2011-12-28, 10:52 | Link #26641 | |||||||||||||
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Or she tossed in a reasoning instead of waiting for Battler to make one. It doesn't make much sense to me. Quote:
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And anyway I'm not following you. So Beatrice doesn't want him to quit, which according to you would cause her to win, but wants to place him in a trap so she'll win anyway? Quote:
So maybe Virgilia's involvement had been planned from the beginning but Beato wasn't aware from the beginning of the sun/wind strategy. And again: if you say she was winning by having him forfeit the game why to make him play so she could trick him and win? Quote:
- because she used the duct tape to fix the chain also and then had set it shut, a thing that Battler didn't know - because she killed Kirye, Eva, Maria, Natsuhi and Rosa, another thing Battler didn't know Now, maybe Battler could have been a poor writer and forget about the chain... (Daniel Defoe forgot his main character was naked and had him put things in his pokets... -_-) but to forget he had Erika killing the characters who were supposed to resque him... well, this would make him a REALLY pitiful writer, not even worth of writing an elementary school composition. Quote:
Also to fix the logic error Beato had to rewrite the scene with Kanon going to save Battler... which basically mean she changed the move Battler wanted to make. Plus, if the GM was in charge to merely tell the story he wouldn't be really making moves, just reading a story he wrote. Quote:
If me and Ellery Queen were in the Umineko world and I were to present such a theory he would destroy it with red. If you want to use the author theory in relation to Umineko you must turn the story the GM is reading into an interactive one. Quote:
In Umineko's case to create different games Beato moves the pieces differently but the pieces aren't really acting that drasticaly different from a game to another. They merely get more deept. An exception are the Shannon/Kanon pieces as they are aware of the previous games... however Shannon/Kanon is one of the pieces that likely represent directly Beato on the gameboard so, like pieceBattler and pieceErika, they are aware of the meta going on. Quote:
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More than incompetent Battler is unaware of how the game work and he's learning it while playing. He had no idea he could have claimed detective authority so he didn't. A newby at chess although amazingly talented would never figure he can use castling unless someone explains it to him. In a fashion Beato plays dirty because she's an expert player who's forcing someone who never play to fight her and then she makes fun of him because he doesn't know the rules of the game. Quote:
Also all the games have the same culprit, Yasu, and it's possible to guess she's the culprit. If this were to work for Ikuko's tales as well, Ange would have probably asked her why she suspected the maid since she believes Ikuko is close to the truth and someone should have solved her tales. And again: how this interpretation of the author theory explain how Erika killed people without Battler being aware of it? |
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2011-12-28, 16:51 | Link #26642 | |||||||||||
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The Author Theory states that every episode, in its entirety, is a written story. However, some people have speculated that the Meta and Magic scenes don't exist in the actual text, so if you take out the Meta and Magic in each episode, you would have a mystery similar to the one in EP1. So the games are probably just written stories, and the GM and Player are just debating on what actually happened. Naturally, one wouldn't argue with the author of the story, but that fact would've made Umineko an impossible game to play in the first place. However, it has been basically confirmed that the Witch side has simply added in its version of what happened, making it possibly for the Human side to make an counter- argument. Quote:
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2) A mystery can have witches and stuff as long as the answer to it follows the basic rules. 3) Battler probably planned everything so that he can revive Beatrice, so he intentionally forgot about the murders and placed himself in a logic error knowing that the chick- Beatrice he created would find someway to get him out of it and, in turn, evolve into the original Beatrice. This what we call the Genius Battler theory. |
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2011-12-28, 18:27 | Link #26643 | ||||||||||||||||
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As she didn't continue playing I'll say there's no proof to doubt her. Even in Ep 5, to play Bern and Labda had to replace Beato and Battler. If the player was unnecessary Lambda could have played alone.
At least for the mere fun value a player is necessary. Quote:
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However what you're saying is 'Battler wrote that Erika murdered people, Erika heard it and used it to trap Battler in a logic error when he faked forgetting he wrote she murdered people... and Battler continued to pretend he had no idea Erika murdered people in front of everyone'. That's not genius Battler this is unbelievable Battler. Even if he could have forgot or fake to forget such an important detail once Erika pointed it out he shouldn't have acted all surprised and 'how could you' while Erika was all 'yes, I killed them and you didn't know', he should have said 'damn, I forgot I had her kill them' and she should have said 'you're an idiot to forget such thing or hope I'll forget as well'. Also Erika was allowed to seal rooms. She did it retroactively and Battler didn't know what she sealed. This becomes absurd if he was in charge of moving pieceErika. PieceErika couldn't seal anything without him knowing and playerErika wouldn't have needed to report it to him, he would have been the one who would have told her you sealed this, this and this. Quote:
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There's also this scene in which it's said that Battler can rewrite something retroactively. Quote:
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So if I go and say 'character X did it' and it wasn't character X, all he has to do is to give me a red truth that says chara X didn't do it as Eva Beatrice did in Ep 3 when she said the culprits for Nanjo's murder weren't Battler, Jessica or Eva. Otherwise Battler could have accused one of the 3 and it would have been a perfect human solution. Quote:
Eva did so in Ep 3 and Battler destroyed Erika's truth in Ep 5 when he used red to state the corpses weren't moved. Erika built a human culprit theory that wasn't the truth behind the magic scenes. Lambda let it be because it amused her as Beato, in Ep 4, didn't bother destroying some blue truth Battler tossed in (Lambda and Bern at the end of the episode will tell he was wrong). And in Ep 5 we've Erika who's shocked because apparently she didn't hear the corpses weren't moved when Lambda read the story. Erika with her amazing memory, fine hearing and so on didn't hear it while Battler did? Quote:
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Even if you're a beginner at chess you can figure out you've to move the pieces to do something. Note that although Devil's proof is presented as a weapon actually it's the wrong one to use in a mystery. The decalogue destroys the Devil's proofs. In short if using the Devil's proof is the equivalent of figuring he has to move the pieces in chess, he's moving the pieces in the wrong way, allowing Beato to eat them and letting the king in full sight. I wouldn't really call this having a good idea of how things worked. Quote:
I'm aware there are many that think Yasu isn't the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime and that there are few who thinks Yasu isn't the culprit in the games either. This doesn't prove Yasu isn't the culprit in the games as Ryukishi clearly hinted (though I side with the ones who think Yasu isn't the culprit on Rokkenjima Prime). And anyway, unless you're going to say there are different culprits for each games or each game has Eva as a culprit (though Eva didn't kill Nanjo in Ep 3 so we would have an extra culprit for Nanjo's murder), this would have still caused Ange to ask 'why do you think person X was the culprit?' Quote:
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2011-12-28, 19:32 | Link #26644 |
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Please elaborate on the Battler culprit theory.
I mean i think by him not returning to Ange and choosing the witch over her in the end that could be looked upon as being the culprit in ange'seyes. BUt him being the culprit in the murders can someone explain any of this theroy are u saying the whole beatrice thing he made up and his meta -beatice talks are his decsions when making the murders??
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2011-12-28, 20:45 | Link #26645 | ||||||||||
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In any case, the player is obviously necessary, no one's refuting that, but in a game where you have to see things through, you can't stop half- way. Lucky for Battler, Beatrice had plans for him. Quote:
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By the way, it was never mentioned whether piece- Battler was saved by someone or not, Battler just started listing names in hopes somebody would take his piece's place in the room. And again, Beatrice can't revise something that's already been done, the game officially ended with the Logic Error so there's no going back and making revisions. Quote:
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Spoiler for Genius Battler Theory...:
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2011-12-28, 21:52 | Link #26646 |
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Jumping in.
I'm fairly certain the R-Prime readership are at least getting the magical narrative. Not the Meta, but definitely the fantasy. This has been a theory since forever, and EP8 confirms it pretty solidly. I'm also fairly certain that Genius Battler theory explains the idiosyncrasies of Battler's retcon stunts and logic error in EP6. Also agree with Drifloon that we are probably putting far more thought into the Meta Games' level of interactivity than Ryukishi ever did - as stated, it's had a really inconsistent portrayal, and EP6 in particular had a pretty cluster-fudged mess of Meta levels twisting into one another. It's a theory wherein "Battler knew the answer to the logic error all along. He manipulated Erika into creating the Error, and went through the motions of actually being trapped, all for the sake of forcing Beato to solve the Error herself and rescue him. In this way, his game proves his full understanding of Beato's heart, and effectively "revived" Beatrice, who had died in the last game." The theory solves the problem of "Why can Piece-Erika take actions that BATTLER isn't aware of, if he wrote the entire damn story?" There's probably more to be said, but that's my understanding of it in a nutshell. |
2011-12-28, 22:32 | Link #26647 | |
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2011-12-28, 23:15 | Link #26648 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-12-29, 00:01 | Link #26649 |
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Also we don't know that Erika ever saw the story Battler prepared, so if it made any allowances for her stunts, she wouldn't be able to tell.
But that isn't even necessary. All Battler needed to do was structure his tale to allow for a Logic Error and permit Erika exactly what she would need to do it AT SOME POINT. And he quite literally gave her EXACTLY what she needed; not less, not more. Non-genius Battler requires us to believe this was basically a coincidence that he was guilt tripped into giving her a perfectly efficient number of seals. And it's duct tape, by the way, for taping metal ducts, hence its adhesive strength. No one, even Erika, is so sadistic as to tape waterfowl.
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2011-12-29, 00:32 | Link #26650 | ||
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It's primary virtue as an answer is that it makes Touya's identity disassociation from Battler more believable. Also, it's cool. Quote:
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2011-12-29, 01:57 | Link #26651 | |||
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2011-12-29, 03:20 | Link #26653 | |
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And again, there's this. It's very hard to get the impression that the person arguing with Rosa on the game board and the person arguing with Beatrice in the meta-world are not one and the same here: Spoiler for Ep 2 dialogue:
Battler's last line there was definitely heard by Rosa, and it was definitely spoken to Beatrice. |
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2011-12-29, 04:26 | Link #26654 | ||
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Let me get this strait. You think that Beatrice's/Shannon's love for Battler is not the main cause of the Gameboard's existence?
How do you know? None of the Rules X, Y, and Z have been verified, so the only way you can claim this is by assuming your own argument. Prove what? That "Rule Z = Without love it cannot be seen" fits with "Rule Z masks Rules X and Y"? Quote:
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2011-12-29, 10:10 | Link #26655 | ||||||||||||||
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So you said that Beatrice, in a game she created and basically wanted to lose, added the rule that if Battler were to stop playing (not to surrender just to stop playing), she would win (a thing she didn't want), without anything in canon to support this theory but actually going against this (since she claimed she couldn't play without him and stopped playing in Ep 3, she couldn't declare her victory in Ep 4 when Battler was brain dead (nor Battler could declare his victory since she wanted to abandon the game), just to make Bern and Lambda accept the game suspension... sort of... if he couldn't continue and in Ep 5 Bern needed to replace Battler as player)? Sorry, I can't believe it. Quote:
And if he were to rewrite the scene of the letter he would have admitted what Erika did stopped his trick from being effective, giving Erika a clear hint on which was his trick. Note he was allowed to rewrite the letter scene but not the one of the duct tape sealing the rooms and that Erika apologized to him because she was the one who had forgot to inform him about her sealing those rooms. If this isn't a clear hint Erika was free to have her piece seal the rooms without Battler knowing I don't know what is. In the scene is clearly said that Battler needed to be informed about where piece Erika placed the seals, which would be absurd if he was writing piece Erika's actions. Quote:
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The sentence was said, Erika heard it and declared it illogic destroying it with the red truth, Battler was allowed to correct it more than once but couldn't fix it until Beato fixed it using Kanon's name. Quote:
Beato corrected it by having Kanon replace Battler. Quote:
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What I'm saying is that the witch side can explain something with magic but, behind that magic scene there must be a human trick. It doesn't matter if the magic scene is as far as possible from the human trick, the human trick must still be possible. And in Ep 6 we see that although Battler provided magic scenes completely unrelated to the human tricks he used (Eva wasn't killed by George she just faked her death) the human trick must be possible and the witch side MUST have thought which one is it they actually used. It's one of the rules of the game that you can use magic only to make what can be accomplished with human tricks and until Battler/Beato can't think of a human trick to get Battler out of the room he remains trapped in a logic error. Quote:
First, the witch side, who's also represented by the GM KNOWS the truth. We went through it before so I'm not going to repeat it. Second the point wasn't if they lie about the truth and give us a magic interpretation or not. What we were talking about is 'if the human side gives a counter argument that's not the truth the witch/GM side can crush it with red truth in order to win'. In Ep 3 Battler tries the theory 'Jessica killed Nanjo'. EvaBeatrice in order not to let him win crushed him with the red truth 'Jessica didn't kill Nanjo'. Then she gave a magic explanation for it which was, of course, a lie. The point was EvaBeatrice knew the trick used to kill Nanjo and knew Battler hadn't guessed it so she could deny his argument with red. If Battler had guessed the true trick she wouldn't have been able to do so... unless she were capable to switch to another trick (it's clearly said in Ep 6). Quote:
People use devil's proof to say you can't deny the existence of aliens, of God, of everything. In addition in Ep 2 the devil's proof is used by Rudolf in front of Battler and the cousins began using it when they talk about the possibility of Beatrice and Kinzo having a kid with Beatrice being true or false. In that same episode Maria also will use Devil's proof to say Battler can't say witches doesn't exist. All this prior to Battler using it with Beato to say she can't deny the presence of a hidden door... a theory which Beato crushed with red truth. It's not surprising Battler used the devil's proof to make a theory as he EVIDENTLY knew it well. However using it proves he has no idea of how the rules of the game worked and gave him no advantage. Actually Beato did him a favour using red or he would have kept thinking in the wrong direction. Quote:
He believes they are in reality so more than with anti-magic he fights Beato with realism. Which is anti-magic but he's not aware of it (in fact Bern will inform him about this). He completely fail to understand what he's playing with Beato is a mystery game and, even when he's told about Knox in Ep 5, at the beginning rejects it because Knox is an unrealistic approach to things. In fact in real life if you were to say: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. you would sound ridicule. When the police will investigate about a murder it's possible they'll neve come up with the culprit's name through all their investigation. Only around the end of Ep 5 Battler understands that Beato is challenging him to a mystery game. The poor guy was pasically playing at Beato's game without even knowing which sort of game it was even if Beato gave him hints about hers being a mystery game... and she even said in Ep 2: Quote:
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2011-12-29, 12:53 | Link #26656 | |
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Erika didn't know the rules either. Indeed, she believed herself to be in a very different sort of game than even Battler initially did. While she was aware of the game nature of things, she simply believed she had to "win" with an answer that the red did not contradict. This was of course similar to what Beatrice's rules were, except that we know Beatrice had an ulterior motive (and we know Battler had at least one ulterior motive, because ep6 tells us he does).
Thus, we have to conclude that, like Battler before her, Erika didn't "get" all the rules, which means her ignorance of what she thought Battler was capable of doing as GM can be easily understood. Battler's "ignorance," however, would merit an explanation, as it shouldn't be possible for what happened to happen if Battler actually knew what he was doing, which his TIPS entry says he does. Quote:
Moreover, in the "have to be a moron" department, consider that Battler was actually trying to give Erika more advantages than she actually ended up getting. The limited seals were a compromise, a dialing-down of power brokered not by Battler's resistance to granting Erika authority, but Erika's own refusal to accept it. When you think about it this way, the "manipulation" of Battler simply makes no sense at all. He wants to give her more, she wants way less. Any negotiator will tell you that this is an immediate sign that the other person is planning something. Either you've undervalued the part you think is "less," or the other person has a plan which only requires that they get the lesser offer. A good example would be if you were trying to sell a large parcel of undeveloped land to someone. The land is not very valuable, but you're willing to sell it all at a decent price. While negotiating with the buyer, he turns around and says that he'll take only a smaller portion of the land, but will pay far more per acre than you were offering for the whole thing. This should immediately set off warning lights in your head. And indeed, it will often turn out that the smaller parcel he wanted to buy has oil or mineral reserves under it, greatly increasing its value, while the rest of the land is worthless undevelopable junk. That's exactly the situation in ep6. Battler offers Erika the whole parcel (detective authority) and she refuses it, but is willing to accept a smaller offer of less land (the three seals, applicable retroactively). Battler must know that there is "oil" in there (a trick Erika can play only if she doesn't have full authority). Moreover, he already knows what the "oil" is, because Genji/Ronove told him about Logic Errors when he was designing his game. Battler would have to ignore all information he has actually acquired (not merely available to him, mind you; he actually learned all of it) in order to make a deal so obviously detrimental to himself, unless he also knows something Erika does not. To go back to our land example, if the seller knows that the mineral rights have already been severed and sold to another company, he knows that the oil knowledge won't actually benefit the buyer because the oil will not belong to him, but to the company that already purchased the mineral rights. That's the essence of Genius Battler: That Battler knew he wanted a Logic Error to happen and believed or suspected that Erika was going to try for one because she didn't realize just how much knowledge and power the GM actually has. He then set up his story as bait, never intending for it to actually be finished. When you look strictly at the board narrative of ep6, this makes a lot of sense; with all the survivors holed up in the guesthouse, it will be extremely difficult to keep making murders happen. Even more difficult than in ep3, as the survivors are now segregated into only two rooms and watched over by an armed man. This is an incredibly poor setup for the magic side... but it's perfect for creating a Logic Error on the human side.
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2011-12-29, 14:01 | Link #26657 | |
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Let's take for example Erika (as the know-everything-better reader) in EP6 when she took the narrative blank of what happened in the gap between the discovery of the victims and their re-discovery as being definitely dead. Piece-Erika was not covered in the narrative and not the detective so everybody could use this narrative blank and say, "Hey, maybe she went in there and did it, nothing can disprove it!!". So Battler as an author had to somehow work his way out of this logic- and narrative-error in order to make his story work towards the goal he intended. So it could also be read as an accusation of how hints can be insufficient because of the narrative structure and the desire of the author to create a suspenseful plot with enough mystery. Battler tried so hard to cloak the truth that somebody without hesitation to accuse the people present on the island would jump on the bandwagon and fire away. |
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2011-12-29, 14:24 | Link #26658 |
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True, I just have to think he knew that was going to happen given all the other hints he was dropping about his motivation. I would believe that what most shocked Battler wasn't that Erika would do something to trip him up, but that the only way she could do that successfully was by acting in an utterly depraved manner, and she did it gladly. Even if he was faking the surprise in that scene, I think he was clearly genuinely disgusted with her.
Of course the problem with your (entirely valid) reading would be that it seems to make something of a hypocrite of Ryukishi later. "Because the story refuses to fill in the truth, such terrible things can be said by perverse readers who just want to throw out speculation! And here are some terrible goats doing exactly that! By the way, you the reader don't get to read the truth to fill in that blank. Have fun."
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2011-12-29, 14:47 | Link #26659 | |||
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When Erika became a player however, Bern witdrawed her help and Erika had to continue on her own. The decalogue, the detective declaration and such are all things Battler didn't know to be so useful prior to game 5 (although Beato mentioned Knox and Van Dine in Ep 2 he continued to not consider them as 'rules' and ask for confirmation about things Knox and Van Dine could have told him). Erika evidently pursues victory in a way that wouldn't work if Beato was the GM in 5. She searches for a 'truth' that will amuse her master (and likely the GM) and not for one that is THE TRUTH. Lambda however gave her free reign and accepted her false truth (while Beato would have stuck it down) so maybe Erika knew the GM would accept a fake truth as long as it fit with some requisites... Going back to Ep 6.... I think that Battler knew that Erika was after a logic error. He however didn't know how she was going to create it though he helped her to get the means to create it, namely ways to use red truth. First he tries with the detective authority, which she refuses, then with the seals, which she accepts. However there's a difference between Battler & Erika's knowledge of the game and that is that Battler knew about ShKannon and Erika didn't. He could have used ShKannon to get himself out of the logic error but either wanted Beato to do it for him or didn't want to use it. I would say that murders in EP 6 would become pretty difficults but didn't Ryukishi said in an interview that among the plans he later discharged there was a game in which Battler closed everyone in a single room? (though I might remember wrong so feel free to correct me if that's the case). Quote:
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Battler's story was supposed to be a prank but Erika wanted a murder to filled up the blanks with a murder. Rokkenjima Prime was also supposed to be nothing else but an incident but, if you want to fill the blanks with a gruesome murders, well, have fun. You're just like Erika. This however works only if you believe the hints Ryukishi gave that the Rokenjima incident was just an incident are believable enough. If that's not the case Ryukishi had been too vague in his narrative and being like Erika was a perfectly legittimate decision. |
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2011-12-29, 14:51 | Link #26660 |
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Remember that Bern doesn't know everything either (at least at that point). It's very possible even Bernkastel doesn't know how the game works exactly, so she could've been little help to Erika even if she wanted to... and that's the other factor, whether Bern would even tell Erika some critical piece of information if watching her fail would be more amusing. Bern is a dick.
And yes, I don't think Battler knew exactly how Erika was planning to force a Logic Error, but he was clearly trying to give her every opportunity to do it. The Detective Authority was his first offer and perhaps he intended that she use it to somehow entrap him, but his compromise offer is so oddly specific and was so readily agreeable to Erika that he has to have seen her machinations coming. Whether he knew, or suspected, that she'd stoop so low is another matter entirely, I don't know. I'd like to think he suspected it was a way to force a Logic Error but didn't think Erika would be so cruel.
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