2016-07-02, 14:04 | Link #21 | |
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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Overpowered characters are not a problem either. You can get equivalent crappy story telling by dropping the power levels down too. All you're really doing is changing which demographic you're trying to please with poor writing: the people who like super grandios characters or the people who like really mondane Mary Sue characters. Power levels are actually not relevant to the writing, it's at most a theme and adds a few fun elements (kicking down a wall vs annihilating a mountain). The actual problem you're alluding to IMO is inbalance. Which is not to say the main character isn't allowed to be extremely powerful but if he is powerful then there are equally powerful antagonists. The taijitu (aka. yin-yang symbol) is a good symbolic representation of what I mean, either side shouldn't be bigger then the other and neighter side should be perfectly pure white or black. It doesn't need to be exact but if it's completely off then the story needs to work a lot harder to actually be of any good I find. The more advanced version of the daoist symbol actually applies pretty well to writing too (go figure). Getting back to the writing problem The general "critic" point of view where everything has to be original to make it good is nonsense. If you want to write thinking that you're just never gonna write anything. Everything is a tool, anything original isn't more special then anything else on the table (you have maybe some wow moment for a few pages; you can have that already by clever use of existing tropes too). Some of the better "original" ideas are just traditional tropes either combined or mutated slightly anyway. Poor use of the tools results in poor end result. Proper use of the tools results in almost guaranteed good result. The love story formula for example is redone over and over how many times now? and yet it's still pretty consistently able to pull the hearth strings no matter how cynical you go into it. This is exactly why I said earlier it's a bad idea to ban this normally, but makes sense in context. Tacking the tool away doesn't exactly make the writers involved any smarter, but given the circumstances it at least prevents them from digging themselves deeper in the mud. I'm not against this apply shock to get a pulse back strategy, but its undeniably an extreme measure; and not guaranteed success.
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2016-07-02, 16:15 | Link #22 | |||
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Probably all of us here know the typical elements of a LN/anime's "Traveling to an Alternate World" story. A writer can keep some of them, sure, but if a writer adheres to all of them, the story is almost certainly going to seem generic. It only makes sense that this is the most likely outcome of adhering strictly to all of the typical tropes of "Traveling to an Alternate World". Going against convention in some cases, or at least bringing in some elements that are unusual to the "Traveling to an Alternate World" story, is likely necessary for such a story to stand apart from the crowd in today's world. Quote:
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But doing some quirky wink-wink meta-stuff with tropes? Lampshading some tropes? Stuff like that? If the show is a comedy, it'll probably get some laughs, which is good. It's not particularly helpful in a non-comedy, though, because this sort of playing with tropes is itself pretty usual now. It's fine if even serious shows have some of this, but this alone just isn't going to cut it in a very saturated market.
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2016-07-03, 00:28 | Link #24 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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I've seen too many unique concepts fall on their faces and too many generic ideas blow me away to let myself be dictated by innovation or lack thereof; I'm loyal to the best subjects, even if some have a better starting point than others
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2016-07-03, 00:54 | Link #25 | |
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Here are your favorite anime shows, which I retrieved from your AS wall: Time of Eve Love Live! School Idol Project Clannad Legend of the Galactic Heroes Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Puella Magi Madoka Magica Heartcatch Precure! Baccano! Skull Man Fate/Zero Other than possibly Heartcatch, that looks like a group of pretty unique (or at least unusual) shows to me. Some are very different from the typical anime show. Most are noteworthy for how much they diverge from standard anime conventions, or genre conventions. For most of these, their more atypical aspects is much of what makes them famous and beloved. I wonder sometimes why some anime fans seem to have a hard time admitting that it's good to be unique. Nobody is saying its always necessary, but it's a nice thing to have. And for a (sub)genre frequently criticized for having too many generic titles, maybe uniqueness should be valued more than what it is. If one of the main criticisms directed at a particular anime (sub)genre is that too much of it is all the same, then doesn't it just make sense to encourage writers to try to write something truly different for a change?
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2016-07-03, 03:00 | Link #26 | ||
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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2016-07-03, 12:00 | Link #27 |
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@Akuma Kousaka - Reading over your lists there, our biggest disagreement is on what even counts as unique/unusual.
There's many shows in your "Unique fallen flat" list that strike me as pretty standard anime shows (Glasslip for example is pretty conventional PAW moe/romance drama/SoL, it's just certain elements of the show needed serious work). And most of the shows in your "typical things that blew me away" list strike me as pretty different (two in particular just scream at me - Aquarion EVOL and TTGL are both far from typical anime shows). It would take up way too much time to debate all of these shows, though, so perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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2016-07-03, 16:55 | Link #28 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Just to tie back to the original contest/news post for a second... I think we shouldn't fail to consider that this sort of decision is probably also a bit self-serving on behalf of the judges. By forbidding the most common current-day trope, they're forcing there to be a bit more variety in the entries. That way, rather than them having to read a huge amount of works with similar premises and having to figure out which one has better nuance, they can do higher level judgments on which premise is most interesting and features the best presentation.
I think the original news article (and this thread to a certain degree) is reading a bit more into it than I'm guessing they probably intended. By purposefully excluding whatever the most popular trend is, you're encouraging people to think outside of the box and likely to get a better variety of contest entries. But it doesn't necessarily mean, as the news article suggested, that they had "had enough" or were making some sort of negative judgement on the genre/trope. The best creativity often comes in response to constraints.
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2016-07-03, 19:13 | Link #29 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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It could also be a way to keep their reviewers from backing out from having burned out of reading too much isekai. Gotta hand it to them; it's no easy job to sift through all those amateur stories and ideas.
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2016-07-04, 17:41 | Link #30 |
Unleashing the Homu-Rage
Join Date: Apr 2010
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As far as I am concerned with regard to isekai, it like every trope, can be done well, but on the other hand, it can be done so often and so formulaically that it becomes an overused cliche. I am no expert on this, but, while there were isekai plots that existed long before then, it seems to me like the boom in isekai took place after the success of first Zero no Tsukaima, and then Sword Art Online, though SAO was not a true isekai in the classic sense.
In general, the isekai formula involves normal, often otaku, almost invariably teenage male protagonist who is transported to another world which resembles a high fantasy themed video game and gains some sort of superpower, or at least conveniently gets access to modern weapons or other technology to give him an advantage. Here he embarks on a grand quest, defeats some evil overlord, and gets a harem of girls all fawning over him along the way. That's not to say isekai can't be done well, but pretty much all of the isekai I liked have deviated from the formula in one way or another, barring Zero No Tsukaima, which got a pass because it was the first isekai I saw. GATE: Thus The JSDF Fought There, for all its issues with political undertones which may turn off some viewers (I just ignore them as it's really no worse than stuff like Call of Duty), deviates from the pattern in a number of ways. First off, the protagonist is a 31 year old JSDF Lieutenant, and while he is still an otaku, his age, as well as his (admittedly hitherto undiscovered) tactical and political savvy does make him stand out. Most notably, however, GATE is unique in that Itami is not the only human from Earth in the fantasy world, but rather is part of a literal invading army, and witnesses the military, political, and societal consequences of the appearance of the GATE on both Earth and the other world. Indeed, GATE can be seen as a story about the interaction between two worlds, rather than one character with another world. Another example is Grimgar, in as much as it does not focus on some grand quest to save the world, but rather the struggles of six people out of time and place as they struggle to survive after being forced to effectively become mercenaries in a world far violent than their own. It also deviates from the formula by making the orcs and goblins feel like a real threat, rather than cannon fodder. However, I think, as Marcus H. pointed out, I suspect that the reason behind the ban is that a lot of the isekai that would get submitted would follow the "rule" for isekai rather than being an exception. If of the stories are so similar, it would be harder for one to stand out. Personally, I think there is one place that I wish the isekai trope would go to more often: something other than a medieval fantasy world. There are plenty of other interesting possibilties for settings to use to place a character into a "fish out of water" scenario, and yet it is so rare to see anything other than a medieval fantasy. |
2016-07-05, 00:52 | Link #31 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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I'm of the opinion that a lot of 'isekai' works could be reworked with minimal effort into a non-isekai work, and very little would have changed in the overall plot.
Re:Zero this season could have easily been Subaru be a really eccentric outsider of the island that got magically transported there, while Grimgar could be the stories of your everyday foot soldiers/mages trying to make a living in a dangerous land. Heck, apart from Subaru having a cellphone (of which can be easily substituted with a magical trinket), nothing connects him to our world. Grimgar's connection to our world is almost non-existent, so why even allude to it at all? I'm not familiar with Gate too much, but from what I've read of it, it could've been a more magically advanced civilization invading from another side of their world through a portal, and little would be changed. (Goodness knows Macross Delta is rife with Imperial Japan allusions and it didn't need to specifically say it) Heck, I don't think Kazama necessarily had to come from our world for most of the comedy to actually work in KonoSuba; just have him as a peasant that got almost ran over by a cart, and be done with it. The list goes on... IMO there really is nothing special about someone from our world travelling to a fantasy world. Because anything can happen in the fantasy world, it's within reason (or even it becomes an expectation) that people of our world can do anything that is possible in that world. For example, a mundane person from our world learning to cast magic isn't very much different from a peasant from their world doing the same thing. The opposite is much more interesting however, in that I mean where someone from a fantasy world gets trapped in our world, especially when they have lost most of their powers. This is because these magical beings now have to live more or less within the constraints of our world, and now we have to wonder how they are to cope with it. The only ones that is hard to do would be if the setting itself has game mechanics as part of its plot. SAO and LogHora for example has MMORPG stuff that can't translate very well into 'real fantasy', and there I'm a bit more forgiving. But vast majority of the rest? I pretty much treat them as pure fantasy. So yeah, I'm actually all for this 'ban'. If anything, it takes away the lazy backstory of your average dude from our average world, when usually next to nothing pertaining to our world even becomes relevant to the plot of the alternate world.
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2016-07-05, 01:22 | Link #32 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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2016-07-07, 19:59 | Link #33 |
On a mission
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Oh good. Get rekt. It was like a clogged toilet overflowing with shit.
It's about time they said "Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad". I hope this happens to more types of stock stories. Now if they'd only get rid of "flimsy premise to justify waifu thrift store of the week" will be good.
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2016-07-08, 19:25 | Link #34 | |
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Join Date: May 2014
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Light Novel Contest Overwhelmed with Alternate World Entries
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2016-07-08, 19:48 | Link #35 |
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^That's... wow. And to think, that's the entry that won 1st Place! I know that titles certainly aren't everything when it comes to stories, but a title like that is just horrible. What is it with LNs and cringey titles? It's like they're begging for their critics to make fun of them.
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2016-07-08, 22:41 | Link #36 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Indonesia
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2016-07-09, 08:45 | Link #40 | ||||
Unleashing the Homu-Rage
Join Date: Apr 2010
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With a title like that, I can only hope that story was a parody on the cliche isekai light novel, particularly with the part about the "Male Virgin". Also, I bet he never actually gains the balls to pick one (or more) of the dozen or so girls fawning over him and end his "virgin" status just like the light novel cliche says he should! Quote:
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