Medaka Box [Manga]

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

^
Well, then I guess it turns out that they have an opinion. Let them be. And I'm not saying root for Ajimu either. I'm just not satisfied with using simple "villain" and "hero" logic as a reason to oppose her. Though she's definitely manipulative, it's not like she hasn't made any rational points.

I don't know how this keeps coming back to character preferences either. I don't enjoy Kumagawa that much, and you've made it clear you don't enjoy Zenkichi. That's fine. I actually tend to enjoy the main character, even if they're not my favorite. But you can't just complain about people analyzing a character in a way you dislike.

There's nothing wrong with rooting for a villain, or liking them more than a main character. The only point is you should have enough common sense to recognize that the villain really is a villain (i.e., in the context of the series, someone destined to lose or proven bad/evil/wrong).

Was Kumagawa a villain? Yeah. But he was also awesome, emotionally complex, and incredibly relatable. If you still hated Kumagawa by the time of his President's match against Medaka, you were doing it wrong. In the same way, Ajimu is just as amusingly awesome and intellectually relatable to be worth cheering for. But this doesn't change the fact that she's a villain that Medaka has to beat someday.


About Medaka being a Minus. Not strictly, no, but in a way it's not wrong. Remember that Minuses are said to be a product of the environment. Meanwhile Abnormalities are an inherent development of the personality itself. Medaka is an abnormal, but it's true that Medaka's abnormality is something which is strongly reflective of her environment. So in some ways it's true that Medaka looks potentially very similar to a Minus. But at the same time there are fundamental reasons she's not.

People are just harping on the Minus thing because of Naze's comment about Medaka now being able to control Minuses, lol. I have to ask, again, though, what exactly about Medaka's behaviour in this chapter makes her seem like she's not her usual victorious/elevating self. Being able to take control of Minuses without turning into one is just natural for Medaka, isn't it? Back when Maguro started talking about them being Medaka's weakness and that she must never be exposed to them, I knew that was bullshit that would never hold. lol, Naze and Maguro are out of the loop 'cause we were told Medaka finished her 'Evilize' training like 20 chapters ago (naturally though, given that in fact those 20 chapters are still taking place over one day, it's not a big deal).

[Takigashima]

It's not so much the fact she can use a minus ability (part of it is a deciding factor).
But her personality is changing with it, she is laughing off things that she would normally take seriously.
The way she is also uncaring about beating a person to a pulp with no rhyme or reason is also cause for concern. She may still want friends, but she herself has been pushing them away.

[Sol Falling]

Like having all her bones broken? But Medaka was just as casual about something like that as far back as the Unzen battle.

Medaka does superhuman things, then laughs off her own specialness or amazing abilities. In a way, this is consistent with her drive to continually improve herself. In contrast to Miyakonojou, who was self-centred and believed that he was the ultimate abnormal/human in existence, Medaka's humility is in fact something which cements her as a plus.

I don't see why there should be a fuss about beating up Tsurubami either. It was a fight, right? Look what Tsurubami did to her first. "I just wanted to eat shoes a bit and look what I end up", lol. He got all up in her shit, challenged her, then belittled her when he had the advantage. Beating a guy like that down (and then even healing him) is not "pushing a friend away". That Medaka turned it all around cheerfully is very much what I'd call Plus behaviour.

[kenjtr]

well actually medakas last action was just like kumagawa , she beats hipster then says she cant do anything without her friends which she said there was none also she was alone .

i actually dont like kumagawa cause he used incredible violence on a girl cause i dont like torture but some people may enjoy it . i like zenkichi its more of a prefence there is no reason needed , just like zenkichi i dont trust kumagawa too .

i think all cards are playing to kumagawas hands with things happening also he has the memory medaka and zenkichi dont so i think we can never trust him .

[yuzen003]

At this point I'm not even sure what defines an abnormal as a plus or a minus considering Weighted Words warped Oudo's personality while Encounter erased any changes to Gagamaru's personality (because he would push away any experience that might change him) and both have positive uses. The Five Forks seems like a plus since it can cure any illness, but The End can cause the user to casually destroys people's hopes and dreams by trumping them in their specialties as she did when she was a child so it's not exactly a 100% positive ability. Just curious but what would you say is the fundamental reason Medaka is not a minus?

Medaka's overpowered abnormality actually gives Zen a means of defeating her, he simply has to compete on who can do a better job teaching or training other people to accomplish their goals. Zenkichi has achieved what he has through hard work so he should be able to comprehend the flaws and stumbling blocks of normal people. Medaka literally cannot understand failure or being unable to do something, example teaching people how to fill out test sheets because she couldn't comprehend any other reason to get the wrong answer. While Medaka will be able to accomplish any tasks set before her she can't pass it to others because she can't figure out that they don't instinctively have the abilities she does. It would also bring the series back to the original idea of the suggestion box while being a goal where Medaka would want to win but Zenkichi actually has a chance to beat her.

[Takigashima]

Wasn't talking about tsurubame as a friend.
Her improving herself is a noble thing, but it's when she starts doing things that are not Medaka like that we are seeing now.
She attacks a person Without provocation and when he challenges her "new mode" and beats her, she resorts in kind to beating him with in an inch of his life (figure of speech), then laughs it off as if it was just a friendly game of cards.
Normal people don't do that, not would have old Medaka, she would have tried talking it out to see why he was there, like a minus, she went for shoot now, care later.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

At this point I'm not even sure what defines an abnormal as a plus or a minus considering Weighted Words warped Oudo's personality while Encounter erased any changes to Gagamaru's personality (because he would push away any experience that might change him) and both have positive uses. The Five Forks seems like a plus since it can cure any illness, but The End can cause the user to casually destroys people's hopes and dreams by trumping them in their specialties as she did when she was a child so it's not exactly a 100% positive ability. Just curious but what would you say is the fundamental reason Medaka is not a minus?

Weighted Words didn't warp Miyakanojou's personality. It was a fundamental expression of it. Miyakanojou believed he was destined to be King even before he received his abnormality. Did Miyakanojou have intentions to be a good and benevolent ruler? Sure. But when after 6 years the first words to come out of his mouth were "Bow before me", that's because that's what he was really thinking.

As for Gagamaru, his Minus didn't prevent changes to his personality--in fact it made it so he had no personality. Pushing his suffering/unpleasant experiences onto others wasn't something that came to him naturally; in fact one of the things he had to push away was the guilt about it. We didn't get any background on how his Minus emerged from his environment, but it could easily be assumed at some point in time he lived in a situation where he could push his responsibilities/negative consequences onto others.

The difference between a Minus and an Abnormality is exactly: 1. The source of a Minus or abnormality: one comes from the environment, while the other comes from personality; and 2. The effect of a Minus or abnormality: one affects the people around you, while the other affects you yourself. Of course the ideas of "yourself" and "others" are connected, but you have to be able to make that distinction.

For example, why was Munakata not a Minus? Well, one: his irrational desire to kill people came from his own personality, not an environment that exposed him to such behaviour; and two, his desire to kill people never actually affected other people, only himself.

Similarly: Medaka's ability to observe/understand/complete anything came from her own personality, not her environment (Medaka had a lot of tutors, but they came after people found out she was a prodigy, not before; and while libraries and tutors of course encourage learning, they cannot encourage learning to the extent of far surpassing the tutors themselves). Two, the person who directly changes/improves as a result of Medaka's abnormality is Medaka herself; sure, as in the case of Medaka's tutors, people might get discouraged--but, as in the case of Medaka's enemies, they might also be encouraged to better themselves.

The reason Medaka is an Abnormal and not a Minus is that even if Medaka became a harm to others based on being exposed to someone harmful, as soon as she was exposed to someone who helped others again she would go back to being a Plus. Moreover, Medaka is constantly building a network and exposing herself to other people's influences (i.e. improving herself). In the past Medaka's only influence was just Zenkichi, essentially making his existence the sole thing making her a Plus. However, now that Medaka has been exposed to and influenced by countless people who have become her allies, she is no longer dependent on just one factor to maintain her positive self.

Medaka's overpowered abnormality actually gives Zen a means of defeating her, he simply has to compete on who can do a better job teaching or training other people to accomplish their goals. Zenkichi has achieved what he has through hard work so he should be able to comprehend the flaws and stumbling blocks of normal people. Medaka literally cannot understand failure or being unable to do something, example teaching people how to fill out test sheets because she couldn't comprehend any other reason to get the wrong answer. While Medaka will be able to accomplish any tasks set before her she can't pass it to others because she can't figure out that they don't instinctively have the abilities she does. It would also bring the series back to the original idea of the suggestion box while being a goal where Medaka would want to win but Zenkichi actually has a chance to beat her.

While a contest of who can teach someone better would be quite interesting, Medaka is no longer a person who can't understand failure or being weak. She already overcome that through being exposed to Kumagawa. I think the idea that "Zenkichi can understand people better than Medaka can" might be a pretty arrogant strategy that would fail in the end.

If there is one thing where Medaka is not absolute as a Main Character, I guess it would in fact be her humility, or lack of confidence that she is always/completely right. Medaka was described as "constantly changing" back in the Flask Plan arc; while that can be seen as a strength in terms of ever-continuing self-improvement, it could also be seen as a weakness in that she is never complete. Before Parasite Seeing, Zenkichi was in fact described as "never changing", and in fact Naze made a note of it--that the reason she was helping Zenkichi, was because someone who had never changed for 13 years, had finally decided to change. Arguably though, in order to regain his "special" place to Medaka and become a more "absolute" existence who could replace her as a Main Character, perhaps what Zenkichi needs to do is in fact to go back to being a character who can be said to truly never change.


edit:

Originally Posted by Takigashima

Wasn't talking about tsurubame as a friend.
Her improving herself is a noble thing, but it's when she starts doing things that are not Medaka like that we are seeing now.
She attacks a person Without provocation and when he challenges her "new mode" and beats her, she resorts in kind to beating him with in an inch of his life (figure of speech), then laughs it off as if it was just a friendly game of cards.
Normal people don't do that, not would have old Medaka, she would have tried talking it out to see why he was there, like a minus, she went for shoot now, care later.

Medaka going immediately for a straight-up battle isn't Minus behaviour. The Minus avoid fights because they always lose, and instead try to trap or torture their opponent. It is not "care later" because Medaka knows her opponent can take it (her full strength). Just as she knows she herself can take whatever they are serving. To Medaka, fighting against other people really is (generally) a friendly activity. And she has been this way since at least as early as the fight against Takegashima.

Medaka's behaviour is because she is strong, that people who bear ill-will towards her really don't matter to her. She wants to help and/or save them anyway. That isn't Minus. That's Plus. Unlike the Minus, Medaka (at least as she is now after having come to terms with Kumagawa) would never try to actually hurt anybody.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Unlike the Minus, Medaka (at least as she is now after having come to terms with Kumagawa) would never try to actually hurt anybody.

"Never try to actually hurt anybody"? She's one of the most brutal shounen "heroes" in all manga! And I guess when she supposedly murdered hipster's father, she wasn't trying to hurt him then either.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by MD84

"Never try to actually hurt anybody"? She's one of the most brutal shounen "heroes" in all manga! And I guess when she supposedly murdered hipster's father, she wasn't trying to hurt him then either.

To be fair, we don't the situation behind that yet.

[kenjtr]

Sol falling your defence medaka against everyone is almost like worship lvl , its like you dont see the fact because of your love over that character .

First i actually never tought medaka was a main character also from this moment its impossible to zenkichi go back where he was since medaka throwed her away . Dont get me wrong i understand medaka , she was using zenkichi all along like an accecory and when he became useless she throwed him away . i also dont blame medaka since thats her nature , its zenkichis fault that he wasnt able to notice this before .

Medaka was always harsh on zenkichi and always taken her enemys side when zenkichi was the righteus one all the time , what i mean is medaka and zenkichis logics dont connect so even if zenkichi return where medaka is , there is nothing there for him .

i also dont think zenkichis actions are wrong since all men wants to be strong thats our nature well in the first place it was medaka who unsealed ajimu with making kumagawa happy so she has no right to complain . medaka always looks for strong oponents thats her reason to live in the first place , if you make a thesis like ill make everyone happy there will be an anti thesis so clash is inevitable .

also medaka threatened zenkichi if you go agains me you can die ( cicadas die in 7 days if they got cocky ) so she is a tyrant not that she denies it . medaka kills people if they got in her way thats natural for her she doesnt value human life .

The reason medaka zenkichi helped medaka all this time was because medaka pestered him and said she needed him , but on the other side zenkichi always questioned how medaka does things in his conscience .

i dont think zenkichi turning against medaka is bethrayal its just his way of life and belive , medaka needs to be supervised or she vill become worst villain the world will see so zenkichi is protecting world at the same time while oppressing medaka .

[Last Carpet]

OK, I've been thinking.

Medaka's always been about "being born to make other people happy", and "trying to save everyone". I wonder how she views her fight with Zenkichi. I don't think she can make him happy in this sort of situation, and it's fairly clear that he's not the one who needs saving here.

I've been bouncing ideas about how she can understand failure, when a thought struck me.

Maybe Zen should just give up. Give up on the idea of Medaka ever returning his feelings, and on the thought ever becoming special to her.

Hear me out.

He's become her enemy because he wants to become special to her, and being special to her is what would make him happy. But if he gives up on her, if he accepts that he'll never be special to her, and moves on to someone else, she'll have failed to make him happy.It would go against everything she believes herself to be capable of.

Think about what happened with Misogi in Middle School, when she tried to help him but he proved that he was beyond her influence. She snapped and nearly beat him to death, but only after she calmed down did she realize that she didn't actually do anything positive for him. Which, according to Zen's record of their past, left her feeling crushed.

I know that doesn't really sound like the right way out, but maybe that's how he can make her understand how it feels to fail.

It's just a thought.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by MD84

"Never try to actually hurt anybody"? She's one of the most brutal shounen "heroes" in all manga! And I guess when she supposedly murdered hipster's father, she wasn't trying to hurt him then either.

Medaka beats people up, but it's for their own good. There's no malice in her actions, it's totally friendly. In particular, now that she's gained control over her "Beast" mode, she will no longer fall into hatred. The despair and murderous intent which she showed against Unzen and first learned from her fight against Kumagawa are completely behind her.

If Medaka really did murder Hipster-kun's father, then yeah she probably did it to hurt him. Medaka was a monster who used to be cornered, of course if she was provoked she would bite back. No difference at all really from her battle with Unzen. But the Medaka as she is now, post-Minus arc, has fully determined that her goal is to help everybody--even her worst and most natural enemies. Not only that, she's so strong now, she's practically untouchable. How could anyone actually hurt her anymore, and why would she ever hate or want to hurt anybody ever again? It's only natural that she treated her fight with Hipster-kun as a friendly battle.

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

OK, I've been thinking.

Medaka's always been about "being born to make other people happy", and "trying to save everyone". I wonder how she views her fight with Zenkichi. I don't think she can make him happy in this sort of situation, and it's fairly clear that he's not the one who needs saving here.

I've been bouncing ideas about how she can understand failure, when a thought struck me.

Maybe Zen should just give up. Give up on the idea of Medaka ever returning his feelings, and on the thought ever becoming special to her.

Hear me out.

He's become her enemy because he wants to become special to her, and being special to her is what would make him happy. But if he gives up on her, if he accepts that he'll never be special to her, and moves on to someone else, she'll have failed to make him happy.It would go against everything she believes herself to be capable of.

Think about what happened with Misogi in Middle School, when she tried to help him but he proved that he was beyond her influence. She snapped and nearly beat him to death, but only after she calmed down did she realize that she didn't actually do anything positive for him. Which, according to Zen's record of their past, left her feeling crushed.

I know that doesn't really sound like the right way out, but maybe that's how he can make her understand how it feels to fail.

It's just a thought.

You're contradicting yourself in your very premise. You just said that Kumagawa left Medaka feeling crushed. Why would Medaka need Zenkichi to do that again?

In the first place, a Minus can't be the main character. I already said it, if both parties fail, then by definition there's no victor. Zenkichi can't win, so he makes Medaka fail with him? So righteous, right?

Ajimu said herself this time that Zenkichi's goal isn't to hurt Medaka. His goal is to beat her. Making himself a failure so that Medaka by extension fails is just about as wrong as you can get.

What you guys need to get through your heads is that after the Minus arc, Medaka does understand failure. She knows all about it, and can perfectly understand those people's experiences. Kumagawa knows more about failure than Zenkichi ever has, and he did his damned best to teach Medaka about it. It's because he succeeded that he even agreed to work with her in the first place. This arc is not about "reforming" Medaka or "teaching her failure" or anything. It's about stealing the Main Character h4x and spotlight away from her, probably because Ajimu believes that that h4x is the one thing in the end that determines whether you are happy.

[Last Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka beats people up, but it's for their own good. There's no malice in her actions, it's totally friendly. In particular, now that she's gained control over her "Beast" mode, she will no longer fall into hatred. The despair and murderous intent which she showed against Unzen and first learned from her fight against Kumagawa are completely behind her.

If Medaka really did murder Hipster-kun's father, then yeah she probably did it to hurt him. Medaka was a monster who used to be cornered, of course if she was provoked she would bite back. No difference at all really from her battle with Unzen. But the Medaka as she is now, post-Minus arc, has fully determined that her goal is to help everybody--even her worst and most natural enemies. Not only that, she's so strong now, she's practically untouchable. How could anyone actually hurt her anymore, and why would she ever hate or want to hurt anybody ever again? It's only natural that she treated her fight with Hipster-kun as a friendly battle.




You're contradicting yourself in your very premise. You just said that Kumagawa left Medaka feeling crushed. Why would Medaka need Zenkichi to do that again?

In the first place, a Minus can't be the main character. I already said it, if both parties fail, then by definition there's no victor. Zenkichi can't win, so he makes Medaka fail with him? So righteous, right?

Ajimu said herself this time that Zenkichi's goal isn't to hurt Medaka. His goal is to beat her. Making himself a failure so that Medaka by extension fails is just about as wrong as you can get.

What you guys need to get through your heads is that after the Minus arc, Medaka does understand failure. She knows all about it, and can perfectly understand those people's experiences. Kumagawa knows more about failure than Zenkichi ever has, and he did his damned best to teach Medaka about it. It's because he succeeded that he even agreed to work with her in the first place. This arc is not about "reforming" Medaka or "teaching her failure" or anything. It's about stealing the Main Character h4x and spotlight away from her, because Ajimu believes that that h4x is the one thing that determines whether you're happy.

I only used Misogi and Medaka's face off in Middle School as an example. I'm not saying anything about him becoming the new MC.

What I'm saying is that would be one way to make Medaka feel like she's failed. A way that Zen could make Medaka feel defeat in a way that would get through to her. I said before that becoming special to Medaka is what would make him happy.If he fails to become special to her, she'll have failed to make him happy. She'll have failed to do the one thing she feels that she was born to do.

What could feel like more of a defeat to Medaka than trying to make someone, who was once her most precious person, happy and failing? Like what happened in Middle School with Misogi.

[yuzen003]

I disagree with the claim Medaka understands failure or even human frailty. I don't think you can learn what failure feels like by watching someone else fail and Medaka has never failed, she may have had a pyrrhic victory as was the case with middle school Kumagawa but she won the fight which was her immediate goal. She may understand weakness at least in the sence of imperfect strength/intelligence/etc. by switching to Forsaken God mode, but even when she was reduced to Kumagawa level she still won. Medaka still has not lost, ever, so I'm not sure how beating Kumagawa to the point of submission taught her about failure.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

I only used Misogi and Medaka's face off in Middle School as an example. I'm not saying anything about him becoming the new MC.

What I'm saying is that would be one way to make Medaka feel like she's failed. A way that Zen could make Medaka feel defeat in a way that would get through to her. I said before that becoming special to Medaka is what would make him happy. Imagine if they fight and, whatever the result, he gives up on trying to be special to her, she'll have failed to make him happy. She'll have failed to do the one thing she feels that she was born to do.

What could feel like more of a defeat to Medaka than trying to make someone, who was once her most precious person, happy and failing? Like what happened
in Middle School with Misogi.

How would Zenkichi failing "get through" to Medaka in any way more than Kumagawa did? Just because he was a close friend of hers? Just because he supposedly "cared" for her?

I'll repeat again, Ajimu's message in this chapter (125) was that the point is not to make Medaka feel failure (or hurt her in anyway). The point is to make Medaka feel like she's lost, i.e. "Zenkichi is better than me". This does not have to be something Medaka feels bad about. This does not have to have anything to do with changing her personality. It's just about making Medaka give her Main Character position to someone else. In shounen mangas, there are always plenty of sub-characters (apparently) happy with being a side-story. Ajimu's plot is about making Medaka a happily inconsequential side-character, so someone else can take the stage.

[Last Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

How would Zenkichi failing "get through" to Medaka in any way more than Kumagawa did? Just because he was a close friend of hers? Just because he supposedly "cared" for her?

I'll repeat again, Ajimu's message in this chapter (125) was that the point is not to make Medaka feel failure (or hurt her in anyway). The point is to make Medaka feel like she's lost, i.e. "Zenkichi is better than me". This does not have to be something Medaka feels bad about. This does not have to have anything to do with changing her personality. It's just about making Medaka give her Main Character position to someone else. In shounen mangas, there are always plenty of sub-characters (apparently) happy with being a side-story. Ajimu's plot is about making Medaka a happily inconsequential side-character, so someone else can take the stage.

I'm saying that failing to make him happy is what would make an impact on her.

[Takigashima]

Last Carpet, I like your theory. But you will not win against sol purely because he/she worships Medaka.
It's a lost cause

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka beats people up, but it's for their own good. There's no malice in her actions, it's totally friendly. In particular, now that she's gained control over her "Beast" mode, she will no longer fall into hatred. The despair and murderous intent which she showed against Unzen and first learned from her fight against Kumagawa are completely behind her.

Someone who can beat people to near death without feeling any malice or anger is creepy. I can understand people who beat up others out of anger or malice -- that's normal. And even if it was a "friendly" beating, it certainly looked like it hurt. The phrases "beats people up" and "never try actually hurt anybody" just don't mesh. Granted, plenty of other heroes in fiction beat up people for their own good too, but there's usually some anger mixed in too.

Medaka's treatment of Zenkichi probably was necessary to make him get out of her shadow. But "necessary" isn't always the same as "good" or "right". And I still think she could have found a better way to help him.

Right now, I just want to know what Zenkichi will think is a good way to truly defeat Medaka, and how the unconventional Skill he wanted will help with that.

[Takigashima]

That's why Medaka does not understand people.
She tries to talk it out with enemies, but beats up her friends. No logic there

[evil|plushie]

Sure, people beat other people up all the time for their own good. Parents do it to children. Husbands do it to wives. -_- It's so nice to know Medaka falls into the same category. After all, it's all in the name of love. That excuses everything right?