2010-08-23, 12:46 | Link #681 |
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We don't know. For instance, did Tohya's Alliance feature the 1998 scenes with Ange? Did they feature the meta-world scenes? Did Message Bottle #2 (assumed to be Turn) feature magic scenes, meta-scenes, both, neither? Did Tohya's Dawn feature herself, Ange, and Featherine?
It's as mysterious as the "real" world in the Umineko setting. Is the 1998 we see the real world or just another fiction? Is there only one future in the "Prime World?" Can the Rokkenjima Incident be prevented, or is it an absolute certainty and we're trying to peek inside the permanently sealed cat box? There's no clear explanation for that, but if it gets answered at all, it'll have to be in ep8.
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2010-08-23, 13:29 | Link #683 | |
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So, there is something I thought about. I know multiple personality disorder is largely frowned upon, because it is difficult to pull off without being totally ridiculous. But there is something in the fact that at one point or the other, Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon start fighting against each other. If we really asume Yasu-Shkannontrice, then there is something that came to my mind. Each personality forms a pair with one of the cousins. Battler - Yasu George - Shannon Jessica - Kanon Maria - Beatrice In Episode 4 there is a contest held, who becomes the next familyhead. Who is at the side of the next family head? Beatrice ... so couldn't it be, that similar to the pact of love from Episode 6, this is a battle to decide which personality has to right to exist? In Episode 2 it is always dress-wearing Beatrice who kills Shannon and Kanon. Thinking back, dress-Beatrice NEVER kills anybody else than Shannon and Kanon, doesn't she? This excludes Zombie-Kinzo of course. And we have Beatrice's very angry reaction at Shannon in Episode 2 who talks about love. In Episode 7, she also says that there would have been a small incident without Battler. So it could have been the battle of love between George and Jessica, but Battlers return triggered a greater battle. Maybe now Yasutrice also surfaced again and wants to have Battler... Yes, I agree that my own theory does nowhere nearly explain why the adults were killed at all, nor by whom they were killed. But maybe this is something worth considering in the light of Episode 7 EDIT: It would even fit Kanon's strange insisting, that he CANNOT love Jessica. Maybe he is constructed in a way, that the Kanon personality always takes a step down, so that Shannon can be in love with George. That would also explain why they have to battle in Episode 6, why Shannon still wins, why Kanon vanishes ... It would also explain Kanon's strange utterance in the basement in Episode 1, that, if Shannon was to die, he would take her place and crush Beatrice's game. Because now he has the right to become happy and be with Jessica.
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2010-08-23, 13:39 | Link #684 | ||||
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2010-08-23, 16:25 | Link #685 | |
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I love Yasu, so I'm happy to see the conversation has turned in her direction!
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If you look at the conversation Battler, Jessica, and George had about Maria and her "personalities" in EP1, I think that gives us a pretty big hint as to what is going on with Yasu. Likewise, "Evatrice" is also a very big hint. I don't think any of us would say that Maria and Eva have DID, so I don't think the term fits Yasu either. When we go through Yasu's story, due to the sprites, it might be sort of hard to keep in mind how old she really is, mentally, when all this is taking place. Claire is initially created when Yasu is probably around seven, eight, or nine years old, which is pretty normal. Think of Claire is to Yasu ("Shannon") as sort of like how MARIA is to Maria. It's not another personality, it's an idealization. Yasu basically "creates" two different types of characters. She creates imaginary friends, like Gaap and (imo) the first version Shannon. And then she also likes to reinvent her own mental image of herself. This is exactly what Maria does. She creates a powerful "persona" known as MARIA, but she also creates friends like Sakutaro. In EP6, it's mentioned that people eventually stop talking to and believing in imaginary friends. In Yasu's case, it's more like she mapped those two "friends" on to herself because she had reached their level. Remember, in the Claire scene, Yasu doesn't just become "Claire-Beatrice", she ALSO becomes "Shannon", usurping both the roles that used to be held by her "friends." This means she becomes capable of the "clever tricks" she used to assign to "Beatrice" and comes into her own "worth as a maid" she used to assign to "Shannon". Taken as one person, we have a young girl that can now finally do her job with relative ease when compared to before, but who also likes to play pranks on people. Yasu's story still has a lot of magic weaved into it. It makes perfect sense to me that we're not seeing a "real" story of an underage maid trying to make her life beautiful by pretending to be other people when she works, but instead actually see visual representations of what's going on. I think this also holds later in the story when it comes to love. If you look back in EP6, to the scene where Beatrice receives Battler's love, we see Yasu once again "shaping" a "role". Other people have mentioned that scene resembles the creation of a character. Imagine, if you will, a heartbroken Yasu in her room. We know she has some skill in drawing (well, compared to Maria), so she's sitting there drawing the person that is most worthy to hold Battler's affections. Drawing the blonde hair. Drawing the blue eyes. Imbuing this character with the rough and tumble personality that would suit Battler. And then, can we assume, this "character", like "Beatrice" and "Shannon" before them, also becomes, subconsciously, something to strive towards like they were? But the person that Yasu can become is limitless, right? There's no one path to happiness. Perhaps, Yasu will find a quiet sort of happiness with George. George seems interested, why not pursue that option? And, well, Jessica is sort of attractive, even if Yasu doesn't really want to admit it. Well, it might be best to close that avenue down...but, you can't clamp down on interest entirely, right? So what we end up with is a girl that tends to change roles depending on what she's doing and who she's with. A game that got out of hand and will probably hurt someone down the line, but also what Yasu sees as her best avenue for happiness. I think there is a reason why Zepar and Furfur, rather than insisting that "two bodies are needed for love" (in other words, the problem is that all these personalities can't have control over the same body) keep on insisting that it's a crime for a single "body" to love more than one person (in other words, Yasu has created a bad situation through her pursuit of happiness by falling for more than one person). In that respect, it also makes sense that the Love Trial is basically a simple set up of "well, who has the most love"? (Who does Yasu love the most?) Because if they were really three personalities, there would be full three people, even if they shared a body. There are also other little things that make me think this way. As I'm playing through EP1, noting Kanon and Shannon's reactions to Battler are interesting because they're so similar. The slightest unexpected attention from Battler throws them off. They become hesitant and confused, unsure of what to say. This only makes sense if they are both just Yasu playing a part. If they were truly separate people from Yasu, there is no reason to get flustered when Battler so much as says hello. We even have Shannon rather strongly denying interest in George when Battler teases her about it, but the feeling is that it just sort of comes out of her mouth unintended. I also think it's pretty easy to see through "magic" scenes and imagine Yasu as one person during them, especially during EP7 when we're going through the last parts of the flashback. There, especially, Shannon and Kanon seem sort of one-dimensional. It is Yasu-Beatrice that really feels alive and real, especially after she finds the gold and is brought to Kinzo. Well, as for what drove Yasu to murder? In the end of the EP7, we see Yasu saying that she'll have questions later, but right now she's trying to take everything in. It also seems pretty obvious to me that Yasu identifies as female. Even Kanon is her "younger brother", not exactly a part of herself. More like Sakutaro than MARIA, in other words. So, finding out that she is technically XY instead of XX...well, to someone who always believed that they could just remake themselves out of unhappiness, that would be a horrifically cruel blow, wouldn't it?
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2010-08-23, 16:29 | Link #686 | |
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2010-08-23, 16:42 | Link #687 | |
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2010-08-23, 16:44 | Link #688 | |
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If I were to take a guesss I would say that Kanon's original purpose was to hurt Jessica. Jessica seemed to be in desperate search of boyfriend since she entered highschool and didn't care much if she actually loved him (maybe she actually did care about it but Yasu never noticed) idealistic Yasu though that was a disgrace (insulting her feelings for Battler), also Battler had mentioned how much Jessica was his type. Furthermore Jessica was on the island the whole time and didn't seem to help Yasu at all. So Yasu created Kanon to hurt her, that was also the reason to reject her but along the way of getting closer to her Kanon/Yasu developed slight feelings of attraction/love for her.
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2010-08-23, 16:57 | Link #689 | |||
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2. In EP7, Yasu obviously wants to get into contact with Battler, but doesn't tell anyone about it. Since no one knows that Yasu is in love with Battler, then no one is in the position of helping her with her problem. 3. Attributing actions to something doesn't mean they are actually doing them, unless you think Gaap-Beatrice is a person and is literally moving the brush and taunting Yasu in the chapel during EP7. Quote:
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The Yasu we see in the flashback isn't really cruel. I would find it hard to believe that she would go to the trouble to create a character to deliberately torment Jessica, who she has no real issue with.
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2010-08-23, 17:08 | Link #690 |
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Yeah, but neither do I see any rationale, justification, or even any particular desire to cause a mass murder of any kind from this person. They seem very akin to Leon all the way up to 2 years prior, and Leon does not seem at all the sort with that inclination.
So something would have to very drastically change within the span of two years, but not so drastically and permanently that any delay past 1986 would be irrelevant. If the outcome is potentially able to change as much as one year forward or back (whatever that outcome is), why is 1986 the flashpoint? I've never been able to read "Beatrice" as the culprit and I still can't.
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2010-08-23, 17:16 | Link #691 | |
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Notice the list of hurdles Shannon has on her way to contact Battler. Pretty much anyone else would overcome them trivially. This is not beyond the means of Shannon herself either -- a great witch would devise the strong magic of ...returning him a book with a love letter glued in, or something. Two words, "Call me" would do. If she can't bring herself to do anything to make her dream come true, does she really deserve it? Really, truly? Is she really as serious and struggling as she tells us? But that is beside the point -- why doesn't anyone help? Sure, they don't know. But Gaap, if she is in any way a complete character and not a person in one scene and an imaginary friend in another, (and then we can't tell which) definitely can. Which essentially means it doesn't mean anything.
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2010-08-23, 17:25 | Link #692 | |
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2010-08-23, 17:45 | Link #693 | ||
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1. Does Yasu have a book that needs to be returned to him in the first place? Yasu is not an idiot. If she had an excuse to find out anything about Battler, she would have taken it. She even thinks as much to herself. 2. Presuming such a book exists and Yasu is an idiot. How is Yasu going to return a book to him in the first place? Even if she had been able to get Rudolf's address, that won't help her get Battler's because he's already moved to a different place. 3. Her only human allies are servants that are only connected directly to the island. Even if she works up the courage to ask Genji or Kumasawa for their assistance, do you really think they're going to approve and help her out with this? For one thing, Genji is basically keeping Yasu there on purpose, to see if Kinzo will figure it out and not go into rape-mode. Helping her pursue an ultimately fruitless crush that goes directly against his own plans isn't something he's going to leap to do. Kumasawa is a better bet, but still limited in her ability to help. No matter how skilled she is, as Yasu points out, it looks WEIRD for a servant to ask for a guest's current address. 4. Yasu is ten years old. The oldest we see her in the flashbacks is fourteen. Why on earth are you being judgmental over the decision process of a child? Why are you saying a child in this situation should only be deserving of happiness if they show the mental fortitude and intelligence of an adult? Yes, getting a phone number or address would be easy for me or you in that situation. However, I am not a ten year old little girl, struggling with the idea of asserting myself to people whose job it is to boss me around. What you are saying is like blaming Sakutaro for not "saving" Maria. Gaap has no influence on reality.
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2010-08-23, 17:56 | Link #694 | |
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I never really intended to say that Yasu's issue was simple.^^
At that moment I simply didn't want to write a long post, and based on my previous posts in this thread, I thought most people would understood what I mean. But, either way, that was my mistake. I agree with most of the things you've said, but we've also got to remember Yasu is very aware all those other characters are not real. This was made rather clear when she found the gold and Genji showed up. As for her issue with her body. I've heard several theories. One of the is that she found out she's Battler's relative, and thus she believes she's unable to love him, and she doesn't want to become like Kinzo either. Another one is that she's intersexual. And another one is that her genitals were damaged after the fall. Personally, I think the last one makes sense when couple with the fact Yasu was stated to have a late growth. Now, whether Yasu is male or female I don't know. Your theory on Yasu seeming to think she's a girl and then finding out she's a male sort of makes sense. But well, Yasu's speech when she's not taking any roles has always been gender neutral. Yasu has only used a female way of speaking whenever she plays the role of a witch or Shannon. That, and Yasu created Kanon before solving the Epitaph, meaning that Yasu was already playing male roles before finding out whatever (s)he found out after solving the Epitaph. In addition to all of this, I don't think this was the sole reason why all of these events are happening. Personally, as I've said before, I believe something must have occurred between the time Yasu solved the Epitaph and the family conference of 1986. I'm sure 1985 is a crucial year. Quote:
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2010-08-23, 18:08 | Link #695 | |||||||
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So what will Genji do if Kinzo figures it out and then goes into rape-mode anyway? Genji would be powerless to prevent it. Think about it for a minute. Quote:
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2010-08-23, 18:09 | Link #696 | |||||
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The only things we really know of are that Shannon and George were growing closer, right? But I really hesitate to try to dump all Yasu's woes on that slender piece of evidence, especially since, as I said, I don't believe Yasu has DID.
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2010-08-23, 18:21 | Link #697 | |||||||
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1. Yasu's age. 2. Want to keep her on the island as long as possible. 3. They know that it's incest. Quote:
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2010-08-23, 18:35 | Link #698 | ||
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Remember, when Yasu had that breakdown, Yasu referred to her body as a "body that can no longer love". This being the reason why she said a person like herself/himself cannot be called human, but furniture. Quote:
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2010-08-23, 18:37 | Link #699 | ||
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As far as I can tell, it wasn't.
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...Now that's when you start having to dip Genji and Kumasawa in the mud to cover that interpretation of Yasu. Quote:
It's easy to blame Genji because his real character is almost undetailed and his motivations are not known. But there's the same problem as with "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo." Eventually, there's no evil you cannot blame on the character you don't really know. Might as well say this is Genji's gamble and Yasu is really his child, that would at least make certain sense. I don't mean just the general "police". Local police. The people who are charged with knowing who in their district has a heart disease in that country. In particular, Kumasawa definitely can get Rudolf's location and Asumu's maiden name, if she doesn't know these already. This isn't something knocking on a few doors wouldn't solve.
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2010-08-23, 18:44 | Link #700 | ||
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