Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by tehtf

Is it possible to briefly describe this alt ending (in the spoiler tag) compared to the normal ending? Cos from what I heard the PS2 ending will be the "true ending" that the author had in mind. just want to know if it's related to piece #52 that you all are talking about.

Nah. It's really just a short excerpt, and intended just for your own amusement.

Spoiler:

Well, it's not much more of an ending. Let me see how best to say it without giving out too much since it is difficult to make sense without playing Matsuribayashi...Oh I know.

Ever wondered how the world would've been IF Adolf Hitler got into the art school in Vienna?

It's kinda like that. It's very short, and it shows one of the possibilities.

Well, we'll just wait until the second season. If they do it, you'll know. If not, we'll see.

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by tehtf

Is it possible to briefly describe this alt ending (in the spoiler tag) compared to the normal ending? Cos from what I heard the PS2 ending will be the "true ending" that the author had in mind. just want to know if it's related to piece #52 that you all are talking about.

Well, to hold back on the details...

Spoiler:

(Most of the stuff here should be obvious for people who read all the pieces, so hopefully it's not too much of a spoiler)

As most people who read the Matsuribayashi-hen contents already know, the true culprit behind Oyashirosama's curse is Takano.

Takano's life story began when a tragic accident occured while she was only a little girl, which led to a chain of events that eventually led her to Takano Hifumi. From there on, Takano grew up under the influence of her "grandfather" and the research of Hinamizawa Syndrome. Finally, certain events that occured while she lived with Takano Hifumi (touched upon in the pieces) led to her decision to continue after her grandfather's steps.

While Matsuribayashi-hen provided a truly epic ending to the story, there were still some sacrifices that had to be made.

Piece #52 provided us with a "what if" scenario that bypassed all that, look at kj's hint above, and you should be able to figure out what the piece is about.

On the other hand, if piece 52 was true, then the entire story of "Higurashi no Naku Koroni" wouldn't have existed either, so it's up to the individual readers on how they want to look at this "ending".

As for the PS2 final chapter, Miotsukushi-hen, I haven't heard anything about it being the "true ending" (with the way Minagoroshi-hen played out, I doubt you can get any "truer" of an ending than Matsuribayashi-hen though). It's true that it will be an "alternate" ending to Matsuribayashi-hen, but whether or not Miotsukushi is "truer"... well, we'll find out when the game is released on 1/28.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

As for the PS2 final chapter, Miotsukushi-hen, I haven't heard anything about it being the "true ending" (with the way Minagoroshi-hen played out, I doubt you can get any "truer" of an ending than Matsuribayashi-hen though). It's true that it will be an "alternate" ending to Matsuribayashi-hen, but whether or not Miotsukushi is "truer"... well, we'll find out when the game is released on 1/28.

I've read it in some wikipedia around, and maybe they advertised something like that... whatever...

But I wouldn't take it seriously. To me it's more like something to try to grab the interest of people and sell a few more copies hehe

[Rias]

I heard they advertised that thePS2 version will have the "true ending" because some people weren't satisfied with Matsuribayashi-hen's ending, and that Ryukishi07 personally rewritten the whole "ending" again (maybe to suit the PS2 version's playing style?). After all, they all wanted to know what happened past June of 1983, espically according to Matsuribayashi-hen's ending.

Of course, now that Saikoroshi-hen is out, that question is answered.

[Ayu-ayu]

Okay, I have a question...maybe I missed the connection somewhere, but what was the deal with Satoko's uncle's body dissapearing, and the hole having to be redug? Or is that covered explicitly later in the remaining arcs? I've watched all the eps, read all the TIPS and Pieces, and bought the disc and am playing the fan translations (I know, I should have waited on the Pieces then, but...), but that's the one gap I'm still puzzled over.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Okay, I have a question...maybe I missed the connection somewhere, but what was the deal with Satoko's uncle's body dissapearing, and the hole having to be redug? Or is that covered explicitly later in the remaining arcs? I've watched all the eps, read all the TIPS and Pieces, and bought the disc and am playing the fan translations (I know, I should have waited on the Pieces then, but...), but that's the one gap I'm still puzzled over.

Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.

Add to that, besides the treasure hunting thing, "Mion" answering Keiichi phone call the night before of watanagashi.

When he said: "I have things to do and I can't go to the festival, please take Satoko with you". "Mion" said she received a similar call in the past and murmured to herself "Satoshi-kun..."

If you rewatch Meakashi-hen you will see how this phone call proceeded (I'm assuming here some events in the past happen in a similar way in every world)

Then we have one more person involved in it all

[Klashikari]

and since keiichi asked blatantly a "request" to mion, as the heir of the sonozaki, you can deduce who did this, and how they cover it.

with some extent, it can be linked with Tsumihoroboshi-hen

[Rias]

I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.

Spoiler:

1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?

2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.

Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Rias

I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.

Spoiler:

1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?

2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.

Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...

i don't think we need spoiler in this thread, hence, i give my opinion without spoiler tags

1. well, there ARE difference between the 2 chapters (and some mistakes in the original TIPS, right kj? ). however, the similarities are really too much to think that they are different, especially with Rika's comment, in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen.
So we can consider that Meakashi-hen is indeed Watanagashi-hen, with slight differences due the randomness/butterfly effect of the "worlds" in Higurashi. (i think KJ has the complete explanation about this, i talked to him a while back for some inconsistancies of meakashi-hen TIPS, and Ryukishi gave some explanation of these already)

2. at first, i thought shion said this, in order to prevent herself being recognized by keiichi as "shion" and not "mion".
however, in the anime version of meakashi-hen, Shion said that, after the doll incident mion was sad and depressed. because of her conversation with her, shion, who was able to seal her feelings for satoshi, had some flashback, so, reviving her insanity she had 1 year earlier, after the "nail incident" and satoshi-s disappearance.
while it seems rather cranky, this explanation is plausible.

i won't take these answers as canon, we would definitavely need the novel informations about theses 2.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1. well, there ARE difference between the 2 chapters (and some mistakes in the original TIPS, right kj? ). however, the similarities are really too much to think that they are different, especially with Rika's comment, in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen.
So we can consider that Meakashi-hen is indeed Watanagashi-hen, with slight differences due the randomness/butterfly effect of the "worlds" in Higurashi. (i think KJ has the complete explanation about this, i talked to him a while back for some inconsistancies of meakashi-hen TIPS, and Ryukishi gave some explanation of these already)

What are the inconsistencies of Meakashi TIPS?
Are you talking about that stuff of Shion's/Mion's names apparently mistakenly swapped in some TIPS?

[Klashikari]

no, in fact, 2 tips are conflicting each other.
TIPS #109 and TIPS #113

In the TIPS 113, it is stated that rika died the 22nd june.

However, on the police investigation, TIPS 109, it appears that the 21th is the LATEST date possible, because between Rika's death and Keiichi's confrontation against mion, at least 1 day have passed. (like i said in this thread about the 48hours theory here, more than 48 hours have passed in fact)

The police barged in the 22nd, so the TIPS 113 has a mistake. (if i take my previous post into account, i would say rika died around the 19-20th, if we consider the 22nd as the canon date for the police barging)

If we consider the TIPS 109 as the faulty one, well... TIPS 113 is still helluva broken, since Mion's death on this TIPS is also on the 22nd june, whish is impossible time wise.

according to KJ, Ryukishi made the mistake, and gave a reply about this, when several japanese players discovered that mistake.
He tried to change the difference between Watanagashi and Meakashi (the days in Watanagashi were 18-20, and Meakashi were 19-21) to show that though the two are similar, they are not necessarily equal. However, while he was trying to change the dates, he went overboard and didn't notice the inconsistencies.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.

Ah, okay! That was one of my original thoughts, but that damn Takano's dialogue with Keiichi afterwards and some other stuff started making me second guess myself and make it more complicated than it was.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

no, in fact, 2 tips are conflicting each other.
TIPS #109 and TIPS #113

In the TIPS 113, it is stated that rika died the 22nd june.

However, on the police investigation, TIPS 109, it appears that the 21th is the LATEST date possible, because between Rika's death and Keiichi's confrontation against mion, at least 1 day have passed. (like i said in this thread about the 48hours theory here, more than 48 hours have passed in fact)

The police barged in the 22nd, so the TIPS 113 has a mistake. (if i take my previous post into account, i would say rika died around the 19-20th, if we consider the 22nd as the canon date for the police barging)

If we consider the TIPS 109 as the faulty one, well... TIPS 113 is still helluva broken, since Mion's death on this TIPS is also on the 22nd june, whish is impossible time wise.

according to KJ, Ryukishi made the mistake, and gave a reply about this, when several japanese players discovered that mistake.
He tried to change the difference between Watanagashi and Meakashi (the days in Watanagashi were 18-20, and Meakashi were 19-21) to show that though the two are similar, they are not necessarily equal. However, while he was trying to change the dates, he went overboard and didn't notice the inconsistencies.

Man...
What a mess heheehe
And to think everything woul be solved just by changing 22nd to 20th on TIP 113...

Maybe it was just a mistyping

And it all apply to Satoko's death date too
But her date could have been 21st or maybe 20th, whatever...

[tehtf]

Just a side note, seems every person had their hands stanined with blood after all the chapters, all excecpt Mion. Think she's the only one left that hasn't really go L5 in the series. It will be interesting if Ryukishi will make one more question and answer arc for "the real Mion going mad" senario.... it will be interesting.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by tehtf

Just a side note, seems every person had their hands stanined with blood after all the chapters, all excecpt Mion. Think she's the only one left that hasn't really go L5 in the series. It will be interesting if Ryukishi will make one more question and answer arc for "the real Mion going mad" senario.... it will be interesting.

PS2 port will have a pair of extra scenarios...

maybe it will be in this one...

[riprock]

All right, this is just my speculation, but I've been reading all the "tips" and "pieces" over and over and I don't think anyone has yet voiced the following theory:

Spoiler for new spoiler:

1. Everyone afflicted with the special paranoia hears a "peta-peta" of feet following them.
2. Some of them also see figures following them.
3. When Keichi sees a figure following him, it takes him great effort to look, and there's no explicit explanation of what he sees. By contrast, in the anime, when he remembers killing his friends in "another possible universe," he can still talk and hug Mion.
4. Keichi asks about a doppelganger when he visits the doctor and the doctor says it's usually a sign of ill omen. Keichi is wondering, just as Satoshi wondered, if there could be two people of exactly the same appearance.
5. The fictional universe involves something like "quantum mechanics" as evidenced by the poem about Schrodinger's Cat.
6. At least some of the strange apparitions are special quantum-mechanical "shadows." Possibly they are always the shadow of the person who sees them, and possibly they are unfamiliar people -- and if Hanyuu can be seen as a shadow, that could explain some panic.
7. Seeing a quantum shadow might obviously trigger psychological trauma, but because of Schrodinger's Cat, it might also trigger changes to the quantum-mechanical nature of the time loop.

So, yeah, that's my theory on what happened.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Rias

I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.

Spoiler:

1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?

2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.

Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...

Well it's been a while now.

Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion causes her to go to Shion and share her feelings about Keiichi. On the surface this leads to Shion deciding to screw with the two of them by posing as Mion, both to amuse herself and also to further their relationship by getting Keiichi to think of Mion as a girl and getting Mion to drop her pose of disregard. However subconsciously she's doing it because she's jealous and resentful of her sister for being in love with someone who is a lot like Satoshi, right down to the mannerism of patting girls on the head, while the real Satoshi is apparently dead. This increases Shion's stress level, awakening the syndrome with resulting paranoia that starts everything tumbling down.

[riprock]

It's weird to note that Satoko, Mion/Shion, and Reina all have a certain apology style.

Spoiler for "apology:

1. Satoko freaks out in the classroom and says "Gomennasai" over and over.
2. Reina is seen in the rain outside Keichi's house, saying "Gomennasai" over and over (assuming it wasn't a quantum shadow from an alternate timeline, or Keichi's hallucination).
3. Mion/Shion is told by her sister that some mercy might be shown if she says "Gomennasai" ten thousand times, so she starts doing it rapidly, sounding much like Satoko.

4. By contrast, the one big time that Keichi apologizes, he does so articulately, explaining that in an alternate timeline he remembers killing his friends, and he hugs Mion. Perhaps this difference in apology styles is what makes Keichi so different. Everyone else doesn't have the courage to look at what sin was committed, but Keichi is willing to admit it, first to himself, and then to others. This breaks through the neurosis of the town and makes Keichi the "fresh wind" that yakuza granny said he would be.

Of course, all of the above is just my speculation based on the anime, which is not the same as the game.

[Regel]

And I want to ask:

Was the person gomenasaing to Keichi under rain in the 1st ark Rena or not (Hanyuu && delusion)?