2013-07-08, 05:35 | Link #32484 |
100Shots100Hits LuluLaLu
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So i watched the 9 hour youtube video and now I'm heavily leaning towards Rosatrice theory despite the fact that there are plenty of holes in it. Fact is i hated Yasu/Shannon theory since it's inception. I still find it absolutely stupid how Yasu is switching between multiple personas and killing them off one by one.
Hopefully a few years from now Ryukishi will reveal the truth in an episode or something.
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Last edited by Poetic Justice; 2013-07-08 at 05:48. |
2013-07-08, 06:19 | Link #32485 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Urgh, yeah that video has been discussed to death here. You wont find many that subscribe to what it proposes in here though.
e-Yes, Shkanon is dumb, but you simply cannot discard it as the truth given everything that happened in the stories and Our Confessions. They are part of the "reality" of the stories. Whether or not it actually happened in Prime is something else entirely. The only way I would think that Shkanon wasnt an actual thing was trough Wave theory as one of the possible paths that was collapsed at one point the story and RK07 didn't really do a good job explaining quantum mechanics in the story to justify using it. |
2013-07-08, 07:34 | Link #32488 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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It's good when people put effort into making a case for alternatives, though. Knownnomore's theories may be full of gaping holes and fail to provide a credible alternative, but he tried, as a good goat should. 9 hour videos are impressive! It's just, well. In terms of trying to get a theory taken seriously, Shkanontrice may be ridiculous, but Rosatrice is much more ridiculous, and Rosatrice is contrary to Ryukishi's intentions to boot. Huh, that sounds interesting. It'd be fun if someone made up a more comprehensive Umineko wave collapse Shkanon theory. Even if Ryukishi didn't lay the groundwork well enough for it. |
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2013-07-08, 08:36 | Link #32489 |
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Of course that theory can be dismissed out of hand simply for cherry-picking its "facts," particularly from ep7 and ep8. Rosa does make a more compelling culprit than many by nature, but the fact of the matter is that there's just very little to actually suggest she has the necessary background to do what is done to the victims after death. It also has trouble accounting for the truth of Shkanon, which we pretty much have to accept even if we don't like it as a culprit theory.
Essentially a coherent Rosatrice theory would have to:
But hey, if you don't like the answer, write a nine-hour video or fan episode about it. He kinda left the door open for that in Dawn. Then got mad about it later I guess, for some reason.
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2013-07-08, 12:01 | Link #32490 | |
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1. Kyrie somehow found out by herself (although I'd expect her reaction to be more along the lines of "You not only dumped me but also stole my baby?!?" Maybe she has accepted it...) 2. Battler returning home was one of the conditions for her hell to end (maybe because Rudolf and Ange didn't consider their family complete without him there? Doesn't sound like hell to me) 3. "Battler will die here, we'll also get rid of our debt and the three of us will live happily ever after~" And then there's of course 4. Ryukishi got confused, but I promised myself I wouldn't think that again after I found out Shannon starting to work at Rokkenjima 10 years earlier wasn't a mistake. Either way now I know I didn't misunderstand something simple, thanks |
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2013-07-08, 19:30 | Link #32493 | ||
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If Bern and Featherine know the undisputed truth at the end of EP7, then what the hell is EP8 about, besides paying off the rest of Ryukishi07's mortgage? |
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2013-07-08, 21:51 | Link #32494 | |
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Thematically, most everything is basically wrapped up. You can not like it (and I don't, personally), but the intent of the author seems clear enough and I can't think of a single reason why the official position cannot be true. It would take an outright contradiction of that nature to really constitute a fatal flaw in the original intention. Further, even if the original intent appears to fail, that's not proof of deliberate concealment of higher knowledge. That's an easy trap to fall into, but there's no rational reason to assume that absent considerable evidence that there is such knowledge present. Notably, the ending of the story has to be explained in the language of the "hidden story," and wrap it up properly. Otherwise you've just claimed there's another, hidden answer that's wrapped up in an even worse manner than the fake "surface" one. That is, you're saying not merely that the story ends badly, but that it's unworkably pretentious and ends badly.
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2013-07-08, 23:06 | Link #32495 | |
100Shots100Hits LuluLaLu
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2013-07-09, 03:00 | Link #32496 | |
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2013-07-09, 06:23 | Link #32497 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Its how the "author" of the stories actually feels about it. Or in case of RK07 its a backhanded trick to try and deflect suspicion from them since by his own admission the servants were getting lots of suspicion at the time. |
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2013-07-09, 07:27 | Link #32498 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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As I've said before, the arguments used by Rosatrice supporters to claim that Shkanontrice is "impossible" are all built on the assumption that the red truth must be taken absolutely literally, and that terms like 'people' must have a single consistent definition that applies to every single red statement made throughout the series. KNM's entire video series is built on this assumption, but I really don't know where it comes from. There's no reason to think that Ryukishi is particularly concerned with being absolutely logically consistent, and the whole point of a lot of Chiru was that he wants the readers to look for the bigger picture, the "heart", rather than becoming preoccupied with little details in closed room puzzles and coming to clear, unambiguous definitions for everything.
I honestly don't understand what it is people even see in Rosatrice in the first place. Even if they do believe that Shkanontrice is "full of holes", by the same standards Rosatrice must be as well. Given a choice between two explanations that are full of holes, it would make much more sense to take the one that's thematically consistent and makes for a much better story, as well as a much more interesting and three-dimensional culprit. But I think the source of a lot of this confusion is probably simply that a lot of Rosatrice supporters just don't remember the series that well when they watch KNM's videos, and have to rely on his own extremely biased summaries to remind them of the details. To anyone who seriously believes in Rosatrice, I'd ask them to just reread the second half of EP7 with KNM's theory in mind. I genuinely feel that it would be completely impossible for anyone to do that and come out of it at the end still thinking that Rosatrice makes any sense. |
2013-07-09, 08:12 | Link #32499 |
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On the positive note it seems that EP 8 manga version is getting even more awesome as it looks like the goats, while facing Dlanor and Will, are giving more theories than just the ones we got in the visual novel. The pictures implies the goat tried to deal with some mysteries in... Ep 2 I think as there's Battler with Rosa facing Natsuhi's door all covered in paint and there's also the chapel door closed with a key. There's also Shannon's death always in Ep 2. Maybe there's Ep 1 as there's a hand picking up or placing down a letter behind Jessica and Battler's back, and I think they talk about who gave Maria the umbrella. Also a bunch of theories on Ep 3 and 4 I think, expecially Nanjo's death in Ep 3 and Kumasawa's and Gohda's death in Ep 4?
At least those are the pictures shown although I can't read the dialogues and some other pictures aren't really clear. Anyway I'm pretty excited with it as it could provide even more hints! Though Dlanor and Will shot down all the theories, of course so hints are likely solely on what's wrong, not on what's right... but well, I seem to remember I wasn't the only one who wanted to see the goats trying to address the mysteries in Ep 8, was I? |
2013-07-09, 08:36 | Link #32500 | |
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Certainly you could argue that amnesia and killing off a character you're portraying are different, and I'd agree with you, but it's not a hole if we look at what the author was claiming. It's just a very poorly-defined exploit of a rule nobody knew existed because he didn't tell us first. The simpler explanation for that is bad writing to cover up something that was more obvious than he thought it was going to be. Now I would ask you, which is more reasonable: That he did this deliberately despite almost exclusively providing evidence, particularly in Chiru, of Shkanon/Yasu as the core of Beatrice solely to mislead you from the "real truth;" or that he just isn't a very good writer and had to cheat to temporarily deflect suspicion from a theory that people were pretty much aware of as early as ep2? Shkanon wasn't hated so much because it wasn't supported by anything as because people didn't want it to be true, because it appeared blatantly obvious that it was possible from the outset of the story and seemed a phenomenally stupid idea (and still is, but what can you do at this point?).
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