Macross Frontier - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[cheesie]

Never mind that Sheryl's excitement was genuine when she thought up the birthday present, never mind that she immediately called him out to offer him the gift, never mind that Ranka already offered her birthday gift it just so happens Alto was away, everyone keeps moaning about how evil Sheryl swoops in to snatch Alto-hime away from Ranka's birthday present when they conveniently forget that Alto has chose to accept Sheryl's present.

Please don't forget, people: Alto is still part of the triangle.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by stray

To be fair, it was a badass gift. I don't really want to call it insincere, necessarily, since I don't think that's the case per se, but I really feel like it was alot more selfish than most people seem to think. Someone a few pages back dropped the old "if you love something, set it free" cliche with regard to Ranka... but, when push comes to shove, Sheryl knew all about Ranka's ticket for Alto. It's pretty clear she came up with the idea after finding this out, and she's forcing the issue, knowing that she's sick, too, and unwilling to back down. I don't blame her really; but her plan wasn't any less doomed to fail horribly. Although ep 12 brought new meaning to the term failure...

This is the part that I don't fully understand. I've seen a lot of posts of how Sheryl knew about Ranka's plans and was somehow responsible for Ranka being left behind. But even assuming she knew everything about Ranka's plans (which even Alto didn't know until the last minute, mind you), what was she supposed to do? If you came up with a gift like that for someone you truly cared about, would you conceal it from them?

Wasn't this supposed to be Alto's birthday? Wouldn't it be even worse had Sheryl had denied Alto the opportunity to exercise his own choice on his special day?

The problem is that people are looking for someone to blame. Just as Sheryl fans can't possibly blame Ranka for Sheryl's illness, I don't see how Ranka fans could ever blame Sheryl for Ranka's misfortunes. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. But if we let our frustration spill over, then we run the risk of being unable to enjoy both characters to the fullest.

Originally Posted by stray

The present isn't really for Alto, it's for her. She's so shelled up, so "Sheryl Nome," so aloof, tsun tsun, etc. that the only way she can really let her guard down and let Alto know she's falling in love with him (especially with Ranka there) is to do something that completely over the top perfect that Alto would end up a dere dere mess of bishonen manliness flying around the skies of Gallia 4. And that's exactly why she fucked up so spectacularly.

The purpose of a gift is to let someone know how you feel about them. That's the reason why a handwritten poem carries more sentimental value than a Hallmark card. Instead of giving some generic gift that could she could just as easily have given out to anyone, Sheryl came up with a gift that was very specific and personal to Alto.

[stray]

Originally Posted by crisis

Please don't forget, people: Alto is still part of the triangle.

Alto = Minmay. He's just messing things up until the inevitable RankaXSheryl ending.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The problem is that people are looking for someone to blame. Just as Sheryl fans can't possibly blame Ranka for Sheryl's illness, I don't see how Ranka fans could ever blame Sheryl for Ranka's misfortunes. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. But if we let our frustration spill over, then we run the risk of being unable to enjoy both characters to the fullest.

Actually, I'm more of a pissed off Sheryl fan that started yelling for her head when I saw where this was going. I don't even think you see that move in almost any anime, it's that horrible, and never, ever in the history of human civilization has it worked.

I saw it in Hitch, though, with Will Smith...

If nothing else, Sheryl is trying to be a playa, though, I will give her that.

The purpose of a gift is to let someone know how you feel about them. That's the reason why a handwritten poem carries more sentimental value than a Hallmark card. Instead of giving some generic gift that could she could just as easily have given out to anyone, Sheryl came up with a gift that was very specific and personal to Alto.

That's the whole premise of the move!@@!!! It's got to be damn near the greatest present ever, and must be presented without too too much affection from insecure/walled off gifter. Love interest melts, gifter professes feelings, love interest falls head over heels, etc. etc. Oh yah and any competing love interest to the love interest get squashed like bugs. Except... it never, ever, ever, ever happens like that. And, honestly, it shouldn't, because it sucks ass for character development.

Seriously, worst. move. ever. Come on Sheryl!!!

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by stray

Actually, I'm more of a pissed off Sheryl fan that started yelling for her head when I saw where this was going. I don't even think you see that move in almost any anime, it's that horrible, and never, ever in the history of human civilization has it worked.

I saw it in Hitch, though, with Will Smith...

If nothing else, Sheryl is trying to be a playa, though, I will give her that.

Would it make you feel better if you knew that Sheryl always puts a lot of thought into her gifts for the people whom she cares about - even women? There's a blog entry which shows the amount of thought that she put into Ranka's birthday present, and let me say, that was pure poetry as well. Perhaps she was trying to land Ranka too?

Sometimes a gift really is just a gift.

Here's the blog entry, by the way:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ay#post1655242
It's labeled April 28th, 2059.

Originally Posted by stray

That's the whole premise of the move!@@!!! It's got to be damn near the greatest present ever, and must be presented without too too much affection from insecure/walled off gifter. Love interest melts, gifter professes feelings, love interest falls head over heels, etc. etc. Oh yah and any competing love interest to the love interest get squashed like bugs. Except... it never, ever, ever, ever happens like that. And, honestly, it shouldn't, because it sucks ass for character development.

She was positively brimming with emotion and excitement. I'm not sure where you're getting this "walled off" part from, but perhaps it's a consequence of your choice of analogy?

Treat every situation and every person as unique. You don't want to run the risk of judging a person based on what someone else did.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Would it make you feel better if you knew that Sheryl always puts a lot of thought into her gifts for the people whom she cares about - even women? There's a blog entry which shows the amount of thought that she put into Ranka's birthday present, and let me say, that was pure poetry as well. Perhaps she was trying to land Ranka as well?

^ Hey, I am shipping for a yuri ending, for the record.

Sometimes a gift really is just a gift. I can find the specific entry, if you want.
...
Treat every situation and every person as unique.

I'll agree to disagree with you here and meet you in the episode 13 thread. I'm shipped out for the day. Regardless, even though I'm stereotyping Sheryl's move, that's not to say that she's not one of the most interesting characters I've ever seen.

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Interestingly, the phrase "hold on to" has the same meaning as the word "cling". Euphemism, perhaps?

I'm not the one who's big on euphemism here. I'm merely pointing out that Ranka's desire to hold on to Alto isn't because she wants to "secure" him like some possession. I think stray pretty much nailed my take on Ranka, so I'll let this case rest.

Originally Posted by crisis

Never mind that Sheryl's excitement was genuine when she thought up the birthday present, never mind that she immediately called him out to offer him the gift, never mind that Ranka already offered her birthday gift it just so happens Alto was away, everyone keeps moaning about how evil Sheryl swoops in to snatch Alto-hime away from Ranka's birthday present when they conveniently forget that Alto has chose to accept Sheryl's present.

It was revealed that Ranka's first live was the day after Alto's birthday, and considering how it'd take a week to get back to Frontier from Galia 4, Alto would definitely miss the concert the moment he went with Sheryl. I'm not one of those people who blamed Sheryl for Ranka's misfortune in 11, I actually liked the bittersweet scene, but when Sheryl offered Alto an offer he couldn't refuse, it is kind of ambiguous if she wanted to step on Ranka or merely forgotten about her first live. (lol both sound suspicious)

One thing is for sure though: Sheryl knew Ranka's planning to invite Alto on her first live. Take that as you will.

We don't get to peek inside Sheryl's head, that's why we get all these suspicions against her. Frankly, I don't blame them since there's no way to prove her innocence as well as her guiltiness regarding this matter. For now.

Originally Posted by crisis

Please don't forget, people: Alto is still part of the triangle.

True. Did anyone notice? When Alto flew with Ranka, he laughed out loud for the first time. That has got to be the happiest state Alto has been in all throughout his emo trip in the series. It's a pretty big contrast to what his face looked like when he left frontier for Galia 4. While I do think he also has chemistry with Sheryl, Alto is always more relaxed when he's with Ranka. And I mean that literally.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by stray

^ Hey, I am shipping for a yuri ending, for the record.

So am I, by coincidence.

Originally Posted by ani_d

Did anyone notice? When Alto flew with Ranka, he laughed out loud for the first time. That has got to be the happiest state Alto has been in all throughout his emo trip in the series.

The first time after episode five, you mean?

Originally Posted by ani_d

We don't get to peek inside Sheryl's head, that's why we get all these suspicions against her. Frankly, I don't blame them since there's no way to prove her innocence as well as her guiltiness regarding this matter.

Guilty until presumed innocent, eh?

Originally Posted by ani_d

It was revealed that Ranka's first live was the day after Alto's birthday, and considering how it'd take a week to get back to Frontier from Galia 4, Alto would definitely miss the concert the moment he went with Sheryl. I'm not one of those people who blamed Sheryl for Ranka's misfortune in 11, I actually liked the bittersweet scene, but when Sheryl offered Alto an offer he couldn't refuse, it is kind of ambiguous if she wanted to step on Ranka or merely forgotten about her first live. (lol both sound suspicious)

Perhaps you're willing to give me your take on this. Let's say that you're in Sheryl's shoes, and you've just come up with an idea that allows Alto to fulfill a long standing dream of his. What would you have done?

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The first time after episode five, you mean?

"Heheh..." vs "HAHAHAHAHA"

Need I say more? lol

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Perhaps you're willing to give me your take on this. Let's say that you're in Sheryl's shoes, and you've just come up with an idea that allows Alto to fulfill a long standing dream of his. What would you have done?

Asking him if he received any invitation from Ranka-chan would be a good start.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by ani_d

"Heheh..." vs "HAHAHAHAHA"

Need I say more? lol

So you think of it as a competition to see who can make Alto laugh the hardest?

Originally Posted by ani_d

Asking him if he received any invitation from Ranka-chan would be a good start.

Let's say that he has. What do you do? Do you tell him about the idea that allows him to fulfill his dream? Or do you keep it a secret?

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

So you think of it as a competition to see who can make Alto laugh the hardest?

Now you're missing the point.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Let's say that he has. What do you do? Do you tell him about the idea that allows him to fulfill his dream? Or do you keep it a secret?

To tell the truth, my opinion doesn't matter whether Sheryl should tell Alto or not from thereon. The best way to clear her name from the current accusation is for her to make sure she wasn't stepping on anyone's toes--especially when she specifically heard that someone's planning to invite Alto to her first live.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by ani_d

Now you're missing the point.

What was it, then?

Originally Posted by ani_d

To tell the truth, my opinion doesn't matter whether Sheryl should tell Alto or not from thereon. The best way to clear her name from the current accusation is for her to make sure she wasn't stepping on anyone's toes--especially when she specifically heard that someone's planning to invite Alto to her first live.

Oh, it does. You implied that this extra piece of information was somehow relevant for Sheryl in deciding whether she should tell Alto or not.

So now you have that information. How could you use it to act in a way such that you don't step on anyone's toes? What's the appropriate course of action here?

[Westlo]

Sheryl uses Grace to keep track of her own stuff (as would Ranka with her manager) you think she would remember the date for Ranka's live.. it's not like Ranka said "my live is in 2 days time Sheryl-san" when they talked...

[Anh_Minh]

Sheryl could have used her sickness as an excuse to push back her own trip to Gallia 4...

Note: I don't blame her for failing to see how bad it was, or inviting Alto. Just saying, she wasn't completely without alternatives.

[ickem]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Sheryl could have used her sickness as an excuse to puch back her own trip to Gallia 4...

Note: I don't blame her for failing to see how bad it was, or inviting Alto. Just saying, she wasn't completely without alternatives.

I think one of the main reasons that she didn't push it back was because she was pretty damned excited about going to a place with a real sky both for Alto and herself (similar to how I can force myself to watch bad raws because of my addiction to Frontier ). She had not even seen any natural landscapes on the other bioplants during her tour, let alone a actual planet with a real sky. I can easily see her forgetting everything else and trying to push herself through the fever for this and for her other motive in going, to check out the rumor of survivors from Galaxy. From everything that we've been shown, Sheryl is anything but a quitter and it took an illness that literally prevented her from standing to stop her. Which bodes very well for triangle fireworks from here on out.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Sheryl could have used her sickness as an excuse to push back her own trip to Gallia 4...

Note: I don't blame her for failing to see how bad it was, or inviting Alto. Just saying, she wasn't completely without alternatives.

Given that Sheryl's arrival was part of negotiations, and seeing how fragile said negotiations were, I doubt that she had any choice about the date. She was probably just asked whether she could be there at the specified time or not.

If pushing back a concert date actually was as easy as calling in sick for work, though (which it isn't), then Ranka could have done the same as well. But she didn't call in to see what Alto's plans were in the first place, either; she just left him a message to be there, at the last minute. Had she made plans in advance and gotten his feedback first, then he wouldn't have been forced to leave her a message that he couldn't.

But I'm glad that you're trying to think of alternatives, though.

Still, it's just one of those situations where you can't please everyone at once, and it just isn't even your decision to begin with. It's unfortunate that she should get the flak for it.

[Anh_Minh]

Ranka wasn't sick, and Ranka isn't the Sheryl Nome. Indeed, it was Sheryl's duty to call in sick. She messed up, as she recognized herself. (Also, an event in a small backwater is much easier to push back than a concert at a big hall in a city. It involves much fewer people. )

Yes, placating the mutineers would have been a problem. But it's not like collapsing in front of them made the situation better, did it?

And yes, Ranka's time management leaves much to be desired.

[D a m i e n]

i m rarely browsing/posting on the macross boards but couldnt sheryl's sickness be the result of grace's doing? i remember from the raw that grace was in communication with the gay looking dude.
the same gay looking dude was like impressive it s just as you planned during eps12.

sorry if the grace subject has already been discussed

[Bakafool]

I may be wrong, but this is my hunch:

That Macross in Galia 4 isn't the original SDF-1 Macross. It probably came from Megaroad 01, which contained a battle section that closely resembled SDF-1 Macross and a separate city section.

A battle probably occurred in Galia 4 between Megaroad and some enemy we don't know yet. They left the battle section of Megaroad to fight off the enemy allowing the rest of Megaroad (the city section) to flee even further into space.

That seems to be the logical explanation, cuz SDF-1 Macross was on Earth in Macross Plus, just 19 years before Frontier. Also, there is something in Galia 4 that reacts to Ranka's singing, which could imply this this same thing reacted to Minmay's singing a long long time ago when Megaroad was in the same area.

Another more farfetched idea is that when the bird thing (Aphos?) flew off in Macross Zero, it took Macross with it. Possible but very unlikely.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ani_d

"Heheh..." vs "HAHAHAHAHA"

Need I say more? lol

I can't say I understood the point of this rather... erm... pointless claim.

To use 'laughter' as a gauge for 'affection' between Alto and the girls would not be a wise thing to do, especially in the world of Macross.

However, seeing how you have a track record of reading too much into something and then forcing some kind of a belief system onto us, allow me to slightly enlighten you why laughter as a claim for affection might not do you any good.

Macross

Hikaru laughed with Minmei, but never once with Misa Hayase. Guess who he ended up with?

Macross II

Hibiki laughed with Ishtar, but never once with Silvi. Guess who he ended up with?

Macross Zero

Shin laughed with Mao, but never once with Sara. Guess who he ended up (MIA) with?

Nope, I am not convinced.

Ja, verstehen?

- Tak

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Tak

I can't say I understood the point of this rather... erm... pointless claim.

To use 'laughter' as a gauge for 'affection' between Alto and the girls would not be a wise thing to do, especially in the world of Macross.

However, seeing how you have a track record of reading too much into something and then forcing some kind of a belief system onto us, allow me to slightly enlighten you why laughter as a claim for affection might not do you any good.

Kawamori history? I'm not gauging the amount of laughter, I'm merely pointing out that this is the happiest state Alto has been in the entire 12 episode. Sky + Ranka. If you want to pretend his feelings doesn't matter, then be my guest. We got a stronger implication later anyway.