[Manga] Naruto Chapter 650 Discussion Thread

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You know how Orochimaru behaves sometimes. Even if you say that Orochimaru still thinks of the alliance as his enemies it is logical to help them because the enemy of my enemy is a friend, and right now stopping Tobito/Madara is more important for him. He brought back Tsunade and the kages when they were almost dead, why wouldn't he use edo tensei if he wants to..

And why would he want to? Orochimaru brought back four legendary ninjas who are quite close to their full strength and is fighting with the entire ninja alliance. What unique ability, insight or technique does Jiraiya possess, that necessitates Orochimaru summoning him for, that neither the past/present Kages , or Naruto and Sasuke cannot compensate? Its also worth noting that Oro considered himself (and perhaps was) superior to Jiraiya.

Also to him Jiraiya meant more than the 3rd or Tsunade, the author even showed us a long time ago how Jiraiya and Orochimaru were like Naruto and Sasuke, maybe Kishi wants to show us this similarity too after he showed us the "new sannins" a few chapters ago

Yes, and that was a long time ago. What significance does that parallel have in context of this fight? Is Jiraiya fawning over acknowledging Naruto really that important to waste more time on, especially considering we've already been given these comparisons and flashbacks before? Of course, I'm guessing the fanservice is the reason you want Jiraiya brought back at this point since there is really not much else his prescence can contribute to the plot here; I guess minor things like the plot making sense pale in comparison to more fanservice :/

[milan kyuubi]

Jiraiya can use sage mode. I think that's enough of a reason on it's own.

[HasuMasu]

Kisame was a cool dude.

[milan kyuubi]

If only this could happen...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

Of course, I'm guessing the fanservice is the reason you want Jiraiya brought back at this point since there is really not much else his prescence can contribute to the plot here; I guess minor things like the plot making sense pale in comparison to more fanservice :/

fanservice and the complete destruction of orochimaru's character. if he brings jiraiya back just to have fun with his old buddy and let him see how far naruto has come then i think i'd prefer orochimaru to just get killed off panel and never be in the manga again

"aren't we having fun my former sensei and teammate? thanks for forgetting about those times i tried to kill you, destroy the village, torture innocents, kidnap villagers, and just overall acted like an evil double-crossing pedophile. that's all forgiven based on the last 15 minutes right?"

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Jiraiya can use sage mode. I think that's enough of a reason on it's own.

Lets not kid ourselves, Jiraiya would probably be no more powerful than one of the 5 kages at best, and the author has made their place in this battle quite apparent; the rear.This is clearly shaping up to be Naruto and Sasuke's moment(even Hashirama and Madara are playing the side), so I can see only one reason why people would want Oro to bring Jiraiya back, and sorry, but I don't think watching Jiraiya kiss Naruto's ass is worth ruining his epic death scene for :/

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

fanservice and the complete destruction of orochimaru's character. if he brings jiraiya back just to have fun with his old buddy and let him see how far naruto has come then i think i'd prefer orochimaru to just get killed off panel and never be in the manga again

I'd rather see Orochimaru use sage mode himself, considering he already had the training, and now finally has a body that should be strong enough to sustain the exertion. Theoretically, all he'd have to do is create a larger amount of senjutsu chakra (as he's done many times to a lesser degree) and maintain it inside his own body, instead of placing it in someone else as a cursed seal. I doubt either scenario will happen though, as its apparent that this is Naruto and Sasuke's moment; with some help probably...

"aren't we having fun my former sensei and teammate? thanks for forgetting about those times i tried to kill you, destroy the village, torture innocents, kidnap villagers, and just overall acted like an evil double-crossing pedophile. that's all forgiven based on the last 15 minutes right?"

Were you against him saving Tsunade?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I'd rather see Orochimaru use sage mode himself, considering he already had the training, and now finally has a body that should be strong enough to sustain the exertion

yea, that'd be awesome for sure. i'm basically just holding my breath until orochimaru stabs everyone in the back, but in the meantime, it's been pretty brutal. what he's done has made no sense and everyone trusting him makes no sense

Were you against him saving Tsunade?

i thought it would happen, but yea, i'm against it 100%. the orochimaru i know would have let them die and then edo-tensei'd them back if needed for his plans

[Shay]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea, that'd be awesome for sure. i'm basically just holding my breath until orochimaru stabs everyone in the back, but in the meantime, it's been pretty brutal. what he's done has made no sense and everyone trusting him makes no sense

i thought it would happen, but yea, i'm against it 100%. the orochimaru i know would have let them die and then edo-tensei'd them back if needed for his plans

True that.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea, that'd be awesome for sure. i'm basically just holding my breath until orochimaru stabs everyone in the back, but in the meantime, it's been pretty brutal. what he's done has made no sense and everyone trusting him makes no sense

i thought it would happen, but yea, i'm against it 100%. the orochimaru i know would have let them die and then edo-tensei'd them back if needed for his plans

breathe itachi-san lol…that may not happen during this war

Sandaime is quite skeptical of orochimaru i think. he has asked roughly three times what his intentions are...obito is a pretty real threat right now; big enough to squash all kinds of differences at this point. so for now, a temp alliance with oro makes some sense at least to me.


besides, IT has prolly already started anyways with Kakashi being the only one unaffected right now...

[Ulquiorra]

IT hasn't started yet. The flower hasn't bloomed.

Orochimaru is following Sasuke and doesn't really have an agenda of his own. He said he is just following which way the wind is blowing with Sasuke. Now you can argue that ruins the devious Orochimaru character, but he shouldn't even have been brought back in the first place.

When Sasuke betrays everyone, Orochimaru will then have a reason to do something.

[normp571]

Originally Posted by Masuzu

I'm projecting the end at some time in 2015-2016.


Was Katsuyu's home base mentioned before now? I think this is the first time I heard it.

Yeah, along with the home of the toads, and snakes summonings.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

except that sasuke only kills bad guys with the exception of some nameless/faceless samurai. orochimaru was portrayed as pure evil, experimenting, torturing and even bringing the dead back to life. sasuke has always had some sort of saving grace. even naruto has always acknowledged it, agreeing with sasuke's reasoning most of the time

Two things:
1, The only reason for Sasuke not killing masses is that Kishi wants his hands clean when the time comes for him to join Naruto in the big "happy ending". So that's plot a shield.
2, You don't know what person the young Orochi (around the age of current Sasuke) was, how slowly or fast he descended into the 100% evil state. What we know is that Jiraiya tried to "save" him and failed. But of course i remember one point: when Nagato and his friends tired to get food, at that time Orochi was already completely disillusioned with the ninja world, he suggested to kill the children to avoid all the suffering they would endure living their miserable life. However i had the impression that Orochi at that time was not yet a mass murderer, he was just beginning to think that way. And he was already older than Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

no i think there is more story to be told...im still looking for the Uzumaki clan

I hoped that the Uzumaki could have a direct connection to the sage of 6 paths, that would have explained why is Naruto such a special host (for example in kyuubi mode he does not transform into the beast body but has a unique chakra cloak, why are trees growing when Naruto's chakra comes in contact with Zetsu/Hashirama trees, why are the signs of the sage of 6 paths on Naruto when he uses kyuubi mode) and why have the Uzumaki such special abilities (the ability to contain a tailed beast and control it) and knowledge (secret sealing jutsu where they can even summon a death god and have very special magic masks, powerful magic artifacts of the manga often connected to the sage of 6 paths).
So who knows, maybe there is still something very special that the story will tell us. I would at least expect an explanation telling us that either Naruto is special or that the Kyuubi is special among the 9.
But you could think of the Uzumaki story being told and connected to the story of sage mode through the Sage of 6 paths. As i mentioned above there are hints that Naruto can be connected to the Sage through his Uzumaki heritage. But we also see how sage mode is the only thing that can be used against Tobito, we know now that natural energy is what also powers the 10-tails, and the 10-tails was sealed inside the Sage just like now it's sealed inside Tobito.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

If only this could happen...

I think this will happen after a timeskip when we learn she has learned Sage mode in the slug forest, except that she will tell to Naruto and Sasuke to stop their stupid quarreling or she will beat them to death

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

I think we've had more than our fair share of symbolism and comparisons of Naruto to Minato and Hashirama...
Naruto has been glorified and glorified ...
I've always been of the opinion that Kishimoto has taken the "easy" way out
...
and imo it feels kind of cheap.

I didn't say i liked these things, i just made a guess based what we have seen so far. I also complained about lot of this stuff, especially how Naruto and to a lesser extent even Sasuke are always extremely lucky, Kishi simply avoids to put them into impossible situations or situations where they can't possibly have any good choices. Just look at how very conveniently each and every ninja who's still alive can see and feel Naruto's mind, this is a cheap trick so that they will later accept Naruto as a leader who can unite the world and end the ninja wars and hatred. Naruto won't have to talk to them, they'll just go home and spread the word, practically Naruto will get huge propaganda for free I guess that's what we can call a "cheap" solution.
So looking at all this i don't see why Jiraiya being summoned would stand out. I mean just look at how lame it was that the fastest guy on the battlefield was conveniently caught by a tree (how the fuck can a tree be grow faster than Naruto's speed...) just so that "grandpa" Sarutobi could save him and they could have a "happy family" moment.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Shay

I forgot. Is there any reason why Jirairya hasn't joined the party?

Fell into the sea, Kabuto can't get any DNA samples.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea, that'd be awesome for sure. i'm basically just holding my breath until orochimaru stabs everyone in the back, but in the meantime, it's been pretty brutal. what he's done has made no sense and everyone trusting him makes no sense

Here's the amusing thing about Orochimaru though: the more "friendly" he seems/acts usually indicates how sinister his actual underlying intentions are, and I'd even dare say that during some of his most sinister deeds is when he has seemed the most benign, wearing a smile.

I have to say I don't think Oro has really changed as much as some people suspect. Rather, he seems to be taking a relatively passive role and is simply observing whats transpiring; and he'd be a fool not to lend a hand in stopping Obito's plans. His goal has mostly been about obtaining great knowledge, wisdom, and power and I see no real evidence that this has changed. He is smart enough to know that he isn't powerful enough to make any major moves towards that end at this point, but that doesn't mean he has nothing up his sleeve.

As for trusting him, there are some skeptical people (i.e. the slug, the 3rd), but there is a major fight going on, and I guess people are simply accepting help where they can get it. It doesn't mean they're friends, it just means they'll cooperate for to save the world.

[DKN117]

Really, I think Orochimaru has what Tropers call "Blue and Orange Morality".

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

IT hasn't started yet. The flower hasn't bloomed.

true. and i didnt mean for that sound like i was speaking with absolute certainty. the likelihood of IT being active now is closer to zero however...

there is a point in the story where it could have been initiated. i mean, tobi stole the barrel with the nine tails chakra from the battlefield in 537. aside from the fact we see like a million shots of the full moon for the next few chapters, there arent any obvious hints anything has happened. but i do wonder why go through the trouble of engaging the enemy when he had what he needed. unless its like kakashi says and he just wants to push naruto to see if makes a different decision or stays the course.

of course im just toying with speculation, but there really was no reason for him to engage naruto

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

breathe itachi-san lol…that may not happen during this war

Sandaime is quite skeptical of orochimaru i think. he has asked roughly three times what his intentions are...obito is a pretty real threat right now; big enough to squash all kinds of differences at this point. so for now, a temp alliance with oro makes some sense at least to me.

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

Here's the amusing thing about Orochimaru though: the more "friendly" he seems/acts usually indicates how sinister his actual underlying intentions are, and I'd even dare say that during some of his most sinister deeds is when he has seemed the most benign, wearing a smile.

I have to say I don't think Oro has really changed as much as some people suspect. Rather, he seems to be taking a relatively passive role and is simply observing whats transpiring; and he'd be a fool not to lend a hand in stopping Obito's plans. His goal has mostly been about obtaining great knowledge, wisdom, and power and I see no real evidence that this has changed. He is smart enough to know that he isn't powerful enough to make any major moves towards that end at this point, but that doesn't mean he has nothing up his sleeve.

As for trusting him, there are some skeptical people (i.e. the slug, the 3rd), but there is a major fight going on, and I guess people are simply accepting help where they can get it. It doesn't mean they're friends, it just means they'll cooperate for to save the world.

yea. you guys are right and i think the same about it. i'd just rather be a pessimist at this point and then be happily surprised as opposed to assuming this is true and getting disappointed.

i still think him saving the kages is bs though. since madara could beat all 5 at once then why resurrect them? the only 'good' answer is for inspiration to the army which is not how orochimaru operates. so even if it somehow pans out to be all part of an elaborate scheme of his i still dont like that part because his character doesn't or shouldn't think that way. he doesn't think about inspiring people. he thinks about manipulating, forcing and controlling people. the other reason would be for sympathy or old friendship ties to tsunade which is even worse bs than the first reason

[Artimus_Prime]

(kakashi is a descendant of tobirama)

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea. you guys are right and i think the same about it. i'd just rather be a pessimist at this point and then be happily surprised as opposed to assuming this is true and getting disappointed.

fair enough

[james0246]

As far as I know there is a new chapter this week, so here's the new thread. Please move all relevant discussion to the new thread.