um..what's Loli??

[Shii]

Originally Posted by Thany

Sounds pretty interesting
You wouldn't have the name of the author in any luck? (I like my medias with the more infos possible :P

I can't find the author, except in the context of this odd website:

http://ha6.seikyou.ne.jp/home/radida...a/rorikon.html

which I'm afraid isn't much of a hint.

[Hayami]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Bought that from a local store....

But you can find this up for sales at J-List

Search for "Akihabara" on that page.

Thank you, i just ordered it too.
$18.50 for figurine, $6.80 for shipping. I'm curious, what was the price in your local store?

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by Hayami

Thank you, i just ordered it too.
$18.50 for figurine, $6.80 for shipping. I'm curious, what was the price in your local store?

Got that for US$17.

I live in the middle of Asia, if you're wondering.

[Shadowlord]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Hmm... you mean you like loli, not lolikon or lolicon right? do you like those little girls, or do you like the ones (who are most likely adult males) who like little girls?

no, i like lolikon, lolikon is the term used to descibe loli, which are the characters in the genre. And I am not quite sure about your second point. Because to me, basically what ur asking is do I like the little girls, or the little girls who like the little girls. If I have it right, I would say both...

[Shii]

Originally Posted by Shadowlord

no, i like lolikon, lolikon is the term used to descibe loli, which are the characters in the genre.

Never heard it used that way in Japan.
Stop using Japanese words and start using English words, namely

"I have a lolikon" --> "Lolita Complex", i.e. "[anime] pedophilia"
"I am a lolikon" --> this is just plain bad grammar
"I like lolis" --> "Lolitas", i.e. "little [anime] girls" although from the creepy way people throw around "lolis" I would probably translate it as "nymphets" instead

And if you whinge about those completely correct translations giving people a bad impression of you, I would like to hit you with a hammer the way this angry smiley is hitting another smiley with a hammer because you should stop hiding yourself behind mistranslated Japanese words and other euphemisms.

[mantidor]

yeah its very funny, but the west anime culture has like a whole different vocabulary from the japanese one, I find it to be a bit lame, some people basically make up terms out of the few hiragana and katakana that they know and since we are mostly completly ignorant about japanese in general most of us end up using this terms completly believing that japanese anime fans use the same terms.

Im not an expert in "anime terminology" but so far this is what I have concluded from the time Ive been around the forums:

West..................Japan

Hentai.............. ero, maybe H (hentai is an old term, not used now)

Shounen ai........ yaoi (shounen ai was used to described prepubescent boys, but the term is old and its not used, now yaoi covers anything thats boy x boy, the games arent called yaoi games though, but bl games (boys love). Besides in the west people define shounen-ai as soft relationships and yaoi as the most hardcore stuff, afaik there is not such disctintion in Japan)

Shoujo ai......... it simply doesnt exist, I heard that recently they are starting to use the term "girls love", but this is very recently.

lolikon............ no idea, here according to this thread means "the person" while "loli" means the genre

I have no idea about "yuri" or "shota" in Japan too, in the west "yuri" and "shoujo ai" has the same relation as "yaoi" and "shounen ai" bu with women. "shota" is the equivalent for "loli" but with boys. It comes from shotaro complex.

feel free to correct me if Im wrong.

[Shii]

Originally Posted by mantidor

yeah its very funny, but the west anime culture has like a whole different vocabulary from the japanese one

To quote George Orwell:

"Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or jargon word if you can think of an everyday equivalent."

So stop using those Japanese words and instead use their English equivalents.

[Akumabito]

As for the terms Ecchi, Hentai, H.
They are all the same thing H stands for Hentai, Ecchi is the japanese pronunciation of H.

And it seems to me that while loli and pedo have the same basic motives, they are not the exact same thing. Lolicon almost seems like a fetish. The essential difference though just seems to be one is reality and one is a fantasy. And if a fantasy will stop a person from doing something in reality, I don't see it as particularly harmful.

If you are so stressed out it's either kill a bunch of people in a game or get into a fight at work, obviously the game is a better choice.

Distinguishing between fantasy and reality is the important part.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Hentai = perverted (adult material)

ero, H = erotic

Shounen ai = just what it says, young boy love

yaoi= perhaps a western equivalent would be pwp (plot what plot?) or slash fiction (e.g. Kirk X Spock fan fictions) if you know this sort of thing. My second-hand knowledge, can't vouch for accuracy


lolikon. The short hand pronunciation of "Lolita Complex", IMO a Japanese invention derived from, quite possibly, the Freudian "Oedipus Complex" and "Electra Complex", sort of like cosplay (i.e. costume play, probably a Japanese invention derived from similar structured phrases like S&M play and Roleplay, but it's just my hypothesis).

Lolita...go read Nabokov, the Russian expatriat's controversial novel. Lolikon means more or less the person with a Lolita Complex. There is obviously a western parallel, most famous one (without being quite as infamous) is Lewis Carroll and his nude photos of little girls. But since nobody (afaik) calls him a pedophile, I won't.

Why do people use language that others can't understand? Well...why does English contain the word "passé"? Maybe it just sounds cool.

kj1980 had, again posted some very helpful information some pages back, now this post feels like a hack job.

Well...so...just so that people won't call me a parrot for repeating information laid out by others, let's try to answer this question (if this is indeed a good place to ask this question):

Every time people try to connect pedophilia with lolicon in this thread, some people immidiately go on the defensive, "no, they're different." And the next sentence would almost invariably be, "pedophilia is just sick." Now, what IS wrong with pedophilia? And how does lolicon (if it does at all) contain the same criteria that make pedophilia "sick"? If possible, I would like to avoid the "eeww...lesbians are sick" type response. What is wrong with pedophilia?

There obviously has to be some serious, real, and observable harm that the pedophiliac inflicts on the children. Barring the unique situations of individual cases, what is inherently wrong with pedophiliac actions/relationships, and what other secondary damage are such actions/relationships prone to develop?

[sarcasteak]

Hypothetically in a society where pedophilia is practiced and accepted and even promoted, there probably shouldn't be anything wrong with it; the problem lies with the pedophilia occurs within the "normal" society. It is my belief that an isolated case (ie: on a deserted island) of pedophilia will cause no damage to the child, though the child's mindset, behavior, custom, and upraising will inadvertly contraste VERY strongly with that of a child raised under "normal" society. Now, if you put this child back into "normal" society, the severe damage to her psychologically occur when she has to learn to deal with the moral outrage from the "normal" society...she will simply fail to function properly in the "normal" society because it is not normal to her. The same applies even when the pedophilia is not isolated; a child raised under "normal" society will also suffer severe trauma as she has to cope with the two polar opposite system of beliefs and upbringing. And for anyone who wants to reply to this, please forget all that self-righteous moral crap; all your beliefs and upraising were what society told you, it's as simple as that. Same applies for any religious or heterosexual person (I'm using these two as example because they are unquestionably dominant beliefs in our society...and the most self-righteous and vindicative); if the person were suddenly thrown into a new society where the belief system is COMPETELY against everything he/she has learned...and to add the fact that he/she gets blamed or shunned upon for being different by the dominant believers of that society, he/she will suffer the similar trauma as a child subjected to pedophilia and fail to function properly in that society.

My 5 cents.

[Nolan Void]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Hentai = perverted (adult material)

ero, H = erotic

Shounen ai = just what it says, young boy love

yaoi= perhaps a western equivalent would be pwp (plot what plot?) or slash fiction (e.g. Kirk X Spock fan fictions) if you know this sort of thing. My second-hand knowledge, can't vouch for accuracy


lolikon. The short hand pronunciation of "Lolita Complex", IMO a Japanese invention derived from, quite possibly, the Freudian "Oedipus Complex" and "Electra Complex", sort of like cosplay (i.e. costume play, probably a Japanese invention derived from similar structured phrases like S&M play and Roleplay, but it's just my hypothesis).

Lolita...go read Nabokov, the Russian expatriat's controversial novel. Lolikon means more or less the person with a Lolita Complex. There is obviously a western parallel, most famous one (without being quite as infamous) is Lewis Carroll and his nude photos of little girls. But since nobody (afaik) calls him a pedophile, I won't.

Why do people use language that others can't understand? Well...why does English contain the word "passé"? Maybe it just sounds cool.

kj1980 had, again posted some very helpful information some pages back, now this post feels like a hack job.

Well...so...just so that people won't call me a parrot for repeating information laid out by others, let's try to answer this question (if this is indeed a good place to ask this question):

Every time people try to connect pedophilia with lolicon in this thread, some people immidiately go on the defensive, "no, they're different." And the next sentence would almost invariably be, "pedophilia is just sick." Now, what IS wrong with pedophilia? And how does lolicon (if it does at all) contain the same criteria that make pedophilia "sick"? If possible, I would like to avoid the "eeww...lesbians are sick" type response. What is wrong with pedophilia?

There obviously has to be some serious, real, and observable harm that the pedophiliac inflicts on the children. Barring the unique situations of individual cases, what is inherently wrong with pedophiliac actions/relationships, and what other secondary damage are such actions/relationships prone to develop?

He's right..

you know what they say, when in rome....

after all, it wasnt too long ago when 14 was normal marrying age...
and before that 11 (ish)

moralists be damned

your society tells you what's right and wrong, not your genes

it takes an objective mind to truly see the truth of the matter

But then I could go into a long spiel about meme culture (mind viruses)
which , being a geek, is fairly interesting to me

but probably not you.

[Wandering A.I.]

>So stop using those Japanese words and instead use their English equivalents.

I wholeheartedly support this. In fact I propose we sell the "animesuki.com" domain and move to "I-like-Japanese-animation.com". Actually we should make a "I-like-animation.com" as well since not everyone agrees that the English usage of the term anime implies the animation in question is Japanese. Next we should all learn a different language, since English will have become one step closer to being dead, static, and useless instead of the wonderful, constantly evolving, damn useful polyglot that it is currently.

[Hayami]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Never heard it used that way in Japan.
Stop using Japanese words and start using English words, namely

"I have a lolikon" --> "Lolita Complex", i.e. "[anime] pedophilia"
"I am a lolikon" --> this is just plain bad grammar
"I like lolis" --> "Lolitas", i.e. "little [anime] girls" although from the creepy way people throw around "lolis" I would probably translate it as "nymphets" instead

And if you whinge about those completely correct translations giving people a bad impression of you, I would like to hit you with a hammer the way this angry smiley is hitting another smiley with a hammer because you should stop hiding yourself behind mistranslated Japanese words and other euphemisms.

First of all, i think people are free to call themself however they want
( albeit not to call others so ),
no matter have they a reason or not
( except the name is truely insulting/offensive toward others,
like if someone would call himself "slavedriver" or worse connecting it with real slavery
existed in Amerika or other countries )
The last requirement would be that in thier society ( West in this case ) nobody else is eager carry this name,
and has a valid right to.
( i have yet to see a single Japanese lolicon who would claim this word for himself,
especially because bad western lolicons excluse the "RL lolicon" part from this term )

Now let me explain you why people who like lolita-like anime characters,
do have even a reason.
An average person in West doesn't know much about Anime,
and even less about 2d complex. *)
Thus a misinterpretation of PURE ANIME "lolita complex" is inevitable.
It's fair enough to use a word that requires a bit knowledge of anime community,
otakus, and anime in general. These who don't bother to learn about it, will not get it anyway.
( it: who are these guys(&sometimes gals too) posting on x-chan, playing Popotan etc. )
And if a word "pedophilia" will be used, they will for sure get it wrong!

I don't even care if there is a word in Japan for pure 2d lolita complex ( short term! ),
these who like this genre here in West obviously like "lolicon" word, it's cute,
so let them use it for this pure 2d lolita complex! What's your problem?
Aren't there enough engrish words in Japan?
I love it! For instance how they use these words in Magical Project S - so cute

*) guess 2d complex in general means that 2d is more important then 3d,
thus the guy would probably fail in relations with real girls etc.
What i mean is not 2d instead of 3d, but rather an addition,
something that is not abnormality but rather a hobby,
the guy would have a girlfriend ( or a girl would have a boyfiend ),
even though applying to him(her)self the cute ( from thier point of view ) word "lolicon";
He/she doesn't even have this creepy "real" 2d complex.
Anyway, an understanding of 2d complex is still essential for understanding of lolicon
(yes, lolicon, how the fans of this anime genre define it),
because of special relation to these characters in anime.

So leave lolicon fans alone (please), and stop suggesting the damn p. word,
that almost everyone look down on. OK?
( if not, you shall be punished with your own hammer )

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Shadowlord

no, i like lolikon, lolikon is the term used to descibe loli, which are the characters in the genre. And I am not quite sure about your second point. Because to me, basically what ur asking is do I like the little girls, or the little girls who like the little girls. If I have it right, I would say both...

Err... I think you get the wrong ideas... I think in Japanese ACG terms it's like this :

lolikon/lolicon (originated from the word lolita-complex) = people who like loli (most likely adult males)

loli (originated from the word lolita) = very young girl

For example, in Yumeria, Mone is a loli


Ishikari-sensei is a lolicon/lolikon


I don't know where people get the idea "lolikon/lolicon = terms used to describe loli"? loli is already a term to describe very young girl, and you need another term to describe... a term?

Remember in Yumeria, Ishikari-sensei admits himself that he is a lolicon, and in Scrapped Princess last episode Pacifica accused Shannon being a lolicon. I don't think Ishikari-sensei tried to say that he himself was a very young girl, nor was Pacifica trying to say that Shannon was a very young girl (now these words come directly from anime characters, you can clearly hear the word "lolicon" used, not some "western misinterpretation").

For shoujo-ai, in Japanese term it's yuri.

basically yaoi = gay, yuri = lesbian. although how closely the Japanese terms follow the meaning of their english counterparts, I'm not sure.

Now about loli and lolicon, I don't think they are some Japanese mistranslation, I think they should be treated more as new terms invented by the Japanese ACG community. they originate from english terms lolita and lolita-complex, that's for sure, but just as the term "pedophile" originates from the greek term "child love", so do you mean if you say someone is a pedophile, that's also grammatically incorrect? Or if you love children, you are a pedophile? I guess the meaning of the english term pedophile is already quite different from its origin. I'm not really sure about this, so just my two cents. But as far as I know, loli is just the opposite of shouta. (loli = very young girl, shouta = very young boy)

[S.A.S]

I'm not gona read the last 10 pages, but who's heard about the major crackdown on paedophiles (real life only i think, half of you are safe) in the news? I’m guessing some people on this board need to watch out or quickly escape to japan.

[Shadowlord]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Never heard it used that way in Japan.
Stop using Japanese words and start using English words, namely

"I have a lolikon" --> "Lolita Complex", i.e. "[anime] pedophilia"
"I am a lolikon" --> this is just plain bad grammar
"I like lolis" --> "Lolitas", i.e. "little [anime] girls" although from the creepy way people throw around "lolis" I would probably translate it as "nymphets" instead

And if you whinge about those completely correct translations giving people a bad impression of you, I would like to hit you with a hammer the way this angry smiley is hitting another smiley with a hammer because you should stop hiding yourself behind mistranslated Japanese words and other euphemisms.

wow, i'm sorry that my incorrect use of a word has angered you to the point of violence. but, i will whinge all I want. Since I am not hiding myself behind anything, much less japanese words, in fact, its rare I use them, accept to respond to posts. I suppose I could just some out and say, "I find animated pictures of little girls sexually arousing". Oh no, I admitted I have a thing for underage animated girls, please feel free to voice your narrow and unimportant opinion at me. I can be reached at general774@hotmail.com. Please, keep the trolling to a 500 words maximum, as I actually have a life outside animesuki and don't want to have to read 1000 messages of 100000 character length all reading "you fucking sick prick, go kill yourself!!!"

BTW, until you can show me a definition from a REAL dictionary, the words meaning is undefined and therefore, open for interpretation. If you actually think about what I said, lolikon would make much more sense as a verb as apposed to noun. Whereas loli would make more sense as a noun.

Also, if you still wish to criticize me about my incorrect use of vocabulary, punctuation and/or sentence structure, please do it privately, and not publically, as you come off as a jackass with a superiority complex.

Maybe I'll start typing in l337 to show my obviously lousy grammar skills. pl33s st0p b1e1ng a jacka55!!!11 THX!!1

[sarcasteak]

But Shadowlord...how can anyone get mad at you when he sees your absolutely adorable avy?

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by dreamless

basically yaoi = gay

People outside of Japan still use such old words?

Refreshment of what current Japanese otakus use as an American valley girl would say "you need to like, get with the times"

x bara/yaoi = "gay" (extremely old)
x yaoi = "gay" (extremely old)
o shounen-ai/boys-love = handsome boys loving each other (I refuse to use the word "gay" since it doesn't seem quite right)

As for "yuri/les/shoujo-ai," the typical distinction that is generally accepted (while not entirely always the case) are:

yuri/shoujo-ai - "non-sexual female-female bonding relationship (including love & friendship"
les - "homosexual relationship between two females."

i.e.: Trying calling "Marimite" a "lesbian anime" will definitely piss off hard core "Marimite" fans, since they consider it as "Marimite is not a Lesbian anime/manga/novel!! It is about a beautiful shoujo-ai!!!"


For bonus points:

"What do you call women who like very young boys?"

Example: Yukihiro Ayaka loves Negi Springfield in "Mahou Sensei Negima." Ayaka is a __________ .

Spoiler:

shota-con: "shota complex." A condition where a female adult has a sexual desire for underdeveloped younger boys than developed males. Strong lust for underage boys, or males whose features are of young boys. Usually abbreviated simples as "shota." Antonym is "lolicon." Originally, this was restricted only for use by women loving younger boys. But recently men who have an interest in cute young boys can also be used - recently being used more often in conjuction with shounen-ai.

Origins are believed to be taken from the main character of the second series of "Tetsujin-28go" anime (1980~1981), Kaneda Shoutaro. "Shota" came as abbreviated from "Shouta" as many fangirls who lusted for this cute young boy wearing short pants.

[Thany]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

To quote George Orwell:

"Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or jargon word if you can think of an everyday equivalent."

So stop using those Japanese words and instead use their English equivalents.

Ok let's say this, but in this case, if you or anybody underage on the forum were to be a lolicon, would it be right to call them pedophiles?
Because usually the definition of pedophiles is that they need to be an adult.
So what about underaged people? Of course, the definition might be different from country from country, but I think they usually say they have to be adult to be called such.

Sister Princess! Yes, she's a loli in age (but only in age).

Wasn't she like 17?
So I wouldn't call her a loli, let's not start to follow 5chan's stupidity in saying anything underage is loli T.T

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by kj1980

People outside of Japan still use such old words?

Refreshment of what current Japanese otakus use as an American valley girl would say "you need to like, get with the times"les - "homosexual relationship between two females."

Hahaha...I know this is sort of off-topic but I must comment on it. It is just hilarious how the two (sub) cultures are just borrowing stuff from each other, and the time lag means that what was "fashionable" in one culture, by the time it gets to another, is already jaded where it's from. To take an inappropriate example, the people living in Chinatown in the U.S. are 100 times more Chinese than the Chinese in China, they live like it's still 1925. XD

By the way, you know a term is getting old if it starts getting into critical analyses. And I am seeing more and more semi-academic papers on anime and manga in the US already.