Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 35 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Wow... just wow... let's start with the comment about receiving EM. Telescopes can't see through planets, and I'd be dispoint in the Vagan if they were in obvious view of Earth.

Except they started out as a normal colony, not a stealthed military base. And even if they had, in 200 years, there should have been plenty of times their settlement faced Earth, and provided ample signs of activity. Do you know what our own planet looks like from space?

From the way they were talking in Gen. 2, they’d never even seen Earth up close, so that obviously tells us Earth was just as blind to Vagan’s view as the Vagan were to Earth. Next is radio. This isn’t the sloppy tech of the 30s, you know. Radio waves are a lot harder to pick up, much less intercept now than they were, especially with things like laser communication already being developed. Even then, with the rise of stealth technology it’s even more difficult for radar to pick up signals even on Earth, let alone something as far away as Mars. Furthermore, I’ll point you to Gen 1. Grodek explicitly stated the UE’s stealth technology bent the EM spectrum around it and made the Fa Bose… wait for it… undetectable. I’d be even more dispoint with the UE if they could only apply their stealth tech to ships.

That only goes for after the Vagans decided to go into hiding and redesigned their whole infrastructure for stealth.

You’re right, they were still doing weapons design. After the Vagan had started attacking them. It’s pretty difficult to say the EF were still doing weapons research when there was such an obvious regression in MS tech, particularly if the Vagan are only using a mere fraction of the EXA-DB. If someone in the EF had never stopped doing weapons research, the Vagan would have been crushed the moment they showed up. It would have been the most massive curb-stomp battle you’ve ever seen, and we wouldn’t have a show.



This is where you really lose me. At what point is every single technological advance the result of military research? Are you saying that if we shut down the Department of Defense tomorrow, stem cell research wouldn’t continue? That rockety and jet propulsion wouldn’t advance beyond today? That better computers wouldn’t be built or more efficient power plants would never even be put down on paper? A weapon = technology, but technology = weapon. Military research is responsible for a lot of the conveniences we enjoy today, but to say it’s impossible for humanity’s technological base to advance without weapons research is disingenuous. There is a very explicit line between technologies which can be used as a weapon if needed and technologies whose only purpose is as a weapon.

What he's saying is that tech advances in civilian fields will translate to advances in the military one. You can't stop one without stopping the other.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except they started out as a normal colony, not a stealthed military base. And even if they had, in 200 years, there should have been plenty of times their settlement faced Earth, and provided ample signs of activity. Do you know what our own planet looks like from space?

If the Vagan colony was in a stable orbit around Mars, it would be easy enough to hide in its shadow. What seems to be the actual settlements on Mars seem to have been kept at a level which doesn't go out of it's way to create EM emissions, so it would make sense that nothing like a power supply or constant communications was detected. And I always got the feeling the Vagan poured their entire tech-base into their military tech anyway.

That only goes for after the Vagans decided to go into hiding and redesigned their whole infrastructure for stealth.

The Vagan didn't go out of their way to announce themselves to the EF until they started attacking them, and them getting ahold of a portion of the EXA-DB without the EF knowing points to stealth being a rather high priority. In episode 34, the Vagan were able to scout the Diva without it even knowing, and it seemed to be not even the Bisidian knew the Vagan were they until they showed up.

What he's saying is that tech advances in civilian fields will translate to advances in the military one. You can't stop one without stopping the other.

You can; you just have to prevent a military-industrial complex from developing. The Federation itself stopping government-led weapons research, and a crack-down on private contractors and paramilitary groups, would be sufficient to stop any large-scale weapons development. Any private attempts to acquire the materials to build weapons can easily be monitored and traced. It's difficult, but not impossible.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

If the Vagan colony was in a stable orbit around Mars, it would be easy enough to hide in its shadow. What seems to be the actual settlements on Mars seem to have been kept at a level which doesn't go out of it's way to create EM emissions, so it would make sense that nothing like a power supply or constant communications was detected. And I always got the feeling the Vagan poured their entire tech-base into their military tech anyway.

Again, they started as a colony. Not a dastardly plan to kill everyone on Earth.

The Vagan didn't go out of their way to announce themselves to the EF until they started attacking them, and them getting ahold of a portion of the EXA-DB without the EF knowing points to stealth being a rather high priority. In episode 34, the Vagan were able to scout the Diva without it even knowing, and it seemed to be not even the Bisidian knew the Vagan were they until they showed up.

You don't need to go out of your way. Just living is being a bright light where there should be none.

You can; you just have to prevent a military-industrial complex from developing. The Federation itself stopping government-led weapons research, and a crack-down on private contractors and paramilitary groups, would be sufficient to stop any large-scale weapons development. Any private attempts to acquire the materials to build weapons can easily be monitored and traced. It's difficult, but not impossible.

Even in civilian engineering, you always need better materials, better computers, better energy sources, better engines - that will translate to better weapons on an instant's notice.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Again, they started as a colony. Not a dastardly plan to kill everyone on Earth.

They don't have to. If the colony was put in the shadow of the planet, that's less material you have to devote to EM shielding from the sun and any cosmic rays that might pose a danger. The sickness that the Vagan developed was because of exposure to EM in Mars' magnetic field, so obviously they weren't very shielded to begin with.

You don't need to go out of your way. Just living is being a bright light where there should be none.

Again, it depends on how you position the colony. If it was an attempt to settle on Mars itself, then they'd settle at the areas with warmer temperatures. The areas near the equator reach temperatures of up to 86 degrees, and while not completely masking body heat signatures, they wouldn't be as glaringly obvious as if they were at the poles. The heat from the colony, again, could be easily hidden by Mars' shadow.

Even in civilian engineering, you always need better materials, better computers, better energy sources, better engines - that will translate to better weapons on an instant's notice.

It will, but they don't become weapons until you put them all together, and that can't be done overnight, especially if the Federation is keeping a very tight reign on the most crucial parts of the economic sectors, either vertically or horizontally, which would make building a viable large-scale weapon possible.

[Der Langrisser]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

They don't have to. If the colony was put in the shadow of the planet, that's less material you have to devote to EM shielding from the sun and any cosmic rays that might pose a danger. The sickness that the Vagan developed was because of exposure to EM in Mars' magnetic field, so obviously they weren't very shielded to begin with.

The problem with your theory is the fact that cosmic rays and solar winds literaly goes right trought a planet, and Mars' magnetic field isn't strong enough to really shield lifeforms from cosmic rays and solar winds. Even putting a colony behind its shadow won't protect it.

[mechalord]

Who's going to pilot AGE-1?

While the crew is trying to hold Flit back... who takes the Gundam? Obright or Wootbit?

[Rising Dragon]

Probably Flit anyway.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

They don't have to. If the colony was put in the shadow of the planet, that's less material you have to devote to EM shielding from the sun and any cosmic rays that might pose a danger. The sickness that the Vagan developed was because of exposure to EM in Mars' magnetic field, so obviously they weren't very shielded to begin with.

That begs the question of why going all the way there just to put the colony in orbit, instead of on the ground will all advantages that go with it. I mean, for starters, if you mine the planet for construction materials, you don't have to haul you stuff all the way back up the gravity well.

Also, they can't hide from both the Sun and Earth simultaneously all the time.

Again, it depends on how you position the colony. If it was an attempt to settle on Mars itself, then they'd settle at the areas with warmer temperatures. The areas near the equator reach temperatures of up to 86 degrees, and while not completely masking body heat signatures, they wouldn't be as glaringly obvious as if they were at the poles. The heat from the colony, again, could be easily hidden by Mars' shadow.

I'm not talking about body heat. I'm talking about the light of civilization, the fire of industry. And, yeah, the heat of life support systems.

It will, but they don't become weapons until you put them all together, and that can't be done overnight, especially if the Federation is keeping a very tight reign on the most crucial parts of the economic sectors, either vertically or horizontally, which would make building a viable large-scale weapon possible.

Who cares about that? The point is that Exa-DB should by all rights now be obsolete. What does it contain that could help them? Specific engineering details on weapons based on a basic technological base that 200 years old. Let's say we erase every blueprint for guns and rifles today, as well as the weapons themselves, and successfully forbid to pass it on to the next generations. But we keep researching explosives, metal working, mechanisms and so on, because they're all civilian uses. It won't take long for our descendants in 200 years to make some very good guns, better than what we have, because their tech will just be superior. Oh, sure, they'll have to reinvent the wheel some. Maybe they'll make some painful mistakes along the way. But that's all it'll be, and the Fed and Vagans have been at war for 60 years.

(But of course it's just a cartoon. Exa-DB will be super-useful. It's how things go.)

[Revolutionist]

Trying to make sense of things in AGE is just pointless at this point. It's just better to ignore it and enjoy the show.

According to the flashback, the staple mobile suit of the colony nations were those mono-eye designs from generation 1. But those things didn't have any superior tech, no 360degree panoramic cockpit, no electromagnetic armor, no beam weapons. They were using machine guns ffs....Perhaps those zaku-types were dumbed down after the treaty and Euba and Zalam just retained the aesthetics but none of the armor, propulsion systems, engines and beam weaponry?

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Trying to make sense of things in AGE is just pointless at this point. It's just better to ignore it and enjoy the show.

According to the flashback, the staple mobile suit of the colony nations were those mono-eye designs from generation 1. But those things didn't have any superior tech, no 360degree panoramic cockpit, no electromagnetic armor, no beam weapons. They were using machine guns ffs....Perhaps those zaku-types were dumbed down after the treaty and Euba and Zalam just retained the aesthetics but none of the armor, propulsion systems, engines and beam weaponry?

Its already established in Gen 1 that the Euba and Zalam suits were supplied to them by Yark Dole, who obviously wouldn't want to give them advanced MS technology that the Vagan had.

Besides, the suits in the flashback, though similar looking, clearly aren't the same as the Euba and Zalam suits, and the painting of a battle scene from the past shows multiple MS's flying around with beam sabers on. So the technology of the past were definitely a lot more advanced than you suggest.

So no, some things in AGE do make sense, you just need to remember things a bit better.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Who cares about that? The point is that Exa-DB should by all rights now be obsolete. What does it contain that could help them? Specific engineering details on weapons based on a basic technological base that 200 years old. Let's say we erase every blueprint for guns and rifles today, as well as the weapons themselves, and successfully forbid to pass it on to the next generations. But we keep researching explosives, metal working, mechanisms and so on, because they're all civilian uses. It won't take long for our descendants in 200 years to make some very good guns, better than what we have, because their tech will just be superior. Oh, sure, they'll have to reinvent the wheel some. Maybe they'll make some painful mistakes along the way. But that's all it'll be, and the Fed and Vagans have been at war for 60 years.

(But of course it's just a cartoon. Exa-DB will be super-useful. It's how things go.)

Except mobile suits aren't simple contraptions like guns are. These things extremely complicated technology that requires advanced knowledge of quite a few fields of science and engineering, not to mention tremendous amount of resources to develop. And some of these might just not have any civilian use, so they become forgotten. After all, they've completely lost all traces of how to make these things, and even forgot how to fight wars, so its not as easy to replicate that type of military technology as you seem to think.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Again I say the Silver Chalice Treaty enforced a Technos Taboo. Guys like Mardona skirt the law by building tech on their own. The Asuno's on the other hand has the Age device, a equivalent of RX-78-2 Gundam Learning Computer, which dates back to the era of the Colony Wars.

The Colony Wars must have been so traumatizing that Earth Sphere forsaken the advanced weapons technologies.

Ezelcant waited out Earth Sphere as it became more pacifistic and made his move when he got a portion of the EXA-DB.

A traumatic series of unending wars could also explain the colonization of Mars. The Vegan's ancestors would not only be pioneers but refugees looking for a fresh start. Being a desperate bunch they did not think Mars weak magnetic field is hazardous to health.

By the time Mars Rays were taking its toll the Federation isn't really in a position to send a rescue fleet as the Colony Wars are still raging.