[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 2 Turn of the golden witch

[Rias]

Well they havn't got to the offical count yet...it takes them about a day to sort thru to see if ther are people who voted more than once per day, that's why the offical numbers aren't out yet.

But seeing how saba was top since 2 days ago...

[Nadeor]

Saba was one of the topics which the fans like to make fun of
But still, it's hilarious

So as I pray, Unlimited Saba works XD

[orange541]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

I loved Tatarigoroshi's art so it won't be a problem for me

Klash I think you mean, Hōjō Yutori. I wouldn't mind seeing a Ep drawn by her ether.

I could never get used to Hōjō san's style...Sould it be referred as shoujo style?

Among Higurasi mangas I appreciate the style of Tatarigoroshi hen most~ with the most MOE Rika and Satoko~and there was fewer figure distortions in Tsusuki (I suppose?)san's drawing compared with others.

BUT!! Still my Miyo was not well presented...T-T

[Rias]

Recently just re-read (actually re-read a couple weeks ago but didn't have time to gather my thoughts), and definitely came out with more theories than before. These are just my theories, could've been influenced by others who have posted on this thread. Maybe it's close to the truth, or maybe just worth a laugh:

Spoiler for Meta Beatrice vs Meta Battler:

Definitely seems like it's actually Ryukishi07 vs Readers. Meta Beatrice is out there to crack down on the deuctions that players have made in Ep1, such as hiding under the bed during the closed room, dead people are actually just fake corpses, secret passages, duplicate keys and what not. Many things that Battler had came up with I was able to deduce before he mentions it, and thus could even foresee the trap that she laid for the 2nd closed room: that itself was more scary than the murders. Of course, Battler's refusal to suspect anyone in the 18 people group is his downfall; things can be explained easier if someone from the 18 is actually the culprit. In other words, I would actually be quite suprised if none of the 18 is actually crucial in the whole murder case.

Spoiler for So, what's with all those butterflies, goat people, magical blades and what nots?:

First time I was reading I was merely enjoying the story, and definitely got pull by Beatrice's pace. Although I refused to acknowledge that magic was in play, that was merely just my human ego at work, that I refused to give in but did not have a good reason to counter Beatrice's points. Thinking again, after the 2nd time reading, it became more clear to me: It's just the same as Onikakushi-hen from Higurashi. However, there doesn't need to have some disease that makes people delusional; in ep2, the perspective of the story changes from time to time. Sometimes we see it from Battler's or other people's view, sometimes it's 3rd person omnipresent. Everytime magic is in play, it's 3rd person. Thus what we see is actually "actual crime" + "Beatrice's spin on words and claiming everything is magic".
This is also aparaent when we consider that the time line jumps from time to time. Meta Beatrice vs Battler could have happened after Battler gave up, and Beatrice claiming everything was done by magic at the end. Beatrice doesn't necessary have to help the real killer, but has definitely done her share of spreading paranoia and confusion to the players.

Spoiler for What's with Beatrice walking into the house?:

This is hard to fully duduce as it could have 2 beatrice, the real witch and the one that pretends to be her. There are many candiates, but I think the most suspicous is Rosa. If the "fixing candy" event was fake, as she's the only one who saw "Beatrice" fixing the candy, then the "7 brothers and sisters acknowleding Beatrice" is also fake. That would definitely put Rosa as one of the wolves, but I cannot see why it is necessary for her to pretend to be Beatrice. Beatrice never showed up in ep1 and people were still killed off as is...

Spoiler for From the last point, does that mean XXXXXXXX is the real culprit?:

Rosa is definite suspicous, but I doubt she is the only wolf. During the 3rd closed room, there must be someone else who caused the chaoes. There could be more than 1 servants who is actually a wolf...two ways I see this could happen:
1. Kurata/Genji/Shannon are all wolves. Self explantory.
2. One of the three is a wolf. But that would actually mean that someone isn't actually dead and were one of the wolf. Somone used Kannon's dead body to gain entry to the servent's room, and after killing Kumasawa and Nanjo, and when the three runs away, one of them would leave their key behind for the culprit to clean up and move the bodies (perhaps an accompliace from the start, or perhaps was convinced by the culprit on the spot), then afterwards the "one" will get his/her keys back to show that they are innocent.

If point two is indeed the case, then Shanon and Genji is the most suspicious. Perhaps they were with Ginzo during the 1st room, but Ginzo never said how long they were there for. For all we know, they could've finished early, went to Jessica's room and does their business and go back to the dining hall just to pretend that they just got back from Ginzo's room.

Spoiler for Then what about the 4th closed room?:

Recall 34-tan's hint in the hidden tea room. Beatrice has great moves, but sometimes she makes unnessary moves just becuase she's winning or wanted to drag out the game. For the 4th room, people are so tired of these closed room that they failed to carefully check the room like they did for the 2nd and 3rd room. Thus one can argue that it's the old trick of "hiding under the bed". Beatrice only said there's no hidden passages and no hidden places to hide (red text), but recalled the definition that Beatrice had for those terms. Furthurmore, she also did not use Red text to deny the fact that there isn't other people in the room at the time, unlike how she did it for the 2nd and 3rd room.

Spoiler for So in Summary...?:

Beatrice exists but doesn't do anything that helps or hinder the wolves. Rather, she's taking credit of the wolves' work. Also, the crimes are not done by magic.

Spoiler for various unsolved mysteries and speculations:

1. What happened to the inital letter that Rosa got from Beatrice?
Perhaps she read it in the chapel. Or she just plain forgot about it. Who cares about some suspicous letter anyway?

2. In Umineko, who's Berkenstal playing as?
I am guessing Maria...or maybe Saba. Just look at all the help Saba gave, espeically them Saba jokes. Definitely makes Beatrice jealous in hidden tea party

3. What's the deal with the banquet at the end?
It's as it is, party time for everyone. Once battler gives up, there's no point staying real, is there?

4. Then what about Rosa Musou right at the end?
Probably same deal. Or perhaps someone called speical forces "Sea Cats" to retrive the lost gold that Rosa has.

5. Who's Ruon anyway?
Kanon, Shannon, Ruon are servant... maybe more "on"s will show up in Ep3, like Mion and Shion.

Later when I have more time: Deductions from comparing ep1 and ep2.

[orange541]

special forces "Sea Cats" --built up with hot girls in sailor suits~and wearing cat's ears of course~

great~ must far exceeding the YAMAINU in both MOE index and military~

[Klashikari]

Rather Leon/Reon? I'm sure he was mentioned at the start of Episode 2, when Kanon ranted how s/he was cleaning only the places where Natsuhi and Krauss would check, while Shannon was blamed by Natsuhi.
There was another servant mentioned in the start of ep1 as well, memories are a bit fuzzled.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

Recently just re-read (actually re-read a couple weeks ago but didn't have time to gather my thoughts), and definitely came out with more theories than before. These are just my theories, could've been influenced by others who have posted on this thread. Maybe it's close to the truth, or maybe just worth a laugh:

.

Man
Maybe you're 100% correct

But I didn't get the impression that the 3rd person (narrator) was trying to 'deceive' us with words, to make things favorable to Beatrice, to the supernatural side

I mean,
If we can't trust the narrator, who doesn't seem to be anyone of the story, I don't know what to think anymore
Each character has a peculiar way of speaking and those don't match with the narrator's

In higurashi, most of the time it was clear when the 'narrator' was someone of the story, like Rika or Keiichi.

Now, he is not anyone... and to think of him as an 'enemy' is kind of hard for me

[Troyd]

Rather Leon/Reon? I'm sure he was mentioned at the start of Episode 2, when Kanon ranted how s/he was cleaning only the places where Natsuhi and Krauss would check, while Shannon was blamed by Natsuhi.
There was another servant mentioned in the start of ep1 as well, memories are a bit fuzzled.

Yeah, I remember now ._.
And about the other servant in episode 1, I think that the name was Manon or something like that, but the name sounds like Mamonn, so it's strange. o_O

[Nabiki Asakura]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler:

In Umineko, who's Berkenstal playing as?
I am guessing Maria.

Spoiler:

Maybe Maria is just a fake character. In Higurashi, Keiichi and Rena are the fake ones, cause Rika is the real main char. So, did you remember Rudolf? When he said "i will die tonight", or something like that in game 1?

So, maybe, Rudolf is the main this time...

It will be fun, not a little cute girl, but an adult man running and crying

[Rias]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

But I didn't get the impression that the 3rd person (narrator) was trying to 'deceive' us with words, to make things favorable to Beatrice, to the supernatural side

I mean,
If we can't trust the narrator, who doesn't seem to be anyone of the story, I don't know what to think anymore
Each character has a peculiar way of speaking and those don't match with the narrator's

I'm not saying the the narrator is completely biased.

Spoiler:

I'm argueing that the "narrator" for the magical scenes is Beatrice herself; they are all flashbacks for the scene at the end where regular Battler watches Ginzo and Beatrice plays chess. All the scenes are meant to make Battler (and the readers) give up. Notice that first person point of view was never used for those scenes.

I think it's becuase Beatrice mixes real events with her own BS about magic makes ep2 so unrealistic and hard to duduce.

Runon/Renon - Runon was mention in beginning of ep2. Renon and Manon was mentioned in ep1. Currently plays as much of a role as Enje.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

I'm not saying the the narrator is completely biased.

Spoiler:

I'm argueing that the "narrator" for the magical scenes is Beatrice herself; they are all flashbacks for the scene at the end where regular Battler watches Ginzo and Beatrice plays chess. All the scenes are meant to make Battler (and the readers) give up. Notice that first person point of view was never used for those scenes.

I think it's becuase Beatrice mixes real events with her own BS about magic makes ep2 so unrealistic and hard to duduce.

Runon/Renon - Runon was mention in beginning of ep2. Renon and Manon was mentioned in ep1. Currently plays as much of a role as Enje.

Well,
In the endroll it says that Beatrice explained everything to Battler, everything made sense and Battler admitted her stuff; maybe you have a point there, in that messed-flashback argument

But, one side of me doesn't want to believe that
Maybe because I naively did read it all believing in each word that was being said and I'd feel like a fool

The only explanation I managed to imagine was for Shannon's first meeting with Beatrice. She had just been humiliated by Eva, it was mentioned that she was hungry, without breakfast. So I imagined she was going nuts there with hunger+heartbroken

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

Recently just re-read (actually re-read a couple weeks ago but didn't have time to gather my thoughts), and definitely came out with more theories than before. These are just my theories, could've been influenced by others who have posted on this thread. Maybe it's close to the truth, or maybe just worth a laugh:

Spoiler for various unsolved mysteries and speculations:

1. What happened to the inital letter that Rosa got from Beatrice?
Perhaps she read it in the chapel. Or she just plain forgot about it. Who cares about some suspicous letter anyway?

Later when I have more time: Deductions from comparing ep1 and ep2.

Since Beatrice ordered Rosa to read her letter during the dinner, when everyone would be present, we can assume that Rosa's letter was that one where Beatrice says she'll take everything back from Kinzo. And this letter was found sealed in the halloween party.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

But, one side of me doesn't want to believe that
Maybe because I naively did read it all believing in each word that was being said and I'd feel like a fool

Don't feel sad, Ace. I was the same way... but imagine if everything really is because of Beato's "Magic"

Also, some scenes do seem like someone is talking to Battler(you). So Rias might of found something of interest.

[Nadeor]

Hey Orange, I see you made it all the way here XD
I have finished the ep2 as well now, and able to participate in this thread~

Sterling that's just wishful thinking~

Spoiler for halloween table:

during halloween table incident, even Beatrice herself cannot use the red words
Battler did got her, she cannot prove that the key remained in Maria's bag ever since their first contact
Even showing her most ROTFLOL face to battler XD

In other words:

Spoiler:

The witch is not responsible, or directly responsible, for the first twilight
George and Shannon died because of something other than been squished in by the field
Battler is definitely becoming the next gen. of phoneix Wright...


Oh yeah, on a side note, orange I might not be able to return to Acgol for a few days
since a retarded virus got me, I can't even go into my mailbox
And after seeing EP2... oh well...
Rather than 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', ep3 should be
'Turn of the breast-addicted-retard'

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Sterling that's just wishful thinking~

I can dream...

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler for halloween table:

during halloween table incident, even Beatrice herself cannot use the red words
Battler did got her, she cannot prove that the key remained in Maria's bag ever since their first contact
Even showing her most ROTFLOL face to battler XD

Beato shows alot of "ROTFLOL" faces to Battler. I think the best one was in the 2nd Tea Party

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler:

Battler is definitely becoming the next gen. of phoneix Wright...

You can say that again

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler:

And after seeing EP2... oh well...
Rather than 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', ep3 should be
'Turn of the breast-addicted-retard'

What made Battler a retard?

[Nadeor]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

I can dream...


Beato shows alot of "ROTFLOL" faces to Battler. I think the best one was in the 2nd Tea Party



You can say that again



What made Battler a retard?

For a lack of better term I called him a retard...
Sterling what do you think?
Who's the killer in EP2?
In the chinese forum we are suspecting the Rosa&Genji/Gohda Pair
and Jessica&Gohda Pair...

[Sterling01]

I think the killer is someone we haven't met yet, but if I had to chose from the 18 people... I would say It's Battler

[Rias]

Notice how Kinzo keep proclaiming that the first six is chosen by roulette? Here's an intresting theory from 2ch that looks at it like this:

Spoiler for Devil's Roulette Theory:

Ep1's 6: Krauss, Rudolf, Rosa, Kirie, Gouda, Shannon
Ep2's 6: Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kirie

Krauss, Rudolf and Kirie has died both times, in other words, almost like Tomitake and Takano.

Now using the 3 as the core, we put the 9 people together like this, where the couples goes together:
Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Krauss, Kirie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gouda, Shannon.

The first 6 is ep2's first victims, and the end 6 is ep1's first victims.

Now we add the George with Shannon since they are a couple. So we have:

Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Krauss, Kirie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gouda, Shannon, George

Also, add in the various groups:
The last 4 survivors from ep1 group: George, Maria, Battler, Jessica
Couple no.2: Jessica, Kanon
The Boiler room combo: Kanon, Kumazawa
Ep1's servant room trio from 6/7/8 feast: Kumazawa, Nanjo, Genji
Servant and Master Duo: Genji, Kinzo

and we have this:

Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Krauss, Kirie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gouda, Shannon, George, Maria, Battler, Jessica, Kanon, Kumazawa, Nanjo, Genji, Kinzo

Kinzo will also loop back to Eva to complete the circle. The first 6 people to die is chosen from this order, in other words, devil's roulette.

As we can see, using this roulette order and moving from right to left in threes,
Ep1: Krauss, Kirie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gouda, Shannon
Ep2: Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Krauss, Kirie, Rudolf
Ep3: Nanjo, Genji, Kinzo, Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi,
Ep4: Jessica, Kanon, Kumazawa, Nanjo, Genji, Kinzo

Which means until the end of question arcs, George, Maria and Battler can survive until the end.

[Rias]

Ep3:

Spoiler for not really spoiler, just oversize pic:

New sailor uniform for Ep3. Ryukishi07 has noted that he realizes that people wore blazers at that period of time, but he just feel that sailor uniform had more of a feel to it. He also used blue, instead of red that is dominated in gal-games, since he just plain likes that color.

But wait...who has a hair style like that...? And his wallpaper! I havn't see that anywhere before...

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Rias

Ep3:

Spoiler for not really spoiler, just oversize pic:

New sailor uniform for Ep3. Ryukishi07 has noted that he realizes that people wore blazers at that period of time, but he just feel that sailor uniform had more of a feel to it. He also used blue, instead of red that is dominated in gal-games, since he just plain likes that color.

But wait...who has a hair style like that...? And his wallpaper! I havn't see that anywhere before...

Rena... drawn umineko style? or it's just Battler's sister.