The Genderbending of Haruhi Suzumiya [Spoilers Aplenty]

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

We're not changing how we've referred to Itsuko from the beginning. That's final, so please, please stop bringing up the issue.

WE DO NOT NEED TO JUSTIFY EVERYTHING WE DO.

That is all. Now please, let's stop discussing this.

Exept pretty much everthing was justified. I am just asking the 'why' now.

This is probably the best asnwer:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Basically that means you don't want to go back and try to hunt down every instance of the work "Itsuko" spoken by Kyonko and adjust it because it would take a month at least to hunt them all down in context and all. Plus you don't want to have to find a place to put a justification into a story because then you'd have to find were or if there was a switching in how Itsuko is refered to by Kyonko.

Basically.

PP:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.

And you want justifications, Heatth?

Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.

But we don't so we're stuck like this. Maybe Kyonko simply doesn't consider them friends, while she considers Itsuko one. You'll note Itsuko is generally less creepy than Itsuki is.

So. I ask you, why shouldn't she call Itsuko by her first name? They're close, Itsuko is the only girl in the brigade, she's the only one Kyonko can really talk to about her problems... and she, like I said, unlike her male counterpart, considers Itsuko an actual friend.


For that matter, about Haruki being 'special' to her... at this point, before the end of Sighs, he really isn't. In fact, I'd say that she hates him.

No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.

Only after the end of Sighs, and Live Alive, after he starts to grow up, does Kyonko start becoming truly attracted to him. Though she'll never admit it.

That good enough for you?

Actually, yes it is. So, the point is the relationship between Kyonko and Itsuko Iis different from Kyon and Itsuki? And the same goes for Kyonko and Haruki? Actually, this make sense. While Kyon genually like Haruhi from the start, the same don't really happens for Kyonko? Cause Haruki is a jerk (well, Haruhi is too, but she is a girl)?

Thanks a lot, really.

[Tyabann]

See above...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.

And you want justifications, Heatth?

Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.

I agree with you here.

I know that Heatth and others have refused to accept it, but on the whole, Japanese female characters do call each other by given names moreso than Japanese male characters do.

I'm not about to sift through dozens upon dozens of animes to demonstrate this numerically, and I'll admit that of course there are exceptions to the rule, but I'm almost positive that, on the whole, Japanese girls tend to call each other by their given name more than Japanese guys do. I've watched a lot of anime, and this is a definite impression that I've gotten over time.

This alone is reason enough for me to be perfectly comfortable with Kyonko refering to Itsuko as Itsuko while Kyon refers to Itsuki as Koizumi.

[Tyabann]

Yes. In the end, boys and girls are different.

Wasn't this one of the main points of Seitenkan anyway? To find out what happens because of the gender change? Or am I misremembering what I was there for in the first place?

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree with you here.

I know that Heatth and others have refused to accept it, but on the whole, Japanese female characters do call each other by given names moreso than Japanese male characters do.

It is not about refusing to accept. Is just that, given she can't call T&K by their names, calling Itsuko by her make it automatically awkward. It just that, given the ciscunstance, it doesn't really work.

Anyway, I edited my post, you guys post too fst (or I am too slow)

PP:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Yes. In the end, boys and girls are different.

Wasn't this one of the main points of Seitenkan anyway? To find out what happens because of the gender change? Or am I misremembering what I was there for in the first place?

The point is I really fail in see how the gender matter here. Also, as I said, the main point is not this was T&K and, specially, Haruki. You explained the latter pretty well.

(Can you stop posting in less the 3 minutes, please? I can't rea/write that fast )

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Actually, yes it is. So, the point is the relationship between Kyonko and Itsuko Iis different from Kyon and Itsuki? And the same goes for Kyonko and Haruki? Actually, this make sense. While Kyon genually like Haruhi from the start, the same don't really happens for Kyonko? Cause Haruki is a jerk (well, Haruhi is too, but she is a girl)?

Yesssss.

Generally, Kyon is shallow where Kyonko is... still shallow, but not nearly as much. She's also a fair bit more open to interpersonal relationships. As a trade-off, she's quicker to anger.

Kyon =/= Kyonko.
Haruhi =/= Haruki.
Mikuru =/= Mitsuuru.
Itsuki =/= Itsuko.
Yuki == Yuuki. Wait...

You see my point, however.

Originally Posted by Heatth

The point is I really fail in see how the gender matter here. Also, as I said, the main point is not this was T&K and, specially, Haruki. You explained the latter pretty well.

Boys and girls are different. Gender is the basis for everything. Butterfly Effect.

This alone should be enough explanation for you, but...

[Heatth]

Actually, I thought one of the things were keep the main points by change the situation. So, Kyonko is still protective to Mitsuru, but now not because of a crush, but because a sisterly afection. Similarly, I thought the basis of the relation between Haruki and Kyonko was the same as Haruhi and Kyon (obviously, is hard to tell because Kyon still acts as he didn't lik Haruhi, even it don't being true).

[scify]

*cough* On a change of topic, I'm now kicking myself for not recognizing the computer game/web page as a metaphor for the VN itself. Assuming I'm right, it'd be awesome if the player could actually use it to understand the paths in the VN. Might be beyond Ren'py's abilities, though.

Also, starting to question my previous opinion on the Voices in Shadow and greentext. Still not sure what I think, though.

Also, awesome little scene, Kogetsu. I can completely picture Itsuko doing something like that, too...

EDIT: Oh, and just a curiosity on my part after rereading The Grass is Always Greener, has anyone else noticed how often women's lips are described as tasting like strawberries? Why is this? Is there something I'm missing in all the kissing I've done?

Spoiler for The Grass is Always Greener:

I am so large that I break light speed whenever I move.

And so Kyonko becomes the TTGL?

It's refreshing to reread this after my head has cleared from the first time through... so many details I missed.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by scify

*cough* On a change of topic, I'm now kicking myself for not recognizing the computer game/web page as a metaphor for the VN itself. Assuming I'm right, it'd be awesome if the player could actually use it to understand the paths in the VN. Might be beyond Ren'py's abilities, though.

Is more probably being beyond the programers's abilities then Ren'py's, actually. Actually, if we keep the the random symbols still, or at last moving robticly, it is kinda easy, I believe. It depends how many fancy effects Kaisos wants on it.

Originally Posted by scify

Also, starting to question my previous opinion on the Voices in Shadow and greentext. Still not sure what I think, though.

Pst then. It is interesting see what people think. (sinse I can't speculate by myself now).

By the way, in another change of subject, the player's pov is aways Kyon when Kyonko is nearby right? I am wondering if it might be a good idea keep changing during their dialogues.

Like, in the shoes lock scene, first Kyon arrives and say something to Kyonko. Then, we hear Kyonko's thought now and some more lines, then change to Kyon. The choices appear and just after we pick one it change back to Kyonko and so on...

Might be interesting to show both thoughts of the discussion, as we were playing both during the game. Don't really know if it would work though.

[Aebliss]

Ahem. Here to derail the topic some more: 'Suzumiya Haruki no Setsubun' will be coming to an end soon. At the very least, I'd like to compile the various chapters into one big document for easier reading. I'd love fanart to add to the thing. ^^ Is there anyone here of artistic inclinations who would like to make an illustration or two?

[Heatth]

A Makuro ilustration! It needs to be a Makuro ilustration! However, the few artist we have are kinda busy wth the VN, I believe?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Ahem. Here to derail the topic some more: 'Suzumiya Haruki no Setsubun' will be coming to an end soon. At the very least, I'd like to compile the various chapters into one big document for easier reading. I'd love fanart to add to the thing. ^^ Is there anyone here of artistic inclinations who would like to make an illustration or two?

Fucking A.

[Tyabann]

Hey guys, remember this request?

Off-the-current-topic:

Another "Lol Itsuko theorizing" scene is coming up in the VN... due to the responses last time, I thought I'd ask:

What random, yet relevant theories do you want to hear Itsuko spout out, for those who have been paying attention? Anything else you want to hear?

This is the Seitenkan Brigade's "We're Stuck in Another World, what the fuck is going on Meeting" so I'd love the help, if possible.

Please?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Well, this is kinda totally overlly gay.

Well then, if I'm capable of making a scene where Itsuko is intentionally presenting a scenario Kyonko won't like in order to get a more favorable result seem like something else entirely, I may be a much better writer than I thought when it comes to the character. Then again...

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

This made me think of another kind of befriending was going on.

... perhaps a Nanoha reference was a little counterproductive.

[vivify93]

Originally Posted by Kaisos

No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.

Heh, that's actually pretty good though. Man, I could picture myself in the Seitenkan Brigade.

Me: *sees Haruki staring at him with a sour look on his face*
Haruki: ...
Me: *sigh* What?
Haruki: You're fat.
Me: -_-
Kyonko: Welcome to the club.
Haruki: No, seriously, are all people in the West this fat? How the hell has America not collapsed into a black hole unto itself due to all the weight!?

I'll stop now.

Originally Posted by Also Kaisos

Boys and girls are different.

...Srsly? Wow, I thought the only difference between boys and girls is that boys liked beef and girls liked chicken!

Nyoro~n.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by vivify93

Me: *sees Haruki staring at him with a sour look on his face*
Haruki: ...
Me: *sigh* What?
Haruki: You're fat.
Me: -_-
Kyonko: Welcome to the club.
Haruki: No, seriously, are all people in the West this fat? How the hell has America not collapsed into a black hole unto itself due to all the weight!?

... Is it okay to laugh?

[vivify93]

Yes, Kogetsu, it's OK to laugh. It was intended to be moderately funny, at least.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Hey guys, remember this request?

Please?

This is the part where you people come to the aid of our writer yo.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Someone did provide a suggestion, though... then the name sidetracking happened. I really don't have much to offer in terms of random theorizing, so I can't really help in that regard.

[DJ_RockmanX]

I think Kaisos is looking for something along the lines of writeups. Something to go by and integrate into the scene. You know.