Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

That's not quite the same since it was only a single viewing, and not constantly reading or watching an ongoing series that he hates. He's free to argue why he didn't think it was good, Demi., and comparing him to Sansker and his behavior is an insult. That's beneath you.

Who watches something they hate, and then sticks around to complain every single day? He has the most posts in this thread, and the only reason I have the second most posts--is because I'm for the large part replying to his posts. Nothings changed from the time he's watched it until now. Why do the same opinions he's just posted the day before need to be mentioned again? He's being a hater, not a critic. Neither are leaving the respective areas that they so loathe. This is better than Sankster...why?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Who watches something they hate, and then sticks around to complain every single day? He has the most posts in this thread, and the only reason I have the second most posts--is because I'm for the large part replying to his posts. Nothings changed from the time he's watched it until now. Why do the same opinions he's just posted the day before need to be mentioned again? He's being a hater, not a critic. Neither are leaving the respective areas that they so loathe. This is better than Sankster...why?

He's allowed to defend his argument on the movie just as you are. He feels his points have merit and is thus contending them in the debate, and while he's certainly getting worked up about it, it's no different than what you do whenever someone criticizes Fate. Nanya's arguments hold better than Sansker's because he's being consistent about his arguments and if someone does convince him that he's in the wrong, he acknowledges it, while Sansker constantly argues using falsehoods and opinions presented as objective fact, and changes the goalpost whenever he's proven wrong. I get the feeling that you're only seeing him as worse because Nanya feels some of the blame is because of Fate, something which your like of the character compels you to defend.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well Triple, I agree somewhat. It would be like people complaining that Aiko doesn't get enough screentime in True Tears.


However, I guess it's not so clearcut. I'll try to be fair and ask you to consider the Star Trek: TNG movies, which centered heavily around Picard and Data, and shafted the rest, as opposed to the original series Star Trek movies which involved most of the cast actively.

I don't recall thinking that any particular character was shafted in the TNG movies. I suppose Worf could have been given more badass stuff to do, but that's it. Picard and Data did have a bit more focus than the rest, but I felt the rest did Ok at least.

There's also the Clannad movie and OVAs where I felt the lack of supporting characters made it less entertaining overall, even if they weren't plot critical.

The Clannad OVAs were all about alternate romantic routes. Of course they lacked a lot of characters. The whole point of each one is to focus on a specific romance.

I present to you these thought experiments, just feel free to pick and choose. Consider movie versions of the following anime where the following happens:

Ok, I'll play this game. I take it you want my personal, subjective take on each one.

True Tears: Hiromi is minimized, but plot remains the same

Very weird and self-defeating given how True Tears' ends. I don't see anything comparable to this in the Nanoha movies though.

Ore no Imouto:
a.) Only Kirino, Kyousuke, and Kuroneko are involved
b.) Only Kirino and Kyousuke is involved, with the others being given token scenes
c.) The plot is marginally about Kirino, but Kuroneko gets an intrusive amount of screen time.

a) wouldn't surprise me. b) I'd personally hate, but it wouldn't surprise me. c) would lead me to do a victory dance.

Haruhi:
A.) The focus is exclusively on Yuki, with Haruhi making key apperances.

... Which is the Disappearance movie. And I loved that, lol.

B.) Mikuru doesn't appear, except as fanservice

This is different how?

C.) There is no Asakura

It would suck to lose a good theatrical villain. I'd probably knock a mark or two off of my Disappearance rating.

Monogatari:
A.) Only Hitagi gets screentime and it's now just primarily a romance

PARTY TIME!!!

B.) Shinobu is cut

I'd feel a bit sorry for her fans, I guess. Wouldn't effect me a whole lot.

C.) Nadeko and Mayoi are cut

I'd probably feel more comfortable going to the movie with friends now.

Kanon
A.) Only Ayu (actually this is most likely to happen if there was a movie)

I might not even watch it.

B.) Makoto and Shiori are written out

Makoto I could live without, but I'd feel sorry for her fans. I'd miss Shiori.

C.) Only Mai

AKA your dream Kanon film. And yes, it would rock.

Death Note: The investigation team gets almost no screentime, making it almost seen like it is investigator vs Kira

I could live with it. Death Note is Kira vs. L to me.

Madoka: It is now suddenly riddled with MadoHomu moments across the board

What? This isn't the plan for the third Madoka Magica movie?

In fact, I almost wrote this counter to Fate critics earlier on in this thread - If you think Fate's degree of focus in this movie is a bit much, wait until you see what Homura gets in the third Madoka Magica film.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

He's allowed to defend his argument on the movie just as you are. He feels his points have merit and is thus contending them in the debate, and while he's certainly getting worked up about it, it's no different than what you do whenever someone criticizes Fate. Nanya's arguments hold better than Sansker's because he's being consistent about his arguments and if someone does convince him that he's in the wrong, he acknowledges it, while Sansker constantly argues using falsehoods and opinions presented as objective fact, and changes the goalpost whenever he's proven wrong. I get the feeling that you're only seeing him as worse because Nanya feels some of the blame is because of Fate, something which your like of the character compels you to defend.

I don't post about why I liked the movie every day. In-fact, I don't even post about Fate until I see three or more pages full of "herpderp Fate steals all the screentime despite having equal screentime as Nanoha." He's adding nothing to the conversation, because it doesn't go anywhere with him. Someone pops in the thread and likes the movie, Nanya is there to be the buzzkill. And of course his opinions are consistent, they're basically copy/paste from his previous opinions. Yet why is this necessary? Nanya's mad whenever someone likes the movie, and feels the need to shitstorm on them.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In fact, I almost wrote this counter to Fate critics earlier on in this thread - If you think Fate's degree of focus in this movie is a bit much, wait until you see what Homura gets in the third Madoka Magica film.

This is assuming, of course, that the majority of Nanoha fans give a damn about Madoka. They don't exactly cater to the same kind of audience, given the radically different tones.

[Ruby Princess]

I haven't watched this movie, but since I crush on Demi I'll assume he's right.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Demi.

I don't post about why I liked the movie every day. In-fact, I don't even post about Fate until I see three or more pages of herpderp Fate steals all the screentime despite having equal screentime as Nanoha. He's adding nothing to the conversation, because it doesn't go anywhere with him. Someone pops in the thread and likes the movie, Nanya is there to be the buzzkill. And of course his opinions are consistent, they're basically copy/paste from his previous opinions. Yet why is this necessary? Nanya's mad whenever someone likes the movie, and feels the need to shitstorm on them.

Hey, you know what? You're more than welcome to contribute! Maybe if you did, you'd be seen as more than just "that guy who gets pissed off if someone doesn't like Fate", because that's pretty much all you do!





Yeah, something like that doesn't feel good, does it? It's insulting.





The thing is, Demi., is that forums WILL have debates when it talks about movies and such. You'll have to accept that fact. I'm not particularly happy with Nanya's behavior since he IS getting too worked up about it, but his arguments are fairly justified, especially with others just condemning him for not being a fan of a particular character, which Triple_R keeps painting some of us to be in some of his posts, same as you are at times.

Originally Posted by Ruby Princess

I haven't watched this movie, but since I crush on Demi I'll assume he's right.

If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation beyond baiting for the lulz, then don't start. Go watch the movie first.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Ruby Princess

I haven't watched this movie, but since I crush on Demi I'll assume he's right.

That's a terrible basis for an assumption.

[Triple_R]

Some of us are trying to add some levity into this pool of incessant negativity, guys. I think there's worse things that people like Ruby Princess can do...

[Nanya01]

Yeah, look, okay, I can't change what I've done, alright.

You want me to apologize for not liking the movie? Not going to happen.

Every time I pointed out things that could have been done to possibly make the movie better, either by cutting down on some screen time for NanoFate or Fate and letting some other stuff get in, I get hounded by everyone "No, no! You can't do that! You're hating on NanoFate, you killjoy!" even though I have flat out SAID that one thing I HATED was the LACK of Fate's BDH moment at the beginning of the movie and that her BDH moment at the end of the movie hurts BOTH Hayate AND Nanoha's awesome moment from canon.

Really, you want ONE character to have an awesome moment at the expense of two others?!

That doesn't strike me as a good thing.

Hell, I recently suggested writing Yuuno out completely so that the few seconds HE gets in the movie could have been used to give Lindy some combat time and making the movie better...

"No, you can't do that, otherwise all the Yuuno fans will get even more upset!"

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Hey, you know what? You're more than welcome to contribute! Maybe if you did, you'd be seen as more than just "that guy who gets pissed off if someone doesn't like Fate", because that's pretty much all you do!






Yeah, something like that doesn't feel good, does it? It's insulting.

That's not true. I have no issue with Keroko, who is the only one who outright admits he doesn't like Fate. I have an issue with false assumptions. And yes, claiming Fate has the most screen time in this movie is a false assumption. Do you realize how much of her battle time was cut to make room for the dream eater and her small talk with Lindy? And that's really the only aspect of solo time that she had. The rest were with other main characters.

The thing is, Demi., is that forums WILL have debates when it talks about movies and such. You'll have to accept that fact. I'm not particularly happy with Nanya's behavior since he IS getting too worked up about it, but his arguments are fairly justified, especially with others just condemning him for not being a fan of a particular character, which Triple_R keeps painting some of us to be in some of his posts, same as you are at times.

This isn't a debate. It's Nanya getting upset every time someone likes the movie, and then telling them why it's a bad movie. He even uses CAPS to get the point across. No one who likes the movie would want to stay in this environment.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Demi.

That's not true. I have no issue with Keroko, who is the only one who outright admits she doesn't like Fate.

So? You still get bent out of shape with him if he gets critical of Fate. You might not have a problem with Keroko as a person but you still don't like it if he doesn't share the same viewpoint on an aspect of Fate. This is the same thing.

Originally Posted by Demi.

This isn't a debate. It's Nanya getting upset every time someone likes the movie, and then telling them why it's a bad movie. He even uses CAPS to get the point across. No one who likes the movie would want to stay in this environment.

Then if that's how you see it, you too are ignoring the points and suggestions he's made, and are just faulting him for his dislike of Fate's popularity, and thus it's falling into the same trap as above. As for the environment... where would he go? As we all know, this is the most open forum on the western side of the fandom when it comes to non-Fate or non-NanoFate topics; elsewhere you risk banning for bringing up certain subjects, and on one site you'd be banned if the administrator even suspects you to have attended this forum. I don't agree with his behavior but but he's not being an outright troll like you claim him to be.

Originally Posted by Demi.

You keep defending him, in the meantime, I'll keep my current impression of him that he is in-fact, worse than Sankster.

Fine, but the constant hostility you keep expressing for it will get you in trouble with the mods, just like it has with me when it comes to Sansker and Aki. Enjoy the ban if it comes to it. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Ruby Princess]

Ignored! Like a knife through the heart.

(I have a boyfriend, I shouldn't flirt with other guys ._. Bad Ruby.)

[bhl88]

^ a huge number of members in the same spot...

[Nanya01]

Demi., I have said that there were good points to this movie, and that I felt that Fate's introduction scenes could have been massively improved from what they were in the movie. While I hated how the movie turned out over-all, I have tried to figure out ways to make it better without reducing any character's screen time too much.

Part of it would have been to have Fate have a BDH moment at the start, driving Vita off with a Thunder Rage, but before she could engage Vita, Signum stops her.

Another part would have been to have Nanoha using that time to recover enough to blast Vita (shocking the hell out of her) and driving her back/knocking her down, then passing out.

Arf would have been shown being able to give as good as she gets with Zafira before throwing him into a building and rushing towards vita to stop her when Shamal got to Arf.

So, you tell me that I'm a hater when I point that stuff out?

I have OFFERED the chance to make the movie more enjoyable for more people, not just NanoFate fans, but ALL of the NanoFate (and Fate) fans keep shooting down ALL of my suggestions because they see it as "hating".

I can't win even if I suggest something that would help the over-all product.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Except most of us are just talking about one or two scenes that could make room for other material. Then you jump on them and claim they want to get rid of "all NanoFate material." Even though most people here never even mentioned that.

No, that's not entirely accurate, Keroko.

The criticisms against Fate focus and NanoFate focus are largely of a generalized nature. Well, with Fate, the focus does tend to be on the Lotus Dream scene, so that's at least a bit specific, I'll admit.

But some of the people who criticize NanoFate focus don't specify what exactly they would cut, and what exactly they would leave in (if anything). Lacking such specificity does raise the possibility of wanting to scrap NanoFate entirely.


And naturally a NanoFate fate fan is not going to take kindly to that. And frankly, given that Nanoha and Fate are two of the three most important characters in the entire anime franchise, this frequent railing against their screen-time does strike me as very bizarre. Particularly when they're not even getting significantly more screen-time than what Hayate and the Wolkenritter received.

[Nanya01]

If you want me to be specific, I probably would have cut down on the "walk home and hug" part of the movie. The reunion scene, yeah, that would have stayed because I know that's what people wanted. And, yes, I'd likely keep her being in school that first day as well. (though I liked it better in canon when it was dropped on her in surprise)

[Nanya01]

Stuff I would have changed would have been..

Take outs - walk home and hug scene, the stick training (WHY?!), and even Yuuno's screen time, hell, if we want to streamline stuff more, let's take Lindy's moment of facing the Wolkenritter down, a moment I thought was one of the 3 good points of the movie.

I would have added Fate's BDH moment from canon, Nanoha showing her determinator status by fighting back even though she's about to pass out...

And, if we HAVE to have the LDE in the movie... If that MUST stay...

At least WAIT before cutting back to it.

At least SHOW Nanoha getting out of the situation when she's surrounded by Photon Lancer Genocide Shift.

With this, you STILL get the majority of your Fate and NanoFate scenes, and people who wanted to see some awesome moments from the action sequences get what they wanted as well.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Yeah, look, okay, I can't change what I've done, alright.

You want me to apologize for not liking the movie? Not going to happen.

I don't care that you don't like the movie. I care about how you're trying to convey the hate you have for it.

Every time I pointed out things that could have been done to possibly make the movie better, either by cutting down on some screen time for NanoFate or Fate and letting some other stuff get in, I get hounded by everyone "No, no! You can't do that! You're hating on NanoFate, you killjoy!" even though I have flat out SAID that one thing I HATED was the LACK of Fate's BDH moment at the beginning of the movie and that her BDH moment at the end of the movie hurts BOTH Hayate AND Nanoha's awesome moment from canon.

Lets be honest here. If you could have it, would you want the movie to be identical to the series?

And who is everyone? The few people who don't frequent this subforum, and just came by to post their review? Triple_r? Me?
Honestly, I feel as if you were left to direct it, you would have essentially removed 90% of the fan-favorite scenes at the expense of the other 10% that were dropped because they would be too long to adapt into a movie. So you get your BDH and hand through Nanoha's chest moment at the expense of Fate's dream sequence, and only God knows how much of the NanoFate dynamic. Then what else do you want to remove for the other scenes you wanted? I mean, there must be a whole lot more of those, given the score you gave it.

Edit:

Take outs - walk home and hug scene, the stick training (WHY?!), and even Yuuno's screen time, hell, if we want to streamline stuff more, let's take Lindy's moment of facing the Wolkenritter down, a moment I thought was one of the 3 good points of the movie.

I would have added Fate's BDH moment from canon, Nanoha showing her determinator status by fighting back even though she's about to pass out...

In no way could those three things being removed make time for what you want added. Because those scenes add a lot more than that to the table. Look at how much they rushed the Fate/Signum battle despite removing the BDH and Nanoha not firing her breaker to penetrate the barrier. Keeping both of those scenes would take up a rather large portion of time.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And naturally a NanoFate fate fan is not going to take kindly to that. And frankly, given that Nanoha and Fate are two of the three most important characters in the entire anime franchise, this frequent railing against their screen-time does strike me as very bizarre. Particularly when they're not even getting significantly more screen-time than what Hayate and the Wolkenritter received.

Triple, take something like Sword Art Online for example (Since I know you had problems with that story). Kirito basically stole the glory from every character, and everyone else felt kind of irrelevant (save maybe asuna). Translate that sort of view to nanofate, and that's how this movie feels for a few people. Is that not a fair issue to take?