(L) Noragami

[shmaster]

Stealing money for food and shelter? Hell no, he did it because of the self-pity that had build up from the situation he was in. "I deserve this an that because I am so unfortunate" sums up what he is doing. Since food and shelter is not what Yuikne truly want, which is why he was never satisfied no matter how much he take. (Yato know this too, and he has no excuse for doing so little about it).
Yukine being dead actually puts him in a position worse than any circumstances we may had in real life. Because he is stuck being dead and can't have the normal life he really wanted anymore, thus it is impossible to eliminate the very cause of his self-pity. This is also why he went ballistic when he no longer can run away from this truth and is pretty much forced to give up. (This also what Yato should have done in day 1, not dragging it until this episode. A dead cannot be helped unless the person fully renounce his life).

Yato? Not a bad person? Yeah, he is capable of sympathy toward his Shinki, but that has nothing to do with why I believe he is a bad person. I believe he is a bad person because of his terrible out look at his life and his irresponsible behaviors.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

As a manga reader you should know why a certain part of this is invalid.
It comes down to the same point I already tried to not mention when answering Shadow, you should have an idea what I refer to though.

I am not a manga reader, but I must say that this is valid anyway ONLY if the anime decides to stick with the manga - which from what I understand it already is not doing any more, right? The anime has to stand for itself.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Stealing money for food and shelter? Hell no, he did it because of the self-pity that had build up from the situation he was in. "I deserve this an that because I am so unfortunate" sums up what he is doing.

We agree at least on that then.

Originally Posted by shmaster

Yukine being dead actually puts him in a position worse than any circumstances we may had in real life. Because he is stuck being dead and can't have the normal life he really wanted anymore, thus it is impossible to eliminate the very cause of his self-pity. This is also why he went ballistic when he no longer can run away from this truth and is pretty much forced to give up. (This also what Yato should have done in day 1, not dragging it until this episode. A dead cannot be helped unless the person fully renounce his life).

Yato's situation isn't really much better though (see below)

Originally Posted by shmaster

Yato? Not a bad person? Yeah, he is capable of sympathy toward his Shinki, but that has nothing to do with why I believe he is a bad person. I believe he is a bad person because of his terrible out look at his life and his irresponsible behaviors.

He might not be a good person or role model either, but he is not the bad person people put him as to.
Yukine gets every pitty and doubt in his favor while people obviously overlook how Yato is actually in the very same situation Yukine is, and notably a lot longer than said person.
The other thing is that Yato is supposed to be a war god. War is by its definition not fair to the people that get caught up in it.
So you can't really go out and say 'Yato is bad but poor Yukine is just a victim of circumstances', as Yato would make Yato just as much a victim of circumstance as Yukine.
He was born a minor god, who had to take Missions he might not have liked himself just in order to not get completely forgotten. - If he ever had a shrine in the past it was probably not very big either and has fallen to dust a long time ago.
And please not here that being completely forgotten is seemingly equal to 'death'.

Then all of his Regalia left him one after another, the only one who seems to be ready to stick with him is the stray who we don't even know why she even became one.
(Considering how she always appears around Yato I guess it was because the latter sent her away though.)

So please explain how Yato's situation is any different from Yukine's. In fact he had to cope with it for centuries ind will still have to cope for it until he is completely forgotten.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I am not a manga reader, but I must say that this is valid anyway ONLY if the anime decides to stick with the manga - which from what I understand it already is not doing any more, right? The anime has to stand for itself.

They still follow the story, they just cut some scenes, and made minor changes to make sure those changes don't make it totally random (like Mayu's added complaints). Other than that it still sticks with the Manga.

What got changed here is imho minor and nothing comparable with what has been done to Arpreggio.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

They still follow the story, they just cut some scenes, and made minor changes to make sure those changes don't make it totally random (like Mayu's added complaints). Other than that it still sticks with the Manga.

What got changed here is imho minor and nothing comparable with what has been done to Arpreggio.

Oh, I see. I had gotten the impression that the guy that appeared next to Nora an episode ago was an anime-only character though.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Oh, I see. I had gotten the impression that the guy that appeared next to Nora an episode ago was an anime-only character though.

It is an anime only character, that doesn't mean that the anime won't follow the Manga though.
TbH if I wouldn't have been told otherwise a few pages ago I would still think he is another character that had a cameo prior to his actual appearance.

[Galaxian]

The scene between Kofuku and Bishamonten happens a bit later in the manga, where it was a bit more tense since she wasn't just standing up to Bisha, but also covering for Yukine and Hyori that were hiding in her house.

And about the character with Nora...

Spoiler:

Isn't he suppose to be Kuga?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Many answers after yours show that many viewers perceive Yukine as the one who's at fault, which proves my point. Even though you may not perceive it like this, the show is fundamentally blaming Yukine more and more for what happens (he even stole charity money, you don't fall much lower than that!). Even this episode, the contrast was between the living kid who handled his own problems "well" and Yukine who instead is falling victim to them.

You're contradicting yourself now.

First you want to say that it's Yato's fault Yukine is the way he is, and now you're telling me it is actually Yukine's fault?

Don't you think it's a little too convenient how you get to put your stakes in the accurate view that Yukine is a victim and also claim that the show is trying to tell you the exact opposite? That's a pretty tall suggestion.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

As for the rest. If someone asks you for help against bullies and your answer is putting a cardboard cutter in their hands, I'd say your suggestion is very clear. The whole "crossing the line" thing was never there to begin with. If the boy was inclined to violence, do you think he wouldn't have managed to find a kitchen knife or something by himself? And would you consider a bullying story that ends with a stabbing a well solved conflict? Not at all. The boy was never violent, he just came close to it because he was basically pushed into it. That had nothing to do with actually helping him. Yato handled the situation terribly, and the thing didn't end in tragedy just because of a lucky chance. Had the guy been a bit more distressed/incline to act crazy that day, it would have been a tragedy (plus having given a cutter to his enemy as well he might as well have been the one ending up stabbed, usually bullies are more physically capable than their victims).

So what did he teach him? "Never resort to violence"? He was maybe entertaining thoughts of hurting those who hurt him, but who wouldn't in his situation? That's what I call victim blaming. It's not even about "oh, there are ghosts who feed on his desperation yadda yadda". What I'm questioning is the message the writer is trying to convey here through the way this world is constructed, INCLUDING the presence and behaviour of ghosts. If someone is suicidal, he needs to snap out of it because he should realize how valuable life is (that's what the comparison to Shinkis - i.e. dead people means), otherwise HE's the one at fault! Not those who put too much pressure on him, or pushed him to desperation. It's him. It's not that different from the Catholic view that committing suicide sends you to Hell because you've lost faith in God.

I'm not going through this again. For the last time, the only one making bold assertions is you.

The show is not interested in changing the audience's views, and it never attempted such a thing. What it is trying to do is show how the characters think. If you disagree with how Yato thinks, good. You should. But don't play the victim as if this show is trying to indoctrinate you with a certain line of thinking.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

About Yato's treatment of Yukine - it's straight out awful. Again, this is part of his character, and Hiyori even pointed it out when he told him to stop treating Yukine like an object, but still. Telling Yukine to stop whining and do his part is like telling to Shinji in Evangelion "get in the fucking robot!". Yes, it's what we want to see because it'll lead to some cool action scenes, but honestly, realistically, what would a teenager in their respective situations do? Yukine is in a fucking nightmare right now. It's literally a worse-than-death, and-I-must-scream kind of fate. He might as well have preferred to have a ghost eat him and just be done with it. If Yato showed some sympathy and friendship towards him, guess what, he might even enjoy it. More importantly, looking at the other gods and how they live well and in harmony together with their Shinkis isn't helping. It's like having an abusive parent and being surrounded by happy families. How would THAT make you feel?

Of course this would all be pretty legitimate, if the show didn't try to make us sympathize with Yato. Which I honestly can't do - he's a dick and deserves fully what he's getting.

And there you go again. Isn't it a little too convenient for you to think your views on Yato's integrity have nothing to do with the show's direction, as if that conclusion you arrived at was the complete opposite of what the writer intended to convey?

FYI, when Hiyori was carrying Yato away, the only person she blamed was herself for not being able to prevent what just happened.

How does this translate to the show blaming Yukine?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

So please explain how Yato's situation is any different from Yukine's. In fact he had to cope with it for centuries ind will still have to cope for it until he is completely forgotten.

Lets bring this to private chat as this'll involve tons of Manga spoiler.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Shadow, I honestly don't see why are you so upset in the first place. I got the impression that the show tries to make us sympathize with Yato. It's subjective. I'm not the only one who feels like this, it's not that uncanny. I may be wrong. To me, the very way this world is built (with Phantoms attaching themselves to people in despair etc. etc.) is pointing at those people being somehow "wrong", as seen in the example of this episode with the kid who instead reacted "correctly" to the bullying.

It's my impression. That's it. Nothing short of asking the authors will actually tell us what their intentions were. And I'm not even saying I dislike the show, I'm JUST saying I feel this trend and it annoys me a bit. End of the story. You don't feel it, good for you, but don't overreact. I'm honestly tired of flaming up pointless internet arguments over stupid stuff like this. I like discussing this and other series, but if it always has to end up like this then I'd rather stop doing it than having to argue endlessly to just defend the fact that I am allowed to have, y'know, an opinion (not even a very strong one, nor one that ostensibly goes against all evidence, as something stupid like "Noragami has terrible art" would be).

[kuromitsu]

^What Gan_HOPE326 said.

I feel the exact same way, and that's why I stayed out of the discussion here and elsewhere (some people's complete lack of empathy toward Yukine rubs me the wrong way).

[Gan_HOPE326]

And speaking of Yukine's condition... this is not anime-related but it made me think of Noragami:

[Preciize]

I can somewhat understand the way that Yukine acts, but for Yato's sake, Yato should've looked for another shinki after realizing that Yukine would cause loads of problems for him. After finding a suitable shinki, he could cut ties with Yukine and Yukine could work for the older god (with the number of female servants) and live a better life. But I guess then Yukine wouldn't learn the hard way, develop, and mature. But meh, just my two cents.

Feeling that Bishamon or Nora will save Yato next episode (even though Bishamon supposedly hates him).

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Preciize

I can somewhat understand the way that Yukine acts, but for Yato's sake, Yato should've looked for another shinki after realizing that Yukine would cause loads of problems for him. After finding a suitable shinki, he could cut ties with Yukine and Yukine could work for the older god (with the number of female servants) and live a better life. But I guess then Yukine wouldn't learn the hard way, develop, and mature. But meh, just my two cents.

Maybe there's something we don't know? For example, a 'grace period' before a God can release a Shinki? Or a limited number of Shinki he can create, and he topped that with Yukine? I always thought that has to be the case and is going to be revealed sooner or later, because otherwise there would be no explanation. Yes, there's the "Yukine seems to be a potentially very powerful Shinki" thing, but power is nothing if it's not under control. There's the possibility that Yato is afraid of Yukine getting out of control as a ronin - either becoming a Phantom, or worse, going to help Bishamon and coming back to bite him in the ass - but he doesn't seem to plan that much ahead. And if it's just out of some sort of affection for Yukine, then he's an idiot 'cos he's just continuously making it worse for both of them.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Shadow, I honestly don't see why are you so upset in the first place. I got the impression that the show tries to make us sympathize with Yato. It's subjective. I'm not the only one who feels like this, it's not that uncanny. I may be wrong. To me, the very way this world is built (with Phantoms attaching themselves to people in despair etc. etc.) is pointing at those people being somehow "wrong", as seen in the example of this episode with the kid who instead reacted "correctly" to the bullying.

It's my impression. That's it. Nothing short of asking the authors will actually tell us what their intentions were. And I'm not even saying I dislike the show, I'm JUST saying I feel this trend and it annoys me a bit. End of the story. You don't feel it, good for you, but don't overreact. I'm honestly tired of flaming up pointless internet arguments over stupid stuff like this. I like discussing this and other series, but if it always has to end up like this then I'd rather stop doing it than having to argue endlessly to just defend the fact that I am allowed to have, y'know, an opinion (not even a very strong one, nor one that ostensibly goes against all evidence, as something stupid like "Noragami has terrible art" would be).

Because I see people speaking to me as if somehow disagreeing with their interpretation of the events implies I support Yato giving Manabu a knife and that Yukine deserves no sympathy, and we should "agree to disagree" on that point.

That's not just an "opinion", that's asserting what someone else's opinion is. I'm trying to stop people from turning me into a straw man.

[King Lycan]

Yukine is more annoying than Raki never thought that was possible. But he is like 13 or something Yato should have talked to him or something now he's in a bind. I mean he's pretty old he ought know a few things about psychology

[Preciize]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Maybe there's something we don't know? For example, a 'grace period' before a God can release a Shinki? Or a limited number of Shinki he can create, and he topped that with Yukine? I always thought that has to be the case and is going to be revealed sooner or later, because otherwise there would be no explanation. Yes, there's the "Yukine seems to be a potentially very powerful Shinki" thing, but power is nothing if it's not under control. There's the possibility that Yato is afraid of Yukine getting out of control as a ronin - either becoming a Phantom, or worse, going to help Bishamon and coming back to bite him in the ass - but he doesn't seem to plan that much ahead. And if it's just out of some sort of affection for Yukine, then he's an idiot 'cos he's just continuously making it worse for both of them.

Well, in the first episode he released the female shinki without a problem, plus there hasn't really been any hints towards limitations or restrictions. The whole "being afraid of what could happen if he lets Yukine go" is a possibility. But I really think Yato's biggest reason for keeping Yukine is that he empathizes with Yukine and wants to give him a chance. I basically see it as Yato used to be ruthless and violent (killed people, Bishamon's shinki, etc.) and now is trying to change and become a better individual. Remember, he can always turn to Nora if he wants to. I think he refuses to because Nora reminds him of his old self.

[ookamigirl]

Cherry blossoms and high school enrollment.
It was fun watching Yato body snatch her.
He was totally rampaging around school.
Poor Hiyori ^^"
That "joke" was so not funny to her.
The soccer game was epic!
Yato totally has a talent for it.
Very fun OVA ^^

[MisaoFan]

Spoiler for Episode 9:

Yukine's screams were too much for me to handle, aside from that it was a great climax to the conflict between him and Yato. It seems the way they suffered the same curse was erased thanks to the ritual and Hiyori hugging them is technically a friendly reunion to them. Bones really brings amazing questions concerning the bond between a man and the weapon they are connected each other though it seems the villain will play a bigger role in the future episodes just like the female ghost. I'm enjoying a lot more of it recently than I thought out to be and the anime original route wasn't actually that bad unless it goes down the road later.

[sikvod00]

So I assume that's the end of the Yukine arc. Overall, what did everyone think of it? My hope is that the final takeaway wasn't something as simple as "If Yukine had not been a whiny, ungrateful douche none of this would have happened. Oh, and Yato is a saint for tolerating him." Maybe I misinterpreted something, but it definitely felt like that sometimes. That's the danger of having a character who isn't immediately likable and sticking them in a relationship dynamic. The audience is going to overwhelmingly prefer one over the other. Hiyori was certainly the highlight for me in this episode. Although Yato and Yukine were enduring excruciating physical pain, I believe she was being tortured mentally. Having people you care about suffer while you helplessly look on is an awful feeling. It was very fitting that Hiyori was ultimately the one responsible for saving them, because she had been caught in the middle of their dysfunctional relationship since the beginning.

[Kyouka]

so i started watching epiosde 9 and i was like whoa did it skip a episode?
then i realized i forgot to watch episode 8 gosh jolly being busy irl sucks hehe