2014-03-22, 20:31
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Link #34141 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Of course this would have meant Battler was secretely cracked by the pain for the loss of his mother... which apparently didn't happen as far as Chiru is involved. As for the others if things went similar to the teaparty well the opening of the fire was accidental. Kyrie might have killed/tried to kill Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi because she felt they were dangerous. After all they were waving around guns, Eva was overly excited and had been even before shooting at Natsuhi and Rosa wasn't any better. One might think they would end up shooting again. George and Jessica might have been collateral damage. If they suspected Kyrie and Rudolf killed the others they might have attacked them. Jessica is definitely the brash type so she would surely do it. The servants might have come to haid her and... well, be disposed off. It would have been interesting though if George's death was unconnected to Rudolf and Kyrie but was the result of a brawl he had with Battler. Neither meant to kill the other but... unfortunate incidents happen and Ep 6 had the love couple battling each other. In Ep 6 it was Kanon who ended up being shot but what if in Prime it was George? Quote:
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2014-03-22, 21:42
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Link #34142 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
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"You know, we really could have cleaned up all these skeletons at some point in the last 40 years. I mean, we could've at least dug a big hole and dumped them all in it."
"And leave me high and dry if I ever need a human skeleton on short notice? Genji, there are some things you just don't do."
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2014-03-22, 22:19
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Link #34143 | |||
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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That info about the manga is brilliant. But I've got to say...
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It's a really different thing from the "I can't believe that Yasu would blow up the island just because she didn't have the guts to make a single phone call" situation. Quote:
 Sadly plausible...
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2014-03-22, 23:53
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Link #34144 | |||||||
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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That, of course, is a whole 'nother argument. I'm clearly the champion of unpopular theories, huh? Quote:
Genji: So you see, the late master truly thought of you as his child, just like the second Beatrice in Kuwadorian. He believed it for a long time, so certain encouragement about the riddle and other odd behaviors from him may start to make more sense... Yasu: (quietly freaking out) OMG I'm an INCEST BABY! Genji: Huh? What was that? Yasu: Err- nothing! I'm Beatrcie! I AM THE GOLDEN WITCH REBORN! Genji: Yes madam. Of course you are. As I was saying... I wouldn't put it past that Yasu. Quote:
Let me be clear. I'm not suggesting that no one ever visited or even that there weren't regularly scheduled visits. A certain (small) amount of other people coming by on a regular basis is necessary. I think there was no one else there at the time of Rosa's visit, because no other characters appeared or were mentioned as being nearby or displayed any sign of existence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is certainly grounds for some strong suspicion. Quote:
***** Well, the way the ep8 Manga is going I may yet be eating crow on this, but I do intend to go down swinging. Someone should challenge Kinzo-cest, and it seems like no one else will. |
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2014-03-22, 23:57
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Link #34145 | |
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2014-03-23, 02:13
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Link #34146 | ||||
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Maybe he actually had no time to move them away. Maybe he's too occupied to remember about them. Maybe he thought about moving them, but realised the process would take too much time and effort, together with unwanted attention which could raise more suspicion on the past incident on the island...Moreover, why should he care what happened to those guys anyways? in Kinzo mind, he probably hated them guts and/or found them very disgusting. And at the end of his life, I think Kinzo was too broken to really mind what was happening around him, let alone those skeletons. Of course this is based on the narration's interpretation of him. The real Kinzo may be just reallyyyy into bones, who knows? Quote:
The problem with this theory, and what bugs me the most is: If it's true and nobody is guilty, there's no reason for people to be so adamant of keeping the truth a secret. If there's no culprits, why not just delcare so and clear the name and honour of everyone? Who are they covering for? Why do they have to hide the truth? Oh well, I think I would wait for the manga to see if we got a somewhat different ending and a less controversial message. Quote:
To think about it, it's really sad. The old man is just a blank canvas for everyone to put their thought into. Natsuhi saw an illusion of an understanding father-in-law. Battler (Ep 5) saw an old crazy but cool guy that he could relate too...Everything started from him, and at the end, everything about him becomes a big zero. But again, being subtle is definitely not being Ryukishi. Quote:
Me too. And I guess everybody wants to know too. There're some very big holes in the characterisation of Shkanonyasutrice that makes understand her very difficult. Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2014-03-23 at 02:42. |
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2014-03-23, 06:43
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Link #34147 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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But, going by the scans that are there, I made translations of what we have so far from the current chapter (which does again make a lot of the speculative stuff clearer). It's from this tumblr a few posts down. I can't get in touch with her (tried it a few times), if anybody wants to have a go, PLEASE try. I hope it becomes clear what order (it's 2nd post first and from top to bottom in picture order). Spoiler for Umineko EP8 chapter 26:
Even with the missing pages in between it's interesting what kind of light it casts on Yasu as well. She is clearly disturbed by all that which is put on her and while it makes her a little more culpable for the incident, let's face it, everybody would have been disturbed beyond belief by the info she got. And at least we know that she tried "acting out" Kanon on the island. Maybe just as an attempt to see if "she" could live as a he and maybe to let out the rage verbally as well. But then Jessica caught a glimpse of "Kanon" and Yasu started spinning lies and stories and just got caught up...but in the end she actually did start having doubts whether Jessica might not be a safer choice. Quote:
Well yes, there is a room with a bunch of corpses dumped in it, but if we gave Kinzo the chance to speak out on it, which he can't anymore, he might give a completely different spin on it. I think, a lot he might have done in the heat of the moment and later got caught up in a similar web of lies as Yasu... He could impossibly return the corpses to their families, since not only did the government cover up the existence of this base, the GHQ might have demanded to search the grounds and would have found the gold, possibly even found Bice. Burying them overground would have meant taking the risk of being seen, or the risk of them being dug up, being washed into the ocean by a typhoon...they were "safest" in that underground tomb. And building his mansion on top of it meant nobody ever being able to find them. They aren't GOOD or SANE reasons, but in a confused state Kinzo might have just gotten in over his head. Last edited by haguruma; 2014-03-23 at 06:54. |
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2014-03-23, 07:33
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Link #34148 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Whoa, thank you very much for posting the translation. The trend continues of the manga more or less confirming what was already accepted, just rather vague, previously.
And, about the bodies, I mean ... there's not much point in moving them, really? All of those men should be known as casualties in the war, or loooong since missing, and almost anyone old enough to remember "there were some guys stationed on Rokkenjima, once" should be knocking on death's door by their age. Who's gonna go looking for them? Who's gonna stumble into that place by accident? The farthest anyone seems to stray from the mansion is the occasional chapel cleaning by the servants, which Genji supervises (iirc) so nobody goes too near, probably. There is, perhaps, adolescent Rosa, but ... ... I mean ... what's adolescent Rosa gonna do? Ask her dad about all the dead people? More likely half heartedly tell Genji and have it conveniently repressed in her little adolescent memory . If anything, the strange part now is why he bothered making a grand Gold Chamber that resembled a bedroom, as it requires moving an asston of gold bricks, and noone ever slept there. ... well, I guess Kinzo could have slept there on occasion. Quote:
And we're told outright that the more strange characterizations we see (namely, Natsuhi's Kinzo, and Battler's fun-loving Kinzo) are lies they made up. Like, not even "my time with Kinzo was limited but this was my impression", but straight. Up. Lies, man. |
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2014-03-23, 08:32
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Link #34149 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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I do wonder though if it might not have actually gone like that a little as well. I mean, are we honestly supposed to believe that in actual Rokkenjima (not crazy-fun-time-Golden-Land Rokkenjima) one of the cousins would have gone with their cousin/aunt?! They might have understood her, but I suppose a little bit of rage on George or Jessica's side would be expectable... Quote:
I also think that Kinzo-Genji friendship and Kinzo's boyish fascination with guns was not exagerated that much in the EP8 manga. Maybe even the Halloween party bit was partially true, at least till 1985 when Kinzo stopped showing up...due to well, dying and stuff. Maybe loosing Lion made him realize that he really wanted to have a child to actually be around and be nice to and that's why he cherished his grandchildren so much. His real children probably wouldn't let him in even if he tried to be nice, apart from him probably being to stubborn to actually go and say, "Hey, sorry for being an ass for a good 40-50 years". |
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2014-03-23, 09:16
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Link #34150 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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But then it is very much comfirmed to crossdress as Kanon huh? Well, I think I am in the minority here, but I have always hoped that Kanon is a, literature device or something in Yasu's tale and she might not really go around dressing as Kanon and two-timing her cousins.... ...Because, Jessica, really. One is your closest maid (maybe friend too) and one is the guy you has the eyes on...And you cannot tell they have the same face, never in the same place together and well, they're more or less the same person? That always seems to test my suspension of disbelief. But if it's so comfirmed, I guess I have no other way but to swallow it. It's also interesting that Yasu thought that Kinzo killed them all to "monopolize" the gold and Beatrice. Because while reading EP 7, something is always tickling in a corner of my mind, saying that if the incident and the gold is true, Kinzo might not be so innocent like he potrayed himself to Will. Quote:
When I say Kinzo is a blank state, it's mostly because in the time period of the game, the guy is very much dead, so I'm kinda sorry for him to be used in every kind of conspiracy. Father did this Father did that, oh, it's probably our Grandfather again you know? After the incident, like most people in the Ushiromiya family, are used in different theories however the writer wants, based on external knowledge of them about Kinzo. |
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2014-03-23, 09:24
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Link #34151 |
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Again though, the main issue here is that there doesn't seem to be any justification for murder, only suicide. Certainly it's understandable that this sort of thing would have an impact on someone's mental state, but what kind of person decides they're going to kill themselves by massive explosion at the point in time where as many people as possible are present on the island? Particularly all the ones who, you know, don't know all this nasty shit that Kinzo did. It's perfectly understandable to be shocked and angered by Kinzo's actions knowing what Yasu knows, and even to be disgusted with oneself out of some fear of association with him.
But what the fuck? "I'll wait for the conference, when I can kill over a dozen people in addition to myself" is basically a tremendously evil sort of thing to decide to do. Granted, there's always the strong possibility that this is precisely why Yasu couldn't do it in the end. I have trouble believing she lacks empathy or fears judgment to the extent that she'd be willing to murder basically everyone she knows for an obviously selfish end. It'd be one thing to conclude everyone else was complicit in Kinzo's crimes, but the structure of the story makes explicitly clear that not only aren't most of the family involved, they don't even know and they practically don't even like their father. There's no excuse.
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2014-03-23, 09:39
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Link #34152 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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We don't know, really, I don't think we know. |
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2014-03-23, 09:46
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Link #34153 | |||||||||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Sure, I'm not saying there is absolutely no room to deny it, heck, there's plenty of room to deny even Yasu, or Rokenjima itself and everything else the way EP8 ended. And yes, an alternative theory, even forced, could work just as well, what I'm saying is that the incest is pretty much part of the canon solution. And the manga (at least from haguruma's post) does make a point that a small part of Yasu's self-loathing also comes from being the child of such an asshole. Quote:
As for Kumasawa's existence, no, of course, the fact that Kumasawa being there does not suggest Kinzo had sex with his daugther (unless of course the story had suggested Kumasawa is a person who likes to watch blood relatives having sex or something) but it would lead you to think that Kuwadorian Beatrice is Kinzo's illegitimate child whom he is raising in the secret mansion, or that Kumasawa is perhaps an accomplice, because she clearly knows a lot. Quote:
And it raises serious question at Battler's integrity. Okay, Yasu isn't really integre and wouldn't have a reason to give a shit about Ange, but Battler would be a huge dick to abandon his little sister (and quite possibly letting Eva go through all the hell she did) while he carefreely spent the gold, hidden away with his girlfriend. What is more, instead of apologizing to her, he serves her a bunch of highly questionable lies to avoid having her justifiably beating him up. And regardless of all that, it just seems like a huge distortion, I don't think it's a plausible answer at all. Quote:
And why would Kinzo think of Yasu as his child with no basis? Then again, don't anything past him... Admittedly, Yasu could have possibly learned or interpreted some stuff wrong, but in this situation, Genji would perpahs try to explain everything to her as objectively as possible. And it's not like it's third-party testimony that distort things, Genji actually lived to witness all this so he is capable of painting a clear picture for her. Quote:
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And more importantly, Kinzo cannot be sure when something bad will happen to her. If it does, she can do nothing about it when she is alone. Sure, the mansion is a walking distance from there, but she can't get there, she can't even get out because of the wolve story and she doesn't even know it exists. Kinzo can't predict when an accident will happen, and I assume he has to tell his family some sort of excuse whenever he's gone (provided that he gives a tiny shit about what they think, of course). The point is, he can't be there 24 hours per-day, neither can he be sure how often he will be able to visit. Someone must have been there regardless of an incest baby. Quote:
This really makes me wonder what Natsuhi and Krauss did with his body btw, because Yasu totally just carefreely slams it in the boiler and Natsuhi just acts surprised when he's found. Was he ever burried, to begin with, or did they just dump it in the ungerground passage with his war buddies: Natsuhi:"Oh, what to do with Father's body?" Genji:"Don't worry Madam, I know just the place where to put it" Quote:
I'm kinda pissed now. Was this such hard a thing for Ryukishi to do in EP8? It's annoying because, everybody pretty much knew all that stuff, but it does offer some necessary insight on Yasu as a character. We never get to see her thought process or the experiences which led her to commit the crimes and yet the story goes on and on about how we should understand her heart. We defnitely know why she did it and her inner conflict in rough lines, but we can't be sure of how she felt without guessing tons of necessary backstory.
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2014-03-23, 09:57
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Sure thing Genji would have done better not to tell Yasu the whole truth. I guess it wouldn't have hurt let her think that Kuwadorian Beatrice wasn't Kinzo's daughter but that Bice was already pregnant when she met Kinzo and avoid showing her the corpses or telling her something nicer like... there was a gas leack in the base while the master and Beatrice were out and hum... people died. I mean... hadn't he realized all that was too much for her all in a blow and completely useless for her to use to improve her life? It seems more like the act of someone who wants to clean his coscience from some huge weight and tattles everything out to the nearest person available. Quote:
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It's not an obvious reference to incest, more like a subtle, interpretative implication so I don't know if that's what Captain Bluebeard is talking about. Battler figured the story Beato told him is to be interpreted as Bice having a daughter and then dying and Kinzo ending up on closing that daughter in Kuwadorian and courting her until she too died. Battler stopped here in his reasoning but since we're told Beatrice's soul moved again and Kinzo was courting Kuwadorian Beatrice the next step would be assume she too had a baby and it's in that baby her soul moved. Anyway the manga now confirmed that Yasu has Kinzo's blood in her so the best we can do is to doubt if Kuwadorian Beatrice was Kinzo and Bice's daughter and not the daughter of Bice and... let's say Ruben and, since Kinzo became Beatrice's lover when Beatrice's pregnancy had just started he assumed he was Kuwadorian Beatrice's father or decided to delude himself into thinking he was and that his Bice had no other man apart from him. Quote:
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And Yasu took advantage of Battler's amnesia to try again to rebuild a relation with him and have a life in which they could fit. Maybe she thought it was better for them both. She didn't feel up like showing herself and her story to the outside world and Battler wouldn't have to deal with painful memories and Eva can keep the inheritance and Ange have a replacement mom. So yeah, let's call Battler Tohya and feed him with a story and live happily with him. Ikuko seems really happy in the manga to have Tohya around so maybe her new life did good to Yasu and she wasn't keeping herself up to date about what happened to Ange and Tohya seemed all right too so... She probably started having second thought when Ange showed up demanding to see Tohya and Tohya started remembering things and throwing fits but by then it was too late. Ep 4 ending might be seen as she and Tohya having a huge argument in which she thought she lost him again and he would remember and return to Ange... (who's probably disappeared) which ends more or less in Ep 5/6 with Tohya remembering but deciding to stay with her. Quote:
Like we discussed about how Kanon might not have existed and now the manga confirmed Jessica actually saw him and assumed he was his own person. Or the long discussions we had about why Erika in Ep 5 didn't notice that in the parlour not everyone was present (Kanon or Shannon should have been missing) and the manga confirmed one of them was missing and explained how the trick worked. Quote:
Eva claims she shoots Natsuhi accidentally and she knows this is true but Kyrie might not believe her. She might think Eva is making excuses for deliberately shooting Natsuhi in point blank rage and greed and think that Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa, to satisfy their greed, would soon shoot them too so she shoot them first. As Eva knows she didn't do it out of greed she thinks it's obvious to everyone and that if Kyrie is shooting them is because SHE IS THE GREEDY ONE. Ergo to Eva Kyrie shoot everyone out of greed. As Kyrie died the truth died with her... or she might have confessed to Eva (she said something we didn't heard) but Eva didn't know if she was truthful or not so basically although the book of one truth contains the truth about the facts the why is missing. In a way it's a situation very similar to the one of Shannon and Battler. Shannon thinks Battler was never serious in her regards and probably has countless girls out of Rokkenjima when Battler actually looked at her as his first love, hadn't forgotten her, is secretly jealous of how George got her and neve had another girlfriend. In fact he thinks of getting one after he sees that Shannon is dating another. It is also subtly implied that if Shannon hadn't lost faith and had waited for him he probably would have resumed his relationship with her. Quote:
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So maybe PrimeKinzo showed him the stakes because he deliberately wanted to scare him to death because he was mean like that with a small kid and Battler thought: oh, grandad only wanted to joke with me and as I was a child I didn't understand it... but he really wanted only to be nice. Battler's gentle interpretation is interesting because it clashes beautifully with the public opinion's cruel interpretation who's likely also over the top and not really 'Kinzo'. We get a Kinzo who probably was in the middle between the two interpretations, not quite a monster but not even a loving grandad. More likely an odd and selfish person... who can be cruel, can be scary but can also have good moments in which he handed Yasu candies and chatted with Genji friendly. |
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2014-03-23, 10:02
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Link #34155 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Slightly out of topic, but Scrooge McDuck is a well-written character. If you have read the "Lifes and Times of Scrooge McDuck" by Don Rosa  )
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2014-03-23, 10:03
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Link #34156 | ||
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Really it comes down to "was she trying to commit murder and was stopped" vs. "was she never intending to commit murder outside her stories and someone exploited whatever it is she did do." There's a pretty strong difference in culpability there regardless of whether she was, in the end, actually the one responsible for causing the deaths (which, if nothing else, Eva doesn't seem to believe is the case as that's not what her diary says). If she got pushed to the brink but couldn't go through with it (but shit still went down), then she's human and sympathetic. If she was totally gonna kill everybody and someone else just outwitted her and beat her to the punch, it's kinda hard for me to care. But I'd lean toward the former because I find it very hard to believe Battler would be forgiving if his realization was along the lines of "You were actually going to murder everyone, but Kyrie stabbed them all in the face first and you never got to do it, so I guess we're cool." More plausible is "You were driven to a point where you genuinely had those feelings, but you literally bottled them up and threw them out to sea and resolved to do something else to make me remember, and everything went terribly wrong." There's really no redemptive angle possible in the narrative for Beatrice unless Yasu changed her mind at some point, or never developed the intent in the first place. Merely deciding she'd been stopped (as her dialogue in the ep7 TP would insinuate) wouldn't absolve her. Quote:
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2014-03-23, 10:11
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Link #34157 | ||
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Haguruma, thank you so much for posting that translation.
Problems with other characters not recognising Kanon aside, I'm really happy that Kanon was actually acted out at least to some extent. I also really like the way that Yasu treated Jessica's interest in Kanon. It seems quite believable that Yasu would be thrilled at having someone take a positive interest in the side of Yasu which she viewed as the form of her lost opportunities. Ouch. Poor Yasu. It also makes me feel a bit bad for Jessica, because although I'm sure Yasu had affection for her, and Kanon will have been genuine when he was saying she shines like the sun, the way he was shown to be talking there seemed to be focused more on the opportunity for living life as male and still being loved. (I suppose that stuff is all a nail in the coffin for the slim possibilities of Yasu's sex not being male, not that most people have thought that was at all likely for some time now.) Quote:
It seems at the point being covered in that chapter that Yasu already knew Battler was coming back to the family. But we know that if Battler hadn't come back, there would have been a smaller incident. So, Yasu wouldn't have planned to blow up the island at all. While this chapter gives some insight into the pressure on her and her mindset (and makes it much easier to believe that she was on the brink of damn it, let's blow everything up), what it doesn't fully explain is Battler's return being such a major thing that it would cause her to go from, say, a scenario where either or both Kanon or Shannon mysteriously disappeared or both of them died to one where she murdered everyone. Quote:
Alternatively, although this wouldn't show Yasu in a good light, to her this could have been her one last chance to connect with all of the people she loved (through death). If Battler wasn't there, he would still be out there somewhere and the twisted logic of the cat box fulflling Yasu's love wouldn't be able to capture him. She does go on to talk about how if only she could be released from her body and connected to all of them via their souls. So...this does seem to be her reasoning. Augh. Battler being there just gave her the opportunity to pull that off, rather than it being that he was the only thing causing her to suffer crushing distress. Although we don't know if she only thought that or if she really meant for it to be put into action. |
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2014-03-23, 10:13
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Link #34158 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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But I could see that there're many details that suggested she really planned to nuke them all...so I am still unable to form a solid interpretation of her. And I think that there're something similar between Scoorge McDuck and Kinzo. They're all self-made man (Kinzo case, sort of), larger than life, very nasty to other people, but implied to love their grandchild (in Kinzo case, really emphasis on implied). But Don Rosa is succesful, while Ryukishi...well, don;t know what to say about him. Scrooge is larger than life, true, but he's also very relatable. We could understand him even though sometime we cannot sympathise with him. We understand why he did the thing he did. The same thing to Yasu. Her situation is so over the top, even more than Kinzo, that I found it very hard to understand her. At least with the information we have now, I don't think we could form an understanding, not to mentioned a judgment of her. |
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2014-03-23, 10:13
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Link #34159 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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But yeah, Yasu isn't coming as worthy of empathy here at all. Pity maybe, if she was driven off into the deep end, but it is at no point understandable. Kinzo is straight up a horrible monster and Genji isn't a whole lot better and you could argue that he was even worse than him because at least you could claim Kinzo was insane. |
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2014-03-23, 10:22
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Link #34160 | ||
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Fortunately, I don't think that's the case because all the times where Beatrice is mocking or challenging Yasu suggest a metaphorical operation of conscience. Yasu knows this shit isn't really true, she knows she's deceiving people, and she knows it's wrong. She wants an answer, and she's clearly at least thought about the whole murder/suicide angle (if we take her writings to be a thing that actually exists, and since the entire post-incident world revolves around that appearing to be the case...). But entertaining a thought, justifying it, and acting on it are all different things. Of course we could also be confusing motives and effects as an after-the-fact thing. For example, maybe once Yasu thought "I could blow everybody up and create a catbox where no truth would ever be known," but realized that this didn't justify actually doing it. Then a bunch of shit happened and Yasu decided to blow everything up for a different reason (because covering it up and taking the blame for it would be better than outing someone as a murderer). From an outside perspective we'd only see the outcome of the explosion, so we'd lack knowledge of whether it was intended all along or if it was a sort of desperate last measure to preserve the family's dignity. Ethically there's at least a distinction between "blow up a bunch of living people" and "blow up a bunch of corpses."
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