" son

[KyriaL]

Originally Posted by zero7090

my friend says:




Kayneth should know better seeing a contract from someone who wrote madoka.

btw: how the h someone like Kiritsu end up having the "people die when they are killed" son

Well seeing as the son was adopted, he did not inherit his genes, but merely his ideals.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by zero7090

my friend says:




Kayneth should know better seeing a contract from someone who wrote madoka.

btw: how the h someone like Kiritsu end up having the "people die when they are killed" son

since this involve spoilers, ask in the fsn general thread.

[Linkark07]

Originally Posted by Phoenix6000

My thoughts exactly. Two murders had a moment of revelation and were allowed to go out on a high note, whereas Team Lancer endured agony at every turn. I'm still trying to decide who among them got the worst of it.

For me it is Lancer. Poor guy was betrayed once when he was alive and betrayed again to the guy who he pledged loyalty. No wonder he was extremely furious at his last moments although I don't like why he took it against Saber too, she was shocked by what happened. Lance should know better than anyone that Saber would condemn something like that.

Kayneth suffered a lot before dying because his circuits were fried but his final moments were the most painful seeing his wife dead.

And Sola, well, she lost consciousness as soon as Maiya cut her hand so I doubt she regained it after that.

So overall, Lancer suffered most followed by Kayneth and then Sola.

[Yuna Amakura]

Originally Posted by Archer

Suitable, yes. Justified? Probably not. The story has made an effort in painting Kiritsugu's methods in a negative light starting from the first episode and that hasn't really changed with this latest one.

Dude, I never said it was justified lol I just mentioned it seemed more suitable with his context, nothing more, nothing less.

For me, both views are exaggerated even though Kiritsugu's seem to be a little bit more plausible than Saber's.

[jeroz]

If you think about it, none of the Assassins had a proper send off either. They were pretty much ordered to go to a suicide mission against the army of IH and the GoB.

It would be very interesting to see who actually manage to obtain the GE by the end of the story. I foresee hell and torture for every single one of them however, given the nature of the god in that world.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Linkark07

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that if Gil was even serious at the start of the war he could have won immediately.

Sadly Gilgamesh will never change so his arrogance will always get the best of him.

There are times he is serious. It's when he respects an enemy.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the reason why the priest didn't bother with enforcers becuase there is a chance the Church could people like Ciel after you, just google Type-moon Burial Agency.

Kayneth was stupid considering the man's own son who is casually in the same town (and maybe the same Church, since he's supposedly hidden there) is an Executor who hunts down magi. What is he thinking? If Kotomine hadn't been keeping an eye on Tokiomi and Kariya, he would have been killed.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It frightens me how many seem to view Kiritsugu's moral relativism as acceptable. Once you start that train down that track, the brakes will never hold.

It's a war and there's no place for chivalry in it. If killing others is a sin, then why trying to find honor in it? If killing in the most cruel ways can end the war earlier and saving more people from dying, why shouldn't he do it? As Kiritsugu said, eliminating both master and servant at the same time would get rid of a possibility that one of them could get a new master/servant. It's just the most efficient method that would end the war and prevent collateral damage, which is already so high.

I might be the opposite of him, or pity him but I can't say I don't agree with him. He's truly a "Seigi no Mikata".

[FlareKnight]

Well...damn. I knew Lancer was just too good a guy for all this. Even at the very end he gets screwed over because of it. Just kept being betrayed despite not really asking for much. Just seeking an honorable fight with a lord that would respect him. But in the end he couldn't even get that. Once again his fight with Saber gets interrupted and he goes out in a bad state. I can't blame him for even getting angry at Saber since after all the betrayal it gets hard to believe in anything.

Bad day for Saber too of course. In the end never got to finish that fight and sees a good man go down in rage. If things weren't good with her and Kiritsugu before they are going to get downright ugly now. Probably good insights on both sides, but this just isn't good. Glad that Kiritsugu has all those command spells since frankly to do anything he's probably going to need them.

I didn't really feel bad for Kayneth since he was a jerk. Though he got taken down in such an ugly fashion.

Well this episode at least proved how frightening Kiritsugu's effect on the battlefield can be, when he isn't dealing with the one person in this war that does scare him. Though really starting to think he should have just left the summoning choice to the Grail, since this combo with Saber is getting tense.

Just a rough episode.

[Vicious108]

Yeah, that was probably the best episode thus far. A few awkward transitions (which will probably be patched up for the BD version) and budget saving techniques with needlessly far away camera angles aside, it was one hell of a powerful ride. Fiction doesn't get much more tense or intense than this.

From last week's preview, I was wondering who would play the role of the villain who would inevitably shatter Saber and Lancer's dream of finally having their honorable and chivalrous showdown. I thought it might be Kiritsugu, but wasn't sure since I felt it might make him too unlikeable a protagonist for certain audiences, but in retrospect it was foolish to expect Urobuchi to be concerned with such a thing. And thus, Kiritsugu masterfully played the part, once again confirming his status as one of the most complex and fascinating anti-heroes I've seen.

His philosophical debate with Saber was brilliantly written, as usual, and did wonders for both their characters. I'd already noticed Kiritsugu's disdain for the chivalrous types when he proposed having Lancer sacrifice his spear for Saber's sake in the previous episode, but I didn't expect it to run quite this deep. His backstory will surely be an interesting one to behold. What could have made him this way indeed, Saber.

As for the Lancer team... Yeah, not much that can be said besides sucks to be them. I actually thought I'd enjoy Sola's eventual demise due to how much I despised her back in episode 9, but that was just overkill right there. Damn, Maiya, you're turning out to be way more useful than I'd ever thought a hench(wo)man would be. Now whereas Sola didn't really gain any character points here, I was quite pleased with the conclusion of Kayneth's downward spiral. He was a sorry sight to behold throughout the entire episode, from killing the man responsible for supervising the magus contest whose prestige and sanctity he used to champion so much, and doing it with the firearms he cursed Kiritsugu for using at that, to unsightly attempting to humiliate the one ally he had left in order to feel better about his shortcomings as both a magus and a man. However, due to Urobuchi's amazing talent, we can still feel sorry even for a miserable douchebag like that when, at the end of it all, he gives up what little was left of his pride and chance at recovering his glory for the sake of love (and it bites him in the ass, no less).

Last but not least, Lancer may be gone, but his death scene will most certainly not be forgotten, in no small part thanks to Hikaru Midorikawa's phenomenal performance. He's quite the veteran with a remarkable career, but I daresay that right there was his best performance ever. Completely sold Lancer's utter rage and despair at the end of it all. A tragic character if I've ever seen one. When I heard him going "Ah..." at the relief an honorable duel with Saber provided him amidst all of his suffering, I felt terrible for him, already sensing that even that small respite would be cruelly stolen from him.

Heh, I wonder if the folks who complained about nobody dying in the first season will be pleased now? Either way, with the demise of the Lancer team this fittingly leaves the three kings to fight it out alongside the wildcard that is Berserker. And from the preview, it seems the next episode will be a more Kirei-centric one, which is also very fitting, so that his growth can match up to all the development Kiritsugu got in this episode. I must say, the plotting and pacing for this series has been masterfully planned and executed, and I'm particularly looking forward to next week's chapter, given the episode title.

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I find it funny that psychopaths like Caster and his master felt fullfillment with their deaths while in this episode it was nothing but anger and suffering. Damn was Lancer pissed.

Indeed. It's rather telling of Urobuchi's tendencies as an author when the two most depraved and inhuman characters depart with smiles and tears of joy on their faces, whereas what was probably the most virtuous and good-natured character in the show had his dream trampled on and was reduced to a miserable pile of rage and resentment. Goes to show that in war bad things happen to good people more often than they do for bad people.

The show's definitely living up to its reputation and I certainly look forward to the following stages of this banquet of despair with both dread and excitement.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Alaya

It's a war and there's no place for chivalry in it. If killing others is a sin, then why trying to find honor in it? If killing in the most cruel ways can end the war earlier and saving more people from dying, why shouldn't he do it? As Kiritsugu said, eliminating both master and servant at the same time would get rid of a possibility that one of them could get a new master/servant. It's just the most efficient method that would end the war and prevent collateral damage, which is already so high.

I might be the opposite of him, or pity him but I can't say I don't agree with him. He's truly a "Seigi no Mikata".

Completely agree with this. THen again, I consider myself an extremist as well lol.

[Guardian Enzo]

"All's fair is love and war" and "The end justifies the means" is merely the most popular justification for atrocities in human history. Saber's POV is definitely naive and Kiritsugu is right that many people have died for that, too. But Kiritsugu's path is evil and no good can come of it - history should at least tell us that much. Moral relativism simply doesn't work.

Urobuchi is obviously fascinated with these Kyuubey, Kiritsugu characters - beings who do horrible things under the absolute assumption that they know best and no sacrifice is too great to execute their vision. It's typical Urobuchi (and highly unusual generally) to ask terribly hard questions and offer no answers, and it's not as if saying Kiritsugu is wrong makes any of the other heroes or masters right - that's why history has a lot more examples of oppression and slaughter than it does of enlightened and just societies.