Penguin Drum - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Penguin Drum, Episode 20.

Thread Guidelines

• Raw requests and offers are not permitted anywhere on this forum.
• Spoilers or hints about future events must not be posted in this thread.
  If you need to reference something that would spoil a future event, reply directly with a private message, or seek out a more appropriate thread.
• Discuss your expectations of the episode if it has not aired yet.
• Be polite to your fellow forum members.
• Please try to keep the discussion on-topic.
• Do not post multiple times in a row. Please edit your existing post if you wish to add additional thoughts.

Episode Thread Spoiler Policy

• Any comment that discloses events, characters, plot or other information before it is revealed in the anime is expressly forbidden whether or not it is behind spoiler tags.
  Spoiler tags should still be used where appropriate.
  Please consult the AnimeSuki Spoiler Policy for more information.
• Adding a Spoiler tag:
  

  Just highlight your spoiler and click the button found on the "Quick Reply" and "Reply to Thread" forms. Make sure that you include a useful title!

• Please use the Report button if you see any inappropriate spoilers:
  

  Click the button found to the left of the post, just under the poster's avatar. Using the Report button is anonymous and helps the Moderators locate and deal with problems quickly.

• Posting inappropriate spoilers may result in a ban.
  Note: Reporting a post does not mean the poster will be banned instantly.
  The Moderators will use bans if warnings are repeatedly ignored.

[Crontica]

I was watching Ergo Proxy episode 11 and it appeared to mirror the episode where Himari first went into the library a lot.
What the hell does a library got to do with you searching for answers and or losing your memories?
It also makes me believe that Satonashi is making sure that Himari doesn't meet a pleasant end.

[YayPepsi]

Spoiler:

My heart. D:

Looks like Kanba's going to be the bad guy after all. That end shot didn't look good for him.

[Kazu-kun]

Ok, interesting episode. This is what I gathered from it. Audio was Keyhole quality so I'm not sure about any of this .

Spoiler for ep20:

1) Kanba and Masako are siblings.

2) Shouma seems to be the only real Takakura, and it's not related neither to Kanba or Masako.

3) Himari is just the kid from a random neighbor.

4) Shouma Masako Kanba and Mario were the kids of the members of KIGA, who where planing something to "change the world" or some shit.

5) Shouma and Kanba have both KIGA apples of their own. What does this mean, I don't know.

5) Shouma meets Himari by chance on an abandoned building or something like that (maybe it's not abandoned though ). He befriends her and gives her his scarf (yep, the scarf is his!). More like the kid of neighbor she seems like an orphan and Keyhole was shit so I don't know which is it.

6) When Himari is taken to the Broiler (it's still ambiguos whether it's a real place) Shouma goes to her rescue. I can see how at the point, much like Momoka for Tabuki, Shouma became the only reason Himari had to live for.

7) Back in the present, it seems Shouma was telling all this to Ringo. Ringo is really supportive of him, but I don't know what is her role in all this now.

8) Also back in the present, Kanba meets with the Takakura again, and says he's the only one who can save Himari....

.... cue for confrontation between the brother?? I don't know. And I don't care too much about it either, to be honest.

[Nikkan]

Don't know if this is old or not, but was it true that Ikehura tweeted that

Spoiler for spoilers:

Because PoC took a part of Kanba's soul as a price for letting Himari live (first episode), she also gained some of his memories. The person in the child broiler was not Himari, it was Kanba (she replaced herself with him since it's her memories now). Sho gave the apple to Kanba.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Yumii-chan

Don't know if this is old or not, but was it true that Ikehura tweeted that

Spoiler for spoilers:

Because PoC took a part of Kanba's soul as a price for letting Himari live (first episode), she also gained some of his memories. The person in the child broiler was not Himari, it was Kanba (she replaced herself with him since it's her memories now). Sho gave the apple to Kanba.

Where did you hear this? I don't think it's true, because...

Spoiler for ep20:

Kanba had a KIGA apple of his own before Shouma gave his to Himari

[Nina.Wolken]

Why everytime this anime goes like it will present us with some answer it automatically ends up raising more question?

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Spoiler for ep20:

4) Shouma Masako Kanba and Mario were the kids of the members of KIGA, who where planing something to "change the world" or some shit.

Episode start: Pingroup, later on : Kiga
I'm really curious to know why the group changed. They seem to utter the same stuff (the world is wrong, we have to change it etc) but could it be they don't exactly seek the same goal? Or did their methods changed?
Kenzan looks like he is the leader of Pingforce, while Masako, Mario (and Kenban)'s father, the heir of Nastume corp. is a member of Kiga, possibly their leader.
I wonder why there are two distinct groups when they both seem to have the same goal. Could one of them be more extreme than the other? (That would be Kiga imo).

The Himari&Shou flashback was nicely done. Not sure what to think of the Adam&Eve analogy, though I expected it somehow. Now will try to watch the rest of the serie without focusing too much on the (very) sexual meaning of those apples .

[Kazu-kun]

EDIT: I was re-watching a better raw so wanted to update my first post

Spoiler for ep20:

When I was watching the episode on keyhole I got confused because Himari said she was waiting for her mother, yet she seemed to be living alone in that building. I thought something didn't add up, but as I was re-watching the episode I understood better:

Himari was truly waiting for her mother there, but she never came back. Basically her mother abandoned her. When Himari realized her mother wasn't going to come back at all, she's taken to the Broiler.

This is heavily symbolic I think. In the sense that the moment you realize/think you are all alone and unneeded, you're taken into the Broiler. The Broiler might be just a metaphorical representation of this lack of self-validation, and not of your physical (literal) abandonment. You feel your life it's meaningless, that nobody would ever love you (even though it's you who don't love yourself) and bam, you're in the Broiler.

There's a lot of talking about "being chosen" going on. Only the "chosen ones" are worth something and have the right to live, everyone else it's unneeded. That's why when Shouma goes into the Broiler for Himari she says "thank you for chosen me". Basically she's ascribing her worth as a person to Shouma's decision. This is all terribly misguided: your worth as a person depends entirely on you and you alone. Is Himari another Tabuki in the making?

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

EDIT:
There's a lot of talking about "being chosen" going on. Only the "chosen ones" are worth something and have the right to live, everyone else it's unneeded. That's why when Shouma goes into the Broiler for Himari she says "thank you for chosen me". Basically she's ascribing her worth as a person to Shouma's decision. This is all terribly misguided: your worth as a person depends entirely on you and you alone. Is Himari another Tabuki in the making?[/spoiler]

If you take that scene : + this one :
Add over it various talk about about being among the chosen ones or not...
Risks of Final Solution imho .

Whatever the Child Boiler really is intended to symbolize, it does serve the same function as a concentration camps (concentration hangar ?) : gather people you deem unworthy to live in your society and make them disappear.
Not saying both are the same things of course but they do have strong similarities.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

If you take that scene : + this one :
Add over it various talk about about being among the chosen ones or not...
Risks of Final Solution imho .

I think you're taking it too literal. I mean, Himari was abandoned and all alone for a few days, but it wasn't until she realized/thought that she was alone, that she was "taken" into the Broiler. I think in reality she got "there" on her own, because of her own lack of self-worth.

I think KIGA's intentions are somewhat noble but misguided, like Akio's at first. They want to create a world when everyone is equal I think, where nobody has to suffer the harshness of this world (a world where, metaphorically speaking, nobody would end up in the Broiler)....

Thing is, the world is harsh, and it's up to you to make it a better place. Trying to change the world at large, and through terrorist attacks no less... well, it's not the brightest of ideas

EDIT: It should be noted that Sanetoshi, who is the real leader behind Kensan's terrorist organization, keeps pressuring Himari to realize her feelings for Shouma. Considering this, I'm starting to believe that Himari and Shouma's "love" needs to be consummated (whatever that means) for KIGA and Sanetoshi's plan to come to fruition.

This also explains why the PotC was keeping Shouma out of the loop, since she seems to be against Sanetoshi and KIGA.

[Auria]

After two episodes or rather disappointing directions, it was great to see the show back on track again.

Spoiler:

Well yeah, the Kanba/Masako sibling theory confirmed and it seems like the child broiler is even a harder concept to grasp now BECAUSE of the (possible) ties to reality but what is reality in PenguDrum.

@Kazu-kun the Takakura father spoke about chosen and unchosen ones in his beginning speech as well. Another reason to see the child broiler connected to the organization

Oh and Momoka seems like an unchosen kid to me at the moment as it feels like we haven't heard from her for ages. I almost couldn't care less about her but I start to wonder if her plot will be resolved at least a little this season.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Auria

@Kazu-kun the Takakura father spoke about chosen and unchosen ones in his beginning speech as well. Another reason to see the child broiler connected to the organization

I think it's the other way around. He says the world it's "wrong" because (amount other things) such a thing as "chosen and unchosen" people exists. The way I see it, his organization is against that. He wants to make a world where everyone can be equally happy.

It's all metaphorical though. It's not that there's someone literally "choosing" people (probably ).

[Auria]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think it's the other way around. He says the world it's "wrong" because (amount other things) such a thing as "chosen and unchosen" people exists. The way I see it, his organization is against that. He wants to make a world where everyone can be equally happy.

It's all metaphorical though. It's not that there's someone literally "choosing" people (probably ).

I didn't want to imply a bad connection by using "connection". The connection was more meant like they could be actively working against it, so the Takakura dad has deeper knowledge about it, but in the Pengu Universum it could be that every adult gains this metaphorical knowledge somewhen, oh my. I agree that the Takakura dad seemed to be standing up against it, hence the speech at the beginning.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Auria

I didn't want to imply a bad connection by using "connection".

I see. Sorry about that then.


On another note, rewatching this episode (for the 3rd time now) suddenly makes me realize that pretty much everyone in this show, except Ringo, is delusional or at least misguided in some way. It's kind of scary actually, because you don't know who to root for (and I'm not talking about pairings).

Do I want Sanetoshi and Kensan to blow up the world to pieces in order to save it? No, absolutely not.

Do I want the brothers to use Momoka's diary to make a world/fate that would be easier on them, where Himari could be the idol she wants to be and everyone could be happy and so on? Not at all, because that would mean all the weak and misguided characters are still weak and misguided.

What I really want is what Ringo, the only sane character in the show, proposed back in episode 18. I want everyone to accept their fate, even if it's a bitch and sucks, become stronger and move on. It's time for these characters, specially the Takakuras, to grow the fuck up, I think.

Utena was such a great series because it showed that the real revolution of the world is an inner revolution. It's not about making a world that's easier on you, it's about changing yourself to become stronger and a better person.

Penguindrum isn't Utena, I know, but it's still kinda relevant since the themes are pretty much the same.

[Zaresh]

Spoiler for about initial scene in episode 20:

I... still have this feeling that there are two Kenzans... guys. It's like the composition in some scenes make me think... there're two Kenzans. It's weird.

Wainting for subs, but again, like in the flashback about the terrorist attack, the way all the image composition is made is just weird and if there're not two kenzans, it's misleading.

I wish I would be able to speak english better.

[YayPepsi]

Kanba changed his mind pretty quickly.

Spoiler:

He went from thinking "why can't it be me?" to "I'm the only one who can save Himari." I wonder what changed? Is he referring to the fact that only he can afford her medicine? It could be that he knows what the Penguindrum is.

Anyway, some speculation for future episodes: I think that Himari is going to be the one to pull Kanba into the Takakura household, not Sho or Kenzan and Chiemi. She became a Takakura before him, and Masako seems to blame Himari for taking him from the family. Maybe she "saved" him somehow, and he ended up falling in love with her. So now he feels like he has to keep saving her as repayment.

Edit: I'm surprised by how much I like Masako and Kanba as siblings. They're actually a very cute family. I wonder if Masako is actually as much of a brocon as she seems? She did give him that big kiss in episode 10 and she was painting a huge portrait of him as a prince. It seems like she does remember that he's her brother.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It should be noted that Sanetoshi, who is the real leader behind Kensan's terrorist organization, keeps pressuring Himari to realize her feelings for Shouma. Considering this, I'm starting to believe that Himari and Shouma's "love" needs to be consummated (whatever that means) for KIGA and Sanetoshi's plan to come to fruition.

This also explains why the PotC was keeping Shouma out of the loop, since she seems to be against Sanetoshi and KIGA.

I haven't watched the episode yet but this is what I guessed last week

I saw some people (or a certain person) saying Shouma being Himari's "fated one" was pulled out of nowhere but I said that the fact that the POC was dropping Shouma out of the survival strategies was the biggest clue of all.

Still need to watch the episode so I really should not be in this thread

[ars89]

The flashback was well done. Interesting that Shouma actually remembers everything. So now only Kanba doesn't remember the real past. I hope doesn't end up turning on Shouma. Wonder why the changed the name of the organization. Also wonder how Ringo will play into all of this now.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ars89

So now only Kanba doesn't remember the real past.

I think he always knew. It's heavily implied at the very least.

EDIT: Subs are available. Not GG's, but a leaked release. Don't know if the torrent is still up though.

[Narzia]

So KIGA is the new name of the Penguin Force. It should've been obvious, seeing as Aum changed their name too.
I don't think Kanba, and Kenzan for that matter, are evil. Well, uh, at least not completely. They just have - ah - questionable methods of doing things for the greater good. After all he is against the child broiler.
Sanetoshi is confusing me as always.
Himari and Shouma are olev.

What really stood out this episode, though, was the music.. that track, oh my goodness.