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Old 2011-02-14, 21:21   Link #241
Taufiq91
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Enjoy some Kyubey good with Dubstep:

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Old 2011-02-14, 22:22   Link #242
EndlessDestiny
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faust

I'm really surprised that no one brought up all the Faust references. The series is full of them. Without those references, Kyubee could just be a somewhat creepy mascot.

In episode 2, there is a line from Fause sprawled on the walls. http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Ep2_Goethe_Quote.jpg . The Walpurgis Night mentioned in episode six is also connected with Faust.

For those not familiar, the premise of Faust is : a man summons/is approached by a cute animal (dog/puppy) that makes a bargain with Faust: Mephistopheles (the animal) will serve Faust with his magic powers for a term of years, but at the end of the term, the devil will claim Faust's soul and Faust will be eternally damned.

There's also in the first episode where we see Kyubee 'bleeding'. http://img840.imageshack.us/i/kyubeievilbastard2.jpg/ . It looks more like his skin is peeling off and there's something red underneath.

Madoka and Faust: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Speculah...gica_and_Faust
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Old 2011-02-14, 22:46   Link #243
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I've flat-out called him Mephistopheles on a few occasions.
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Old 2011-02-15, 10:54   Link #244
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I just call him freaky.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:08   Link #245
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Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to ask questions. Simple questions, but ones that Kyube has yet to answer. Why doesn't he answer them? I don't know. I mean, someone must have asked, right?

What is going on? Where do witches come from? I'm not saying he knows or would tell us if we asked, but isn't it interesting he hasn't told us? I'm not saying he's an evil and manipulating bastard who engages in torment for his own delight, but if he isn't, why won't he deny it?

All of you know it. Deep in your heart, that troubling feeling that something is wrong. That this isn't the world it could be. Is Kyube responsible? I don't know. I'm just asking questions. He seems to be creating Magical Girls to fight witches for the betterment of all mankind, but think about that for a second. Making things better for all of us? Isn't that socialism? Let's take a look at his goals:

Kill all witches
Yearns to make contracts
Unspoken ulterior motives
Buries grief seeds in his own subspace pocket
Employs little girls

That's what we know of Kyube, and we can tell because if we take the first letter of each there, they spell out his name. That's what we know. But what don't we know? There are known unknowns, which are things we know that we don't know know. But there are also unknown unknowns that are things we don't know that we don't know. So what don't we know about Kyube? I'm just asking questions here, but isn't it interesting that no one has asked him these deeper questions.

Let's look deeper, shall we? What other questions can we ask?

Should he be doing more to help out?
Or perhaps do more to talk girls out of fighting each other?
Surely he can at least explain everything up front?
Oblige his girls by letting them know?
Show some better understanding of human emotion?

Oh, wait, I think I see it now. Do you? If we take the first letters of the questions we want to know, we get our answer: SOROS. George Soros. Where is he in all of this? You don't see him, do you? Is it possible that Kyube is really George Soros, and he's in league with the witches to take over humanity in a bid to force socialism on all of us? I don't know. I'm just asking questions. But isn't it interesting that he hasn't denied it?

Ladies and gentlemen, everything I've said has to be true, otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to post in this discussion forum. I'm not anyone special; just a concerned AS poster like you. Someone who wants answers to his questions. And I feel we should keep demanding to have our questions answered. Don't we deserve at least that much?

So I ask you: Is Kyube evil and manipulative?
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:44   Link #246
Seihai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Kill all witches
Yearns to make contracts
Unspoken ulterior motives
Buries grief seeds in his own subspace pocket
Employs little girls
Haha... nice one.

Quote:
Let's look deeper, shall we? What other questions can we ask?

Should he be doing more to help out?
Or perhaps do more to talk girls out of fighting each other?

Surely he can at least explain everything up front?
Oblige his girls by letting them know?
Show some better understanding of human emotion?

So I ask you: Is Kyube evil and manipulative?
Since when do you ask simple questions?! (just kidding xD)

Madoka: Say something to her, too!
Kyubei: I can't change anything.

Madoka: (when Kyouko and Sayaka fight) Can't you do something?
Kyubei: lolno


Person who can see Kyubei: So what if xxx
Kyubei: *dodges question* XYZ has great potential. If you really want help, you can ask her to become a Magical girl! ^_^


Person who can see Kyubei: Tell me about xxx in detail or else yyy
Kyubei: Sigh I don't understand you humans...
[Note: he might explain things but will deem them ultimately convenient]


Person: My entire family just died *super emotional*
Kyubei: It can't be helped.


Sorry, don't know about that George-nantoka.

Maybe. Maybe not. Can't we just go with gut feeling?
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:34   Link #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Kill all witches
Does he? In 6 episodes, it's always been the girls talking about fighting the witches first, then Kyubei responding. Has he ever upfront said, "I want you to to kill witches. And I'll throw in a wish if you do."?
Only in ep6 does he show any consideration that the girls have to fight witches. I refuse to speculate whether that's on his own initiative, dictated to him by his superiors or just how the "system" works.
Is this a truly a goal or just a side benefit of his operations?

Quote:
Yearns to make contracts
Now this is the only thing I agree is a goal. It's the only thing we've seen him place a priority on.

Quote:
Buries grief seeds in his own subspace pocket
Employs little girls
These are operational procedures, not goals.

Quote:
Unspoken ulterior motives
This is so undefined, it cannot be considered a goal.

Quote:
If we take the first letters of the questions we want to know, we get our answer: SOROS. George Soros. Where is he in all of this? You don't see him, do you?
It's an S not an R in the third question. Who or what is SOSOS?

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But isn't it interesting that he hasn't denied it?
You know why, nice try at mocking.

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Ladies and gentlemen, everything I've said has to be true, otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to post in this discussion forum.
As I just pointed out, they don't need to be true. Your statement of his goals aren't true, they're just your opinions pending dialog or action in the series supporting them.
Does that mean you'll stop posting now?
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:52   Link #248
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I'm sorry, I guess not everyone would get the joke, heh. You might wanna watch the South Park episode "Dances with Smurfs" which is in of itself a satire of Glenn Beck. ;p

Edit to add from the other thread:
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Considering the lengths you go to defend him, Kaijo, I'd say you've made up your mind too.
Hey, I'll admit that I do defend him; but I also have to admit that's due to the amount of "He must be EVIL!" speculation that gets trotted around as fact. But people like Triple_R, Reckoner, and myself are perfectly willing to change our minds.

As I said, to my knowledge, I am the only one who has stated plausible conditions which would result in the changing of my mind. Hell, I've already had some changing of my mind when this very episode aired, as my opinion of him lowered a bit, due to the new information. So, my opinion has already undergone some change.

And if there is some evidence that shows him as evil (such as having created the entire situation in the first place for the lulz), I'll be posting here saying, "Yep, guess he is evil."

Is it such a bad thing to want concrete evidence before deciding someone guilty?
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Old 2011-02-15, 18:36   Link #249
Jimmy C
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As others have stated, you post your opinions as fact. You never said, "we don't have enough information." You always say, "such and such means he's not evil and that's a fact."
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Old 2011-02-15, 18:45   Link #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
As others have stated, you post your opinions as fact. You never said, "we don't have enough information." You always say, "such and such means he's not evil and that's a fact."
Please quote where I did so. Because I can drag up numerous posts where I stated over and over again that we don't have enough information, which has been my position all along.

Well, absent the ones where I was trying to be humorous. ;p
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Old 2011-02-15, 20:17   Link #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Perhaps, but beating down Sayaka right in front of Madoka, isn't going to make Madoka anymore enthused with Homura. She has to know that. She has to have at least considered that attacking Sayaka might make Madoka become an MG just to protect her friend... something she has supposedly been going against since the beginning.
This is your own opinion as to Homura's thought processes. you're pushing it as a fact.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
He can only recruit girls that have magical potential, and that's a limited pool. Hitomi obviously didn't have that. So he is stuck with the girls he has.
You're stating this as a fact when it's an assumption. We have no info on his selection criteria, other than it seems Madoka has a big signboard over her head that says, "CONTRACT ME!"

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Which opinion would that be? That I believe Kyube's actions to be of net benefit to humanity? I'm sorry, but that's fact from what we know so far. If he didn't do anything, witches and familiars would be killing humans. So his actions result in witches living shorter lives and thus not impacting them as much.
That is an opinion. That it's in line with what we've seen so far doesn't make it a stated fact. If it was a fact, it'd be impossible to argue that Kyubei's actions are not of net benefit to humanity. But people are arguing about that, aren't they?
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Old 2011-02-15, 20:39   Link #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
This is your own opinion as to Homura's thought processes. you're pushing it as a fact.
You're right, it is my opinion, my interpretation; I wasn't pushing it as fact. If you thought it was, then we had a miscommunication.

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You're stating this as a fact when it's an assumption. We have no info on his selection criteria, other than it seems Madoka has a big signboard over her head that says, "CONTRACT ME!"
Kyube stated that only girls who have magic potential can see him. Hitomi couldn't. You are free to assume other reasons why he wouldn't contract with Hitomi, I suppose, but I can't see why he'd contract with a girl who doesn't have magic potential. It wouldn't seem productive.

So we DO have information on his criteria: he needs girls with magic potential. There could be other criteria we don't know about, but that would be assumption-based. And he's said several times that Madoka has a LOT of magical potential. So those are facts.

Quote:
That is an opinion. That it's in line with what we've seen so far doesn't make it a stated fact. If it was a fact, it'd be impossible to argue that Kyubei's actions are of net benefit to humanity. But people are arguing about that, aren't they?
This reminds me so much of the creationist "Teach the Controversy!" argument. Hey, people are arguing about Intelligent Design vs. Evolution, so obviously there has to be merit to the ID theory!

I believe you are aware of the logical fallacy in that.

But facts are what we know right now. What you're essentially arguing is that there can be no facts, because we can always learn something new tomorrow that will change that. So when someone says, "Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus" you would reply with, "That's not a fact, that's just in line with what we know right now. New information tomorrow could change that fact!"

Do you see the problem with that? We can't have any facts with your line of thought. Of course new information can always change things, but there are facts today, regardless of how we feel about it. Today, gravity pulls things to Earth.

Today, we know this:

Witches and familiars are harming humans. Only magical girls can fight and kill them. Kyube contracts with girls to make them magical girls. The logic follows that this would mean diminished witches and familiars about, which would mean humanity doesn't suffer as much. Ergo, humanity benefits from Kyube's presence.

And yes, I've also acknowledged that he has morally questionable methods, but I'm only analyzing it on a coldly logical way.

Yes, we can always learn a new truth in the next episode that would change all that. And when that happens, I'll gladly go: "Well, guess we have a new fact now." Hell, maybe Kyube is creating witches. Maybe he gets off on watching the whole shebang, and without him around, witches and magical girls would cease to exist. Thus, his presence is NOT a net benefit to humanity.

But that's speculation. Until that happens, if it does, the facts are as they are now. His presence making magical girls mean less humans are harmed. Believe that he has some darker ulterior motive if you want, and maybe you'll be right. I'll switch to your viewpoint if that's revealed as such.

Seriously, I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you. Perhaps you can help me out on that, and let me know what would change your mind.
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Old 2011-02-15, 20:47   Link #253
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Given how uncomfortable Kyuubei makes me feel, it's very easy for me to jump on the 'is creepy, plus does dubious things = evil!' bandwagon. However, given who it is doing the writing, I'm more leaning towards the opinion that Kyuubei is kind of like a magical construct tasked with completing a duty through whatever means necessary. Kind of like the Inevitables of D&D lore.

That, or he simply has a different values system that's alien to human understanding (see: Saya no Uta).
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Old 2011-02-15, 21:07   Link #254
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Kyube stated that only girls who have magic potential can see him.
Exactly where did he say this? In ep2, which was the only place I could think of, all I get is Madoka saying "others can't see him"

Quote:
What you're essentially arguing is that there can be no facts, because we can always learn something new tomorrow that will change that.
Don't stuff words in my month, that's unbecoming of you. What I did was draw a line between facts and opinions. You're the one taking everything off the facts side.

Quote:
Witches and familiars are harming humans. Only magical girls can fight and kill them. Kyube contracts with girls to make them magical girls.
These are the facts. Though if I were to be strict about it, I remove "only" from the sentence.

Quote:
The logic follows that this would mean diminished witches and familiars about, which would mean humanity doesn't suffer as much. Ergo, humanity benefits from Kyube's presence.
That's a conclusion. It's probably the correct one. But as you know, it's sometimes possible to draw a completely opposite conclusion based on the same facts. So, if Conclusion A is considered a fact bacause the facts lead to it, yet Conclusion B states "A is false" based on the same facts, how am I supposed to pick which is really a fact?
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Old 2011-02-15, 21:11   Link #255
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Originally Posted by Kaijo
And yes, I've also acknowledged that he has morally questionable methods, but I'm only analyzing it on a coldly logical way.
That, I think, is the center of all dispute we are having... You are treating like there are only one-way-road to the logical analysis, when Urobuchi's troll space isn't closed spaced like we do in thermodynamics ideal gas theory.
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Old 2011-02-15, 22:06   Link #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Exactly where did he say this? In ep2, which was the only place I could think of, all I get is Madoka saying "others can't see him"
Hmm, thought I remembered it a bit differently. The only other thing I can find is that one can see one's magical talent before becoming an MG, and Kyube says that Madoka's is the biggest he's ever seen. Given that he can magical talent by practically salivating over Madoka's,

So I'll cheerfully admit that my previous position was a bit incorrect(ooh, he's changing his opinion in the face of true fact? I thought he wouldn't!). But as you see in ep 3, we know exactly why Kyube wants Madoka: she has very large... magical talents.

Quote:
Don't stuff words in my month, that's unbecoming of you. What I did was draw a line between facts and opinions. You're the one taking everything off the facts side.
I'll cheerfully apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying; after all, communication can be difficult and thus we can allow space for misunderstandings, ne?

But not everything I have been saying is fact; as I stated above, some things were speculation.

Quote:
These are the facts. Though if I were to be strict about it, I remove "only" from the sentence.
I wouldn't, because that is the only way we currently know. If such a time comes as we learn another way to deal with witches, then it can be removed. But as of now, it's a current fact.

Quote:
That's a conclusion. It's probably the correct one. But as you know, it's sometimes possible to draw a completely opposite conclusion based on the same facts. So, if Conclusion A is considered a fact bacause the facts lead to it, yet Conclusion B states "A is false" based on the same facts, how am I supposed to pick which is really a fact?
You're clouding the issue and trying to distract from it. As I've said before, those are the facts as we currently know them.

So, how would you say Kyube isn't a net benefit to humanity? And remember, no speculation about what we may learn in the future. Using the facts that we agreed to, explain how Kyube presence is detrimental *overall* to humanity.

This means no "There must be another method!" because that's something we don't know currently. Maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. But as of right now, Kyube's magical girls are killing witches, and thus there are less witches to prey upon humans. Ergo, net benefit. Currently.

Some conclusions you can reach with logic. If a character steps off a cliff, they don't need to show you that person falling to know exactly what happened. They didn't really show what happened to Mami, but we can conclude from the facts that she had her head chewed on. There are some conclusions that can't be drawn, this is true; but in this case, there is one.

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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
That, I think, is the center of all dispute we are having... You are treating like there are only one-way-road to the logical analysis, when Urobuchi's troll space isn't closed spaced like we do in thermodynamics ideal gas theory.
Logic is generally one way, and by it's very nature, is emotionless. Logic would say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so the few should die for the many. Emotion would say that no one should die. You are free to offer up your own logical analysis to scrutiny if you like.

If you haven't watched much of the original Star Trek, then you missed out on some great McCoy/Spock interactions. But I notice a lot of the "logic" here would cast Spock, and most Vulcans, as evil. Heh, hell, Bones certainly felt that way a lot of the time.
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Old 2011-02-16, 00:34   Link #257
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That, I think, is the center of all dispute we are having... You are treating like there are only one-way-road to the logical analysis, when Urobuchi's troll space isn't closed spaced like we do in thermodynamics ideal gas theory.
Funny you bring that up with all the hot air being blown around here...

Anyway, my interpretation of all this bloviation is:

UNTIL THE ANIME ACTUALLY SHOWS IT, ANY SPECULATION IS JUST THAT: SPEC...U...LA...TION.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion (and speculation), but when the speculation gets presented as fact without the "facts" to back it up, then we have a problem.

Compare: Fanon vs. Canon
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Old 2011-02-16, 04:26   Link #258
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Funny you bring that up with all the hot air being blown around here...
Now thinking of it...

Well, I say kyuube is creepi sinsu he has hol in hiz back!

I guess that can work.
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Old 2011-02-16, 12:17   Link #259
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In a bit of a side note, and to add to a different train of speculation...

Kyube says to Madoka in ep 3, that he can't suggest anything, because it's against the rules. Think about that; Kyube is bound by rules. What other possible rules could he be bound by? And what possible reasons could there be for those rules? I have the following speculated reasons:

#1. Something more powerful than Kyube sent him here/allowed him to come here, but gave him specific rules that he couldn't cross for whatever reason. What happens if Kyube breaks them? Is he forced back home, leaving us defenseless to witches? Did he make some sort of bargain to be allowed into the human world to create defenders to fight witches?

#2. It's some sort of game, contest, or test, which implies at least one other side that Kyube is competing against, whether a bet, or some sort of defined struggle or war. Could be simply two beings toying with humanity, or two beings who have brought their conflict to humanity. They've agreed to ground rules in their use of humans in the engagement, though.

And lastly, an honest question for those who feel Kyube is evil. If it is revealed that Kyube is bound by enough rules, such that this is the only way he can act to protect us against witches, would that raise your opinion of him to no longer think him evil?

We have many movies, shows and books that show us of people being forced to act a certain way, because a loved one is held hostage, or there are other threats hanging over their head. Can you call a thief evil, if he is being forced to steal lest something worse happen?

Again, not saying this is the case. But I stated scenarios which would change my mind, so I'm interested if there are scenarios would change someone on the other side's mind.
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Old 2011-02-16, 13:05   Link #260
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

And lastly, an honest question for those who feel Kyube is evil. If it is revealed that Kyube is bound by enough rules, such that this is the only way he can act to protect us against witches, would that raise your opinion of him to no longer think him evil?

We have many movies, shows and books that show us of people being forced to act a certain way, because a loved one is held hostage, or there are other threats hanging over their head. Can you call a thief evil, if he is being forced to steal lest something worse happen?
The problem with "being bound by rules" is that rules he talks about are eerily reminiscent of the traditional rules the devil needs to get your soul (a.k.a, you have to hand it over yourself).

Given the nature of the show's relationship with faust, the fact the he does indeed take out their souls and then take the grief seeds of witches that may or may not have eaten MG's souls... Well, it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Of course, it *is* possible gen is trolling us with all those hints about Evil!Kyuube.

Also, kaijo: as far as we know, there is nothing worse happening, neither to the world, nor to kyuube, that justifies what he does and the way he does things. It could appear in the future, but i'll answer to your question: i can forgive thieves. I can't not call someone who destroy soul and kill people Evil.

Something to remember is that the lesser evil is still evil.
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