2004-08-05, 04:23 | Link #1 |
冤枉的小狗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
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[Anime] Let's explore the plot holes! And clarify some things.
Personal opinion of the series so far
Spoiler for Personel opinion:
Plot holes, many and some big enough to hurt when you fall inside... Plot holes A. Bradley as Pride Facts:B. Scar & dead Kimblee (Ep 42) Facts:C. Pride & Alphonse (Ep 42) Facts:D. Martel's covert ops Facts:E. Kimblee the Mad Clapper Facts:F. Hey look! It's Elephant Man Archer!!! Facts:G. Alphonse into the Philosopher's Stone Facts: Last edited by Yebyosh; 2004-08-05 at 08:49. Reason: Corrected some facts on Martel's case |
2004-08-05, 04:25 | Link #2 |
冤枉的小狗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
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Too much to write for plot holes. Now to help clarify some stuff up!
Some Clarification: 1. Juliet Douglas Facts:2. Any Homunculus saying "He" in the English fansubs Facts: Last edited by Yebyosh; 2004-08-05 at 08:51. Reason: Corrected format error 'fansubs' & Facts were joined in 2. (see Rattus's post for proof of error) |
2004-08-05, 05:49 | Link #3 | |||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Yes it annoys me too to see that they had perfect chimeras and soul affixing long before tucker's researches. so what the point of him doing this ? in the ep 24ish, it was said that someone must have transmuted tucker into a chimera, and affixed souls to the armor too. We never knew who was that person. Could it be the Master ?? Someone else ? Maybe they don't want to have to deal with his person anymore (he/she must be asking quite a high price) and they're trying to acquire the right transmutation theory by themselves. If this person is the Master, it may be Pride trying to have his own chimera/armor army to take on him/her. Quote:
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maybe his friend tucker will turn him into a vengeful chimera now I also wonder if Marco is dead ? we never saw Lust nor Gluttony killing him, and fma is no the kind of anime to hide people's deaths though. At the 5th laboratory, tucker was holding a nina chimera too, saying that he would make an homunculus out of it and then implant some memories in it's mind, does he still have this thing ??? sry for my english, it's not my main language |
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2004-08-05, 06:17 | Link #4 | ||
Not dead. Yet.
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
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However I kind of understand Bradley's actions with Martel. He has ultimate power of the Military, he's fully aware of every aspect of the system. He knows, above all else, that he has nothing to fear within the Military itself because he controls it with a iron fist. He's hardly going to bust a gut to kill a Chimera that cannot harm him in anyway. If Martel had escaped, I doubt he would have been bothered at all. Who's going to believe a Chimera? As for Al, well again Bradley probably doesn't consider Al to be a threat. In short Bradley is supremely proud and confident of his own abilities and that of his cause, he probably thinks he's untouchable. This may be a flaw of his Sin namesake, but he hasn't done too badly from it so far... Quote:
Again it seems Bradley holds power in this domain, he could easily sway any attempt to accuse Sloth of being an imposter. As with Hughes, he knew pretty much everything that was going on and acted when the threat became too real to ignore... |
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2004-08-05, 07:52 | Link #5 | |
Nibbling on the drywall
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Yeb- you think the dischord and plotholes with Bradley are the result of the anime crew starting to make something up, then getting more manga information half way through, like you suggested in another thread? |
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2004-08-05, 08:43 | Link #6 |
冤枉的小狗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
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To Sonhex and archange, re: Greed knowing Pride.
No one besides the Homunculi and 'that person' should know who Pride is. Yet Greed mentions Pride, knowing that Pride's going after the Elrics as Sonhex pointed out (episode 30). The Chimeras could already have told him "Well... King Bradley is our Fuhrer at this time." Greed might find that alias familiar (if Pride had used that name all the time) or Greed could have spotted any posters/books/brochures with Bradley's photo on it with the rank. He would then know what the heck is going on for Pride. Greed also has no compulsions to share with his subordinates what he knows. He sees no need for it. Don't forget that in Episode 31, when Envy meets Greed, they both knew they were going after Wrath, when Sloth appeared, Envy directly pointed her out as a new addition, then deliberately added that Lust is another new addition as well, and mentions that now all 7 are gathered on the world. Hence Envy has already pointed out that Greed knows the Pride that Envy knows, meaning Bradley is from 130+ years ago. If Bradley was a younger member, Greed would not have known about Pride and Envy would have pointed out a new Pride so as to mock Greed. So the conclusion from these events is that Bradley in the anime is 130++ years old and is old school Homunculus. Regarding "Al cannot possibly see the Ultimate Eye", nope he definitely saw it. Ep 40 shows he's at arm reach from Alphonse. Ep 41 shows that we are looking at the Eye from Alphonse's visor (eyes). Hence Alphonse definitely saw that Eye. The sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence. No matter how much one can take pride in one's abilities, showing off the thing that confirms your secret identity means that the other person will reveal it, unless you kill him. That whole "show the Evil Eye" scene is pointless and only serves as a big blunder on the anime crew. Regarding Martel's losing her body to a landmine.... OOOPS!!! My bad It should be they suffering critical injuries as Dorchet said in episode 33. I shall correct this. Stupid manga and anime differences.... Rattus, yep, I'm pretty much convinced that they tried to squeeze as much manga material to fill in the gaps in their ideas as possible. The effects however is that they could not mesh and smooth out the two materials that good. It is still good but not to the standards of the first half of the series. |
2004-08-05, 08:44 | Link #7 |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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well, indeed the stuff created by BONES is far more prone to plotholes than the manga... but then about the Pride Bradley part... maybe somehow he ages... I mean, the baby homunculus did age inside the door to grow up as the current Wrath... maybe if a homunculus doesn't consume enough proto-philosopher's stone it starts to age? Pride is shown a very "human" Sin so far... maybe he chose to not consuming the proto-PS and age... or maybe it's some strange alchemy cast by the Master to make him age thus to secure his position as Fuhrer... (the Master can solve everything! )
Also the anime surely sacrifice some plot integrity to get some "WOW" effects. Like in ep35, why that guy turn into stone after he died? and why that girl not turn into stone when that guy died, but turn into stone instantly when she saw him? |
2004-08-05, 08:57 | Link #8 |
冤枉的小狗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
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Well, dreamless, if Pride can age 'slowly', then Gluttony must be as wrinkled as him right now. But he's as smooth as a baby Plus according to the design of the anime, Wrath is a very 'special' Homunculus since he is made out of former human parts.
Sidenote: We know why Envy will not show aging, he just morphs and maintain that young beautiful pearly white skin . Someone can probably justify Greed's youthful looks as being the effects of being sealed away for 130/140 years (oh yes, forgot this age discrepancy plot hole....) but I prefer to think that he simply could not age at all (in consistency with Gluttony's non-aging) Good call on the Rujon petrification thing. I think I'll force ( ) myself to watch that dreary episode (to me *sigh* ) to try and figure it out. |
2004-08-05, 09:06 | Link #9 | |
Not dead. Yet.
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
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You say the sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence, well in Bradley's case that seems like definate character trait. Pride's utterly calm, collected and totally sure of himself and his abilities and his power over the Military. Knowing all he does, controlling all he does, I really can't see him worrying about Al 'knowing' about him. Who is going to question the Fuhrer or take seriously an accusation like that? Pride can and does mean an excessive belief in ones own abilities, even to the point of boasting that 'fast moves don't work on me'. |
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2004-08-05, 09:06 | Link #10 |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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well, what I meant about Pride is maybe
1. he didn't consume enough proto-PS to stop his aging or 2. the Master made him age so he can keep his position as Fuhrer, thus manipulating the army for the Master about Archer surviving the transmutation thing... I think he's not the only one survived, it's reported there are other soldiers severely injured but survived I think? |
2004-08-05, 09:25 | Link #11 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I also wonder why the homunculi's master didn't create them all at once to replace the old ones.
I mean, in ep35 Envy says that the master could do a new greed like if it was nothing for him/her (no body price to pay ??), so why this person waited to get a new sloth,lust,wrath (in the case of wrath it was wise to let him get ed's body part to êrform alchemy ) in the manga the homunculi are truely the Father's creations, he probably needs to a lot of researches to design better homunculi, but I feel that the anime's "spontaneous generation theory" added by bones just doesn't fit together with this. |
2004-08-05, 09:31 | Link #12 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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There are plot holes, but there are unfinished plots too,
1)The death of huges, didnt the two brothers noticed anything suspicious, ever since they saw armstrong with that frank archer, they didnt even ask about huges. 2) Dante's death, yeah yeah ... we'll get that covered soon i think. But do they seriously think of giving us some answers ? 3) Izumi and her son, so thats the end ? Izumi not going to do anything ? Besides she's gone right ? she wont have much chance to appear in FMA. 4)Ishbal people seemed so unimportant after scar's death , sidelined too ? |
2004-08-05, 11:07 | Link #13 |
Ichi wa zen, zen wa ichi
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Re: Juliet Douglas Theory....
I'm a little surprised that we're still discussing this. From what I gathered in regards to Martel's story, was the fact that the war in Ishbal was CAUSED by Martel's unit running in and assassinating the Ishvarites to the point where they began to resist and all hell broke loose. I thought the point of her story was to prove that what they (Ed and Al) knew about the Ishbal war, was wrong. Granted, they didn't know about Juliet Douglas, however, I thought she was explaining the cause of the war. Now in regards to Juliet Douglas, I think the fact that she died two years before the war is true. I also think her name remained on the books, that's true too. I think the name and incident was then used as a way to explain the situation - it doesn't make it true. Why else would Martel's group all be experimented on, probably assassinated? On top of that, how many Ishvarites are goin to come forth with the truth about how the war began? If they're like Scar, they're probably not that interested in talking about the war. Of course, this is just another theory. ^^ Er, episode 43 spoiler... Spoiler:
I'm willing to bet, in fact, that Pride is the oldest sin. Now that's not to say he spent 130 years in the military, because that would be suspicious. And we don't quite know all of the powers of his eye, it could have an illusionary quality to it that could have made him appear to be younger to others before, when he began. He may not actually be aging. There must be something there, because otherwise I think Alphonse would have put up a fight when Pride killed Martel. It could be that until 'that person' came along, Pride, Envy and probably Greed just had nothing to do, or maybe 'that person' made the first sin. (Actually, I like that better, LOL due to the fact they need the incomplete stone to survive, it appears.) Dante had to have been 130 years old, and if she'd done soul-transfer before, then Greed wouldn't have recognized her, so, it could be something to do with performing human transmutation, and surviving it. Which brings the question: What's the deal with Hoenheim's memories? And, did he perform the same sin? Hopefully the next 8-10 (and I say this with respect to the MANY opposing viewpoints on the number of remaining episodes) episodes will solve some of these inconsistancies. Akichan ^^ |
2004-08-05, 11:08 | Link #14 |
Master of Pimpage
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salem, OR
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I agree that the Archer thing is suspicious, but not impossible. Note that the people just vanished. Someone else said it before, it's likely that they were sent to the Gate, or otherwise had the bodyparts needed for the philosopher's stone taken (Much like the toll), and what was left was dropped behind. To some, they lost their entire body a la Al, but others were likely just severely mauled. Archer WAS at the very edge of the light, so it's possible he was taken after the toll was mostly done. And for the most part I agree with the discrepencies, although I don't like looking into them enough to soil prior experiences in the Anime.
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2004-08-05, 12:58 | Link #15 |
冤枉的小狗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
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Regarding Pride, Bradley knows that Al is trusted by Ed. He knows that the Elrics is regarded as a hero by a lot of the common folk despite being military lap dogs. He also knows that Ed is respected in the army despite being a young brat, due to his exploits, force of arms show with Mustang, etc. All these point to the fact that if Ed got a whiff of information regarding Bradley as a Homunculus, it is possible that discord and distrust will arise, disrupting his scheme in the army. All it takes is always a little crack to destroy the dam that stands forever.
And like I said, pride is not overconfidence. Too many people keep mistaking that. A haughty person need not be so proud of his skills. A proud person can be dumbest idiot on the Earth and yet look down on every one in his path just because they are 'inferior'. Hence confidence in one's plans not the position of one's rank indicates pride in any way. Even beggers can have pride, so why is the rank of Bradley's ascendency be placed as pride? You can try taking the anime crew's flaw in determining the adequacy of Bradley's actions as overconfidence. But I say it is flawed. If I want to keep something quiet, no one is allowed to leave to voice it out. Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi. To dreamless, fact is from the information gathered from the anime, the initial Homunculi as Sins were accidents. No one specifically designed one to occur (unlike manga). Like archange said, if they can be designed, why can't 'that person' create them all as he/she wanted to? In fact Envy pointed out that 'that person' can create another Greed. But would it be the same Greed with the same powers? Can 'that person' create a Sin as intended, current evidence (different Sins from different folks) seems to point towards no. Even if Bradley ages slowly, assuming he ages twice as slow as a normal person, no army is going to freakin believe a private at the age of 55 (est 110 years old) is going to perform so well and going through 20 years to become the Fuhrer without looking like 65 (est 130 years old). Heck which army is going to allow a 55 year old to enlist as a private unless they were reaching really badly for manpower? So the Pride = Fuhrer is really working out badly now... Regarding Frankenstein Archer, look at 18:53 of episode 42. The light surrounds all the buildings and beyond. Looking at 18:21 will give you an idea of how the city looks like. Look at 18:44-18:45 and you will notice that Archer is amongst the buildings, meaning he is deep inside the transmutation already. He was not at the edge, he was inside. Frankly like I stated, I find it hard to believe that a true Philosopher's Stone would take only 1000 lives. It is too cheap. Scar planned for the whole army which implies 7000. Here's another minor plothole, courtesy of dreamless H. Love shall conquer all!!! (Episode 35) Facts:The following are from me I. The Running Man (Episode 42) Facts:Some more clarifications 3. Lust's Ultimate Halberd Facts:4. Episode 44 - 光のホーエンハイム Facts: |
2004-08-05, 13:27 | Link #16 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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come to think about it, it seems the homunculi automatically have the mark of Ouroboros on a random location on their body? since Wrath had that mark before enlisted as a Sin... |
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2004-08-05, 13:52 | Link #17 | |
Not dead. Yet.
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
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I agree that being proud does not necessarily mean overconfidence, especially as a character trait, you can be proud and stupid. But Bradley does not fit this description. Pride is also defined as 'excessive self esteem or confidence' in my dictionary, and this fits aspects of his personality and demeanour perfectly. Watch his scenes (especially the one with Martel) and tell me he doesn't have extreme confidence in his abilities. I think we can agree to disagree as I find Bradley's actions and manner entirely acceptable (if not logical, granted) considering the power and influence he possesses within the Military and his Sin namesake. In a way he's like a aged military tactician, who knows the army inside out and wouldn't consider a lowly subordiate to be a threat to him in anyway. Think Jack Nicholson's character in 'A Few Good Men'... |
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2004-08-05, 15:46 | Link #18 |
JONLIの憂'
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I read through most of what you guys said....but too many words....especially your dam long posts, Yebyosh .
And i was a bit surprised that no one mentioned about Sloth's ability (well from what i read i didnt see anyone mention it...unless i missed it...it's a sea of words you know...). Since homunculus are made from the same material as human beings there transformations should be based on what materials our body is made of. Greed: Ultimate Shield, carbon, changing it's molecular lining/structure it'll change it's malleability and it's hardness. Lust: Same as Greed i assume but on her fingers. Envy: Changing forms from one human to another, we are all made of same components. Gluttony: Acid....I assume he somehow brings his stomach acid to his mouth....and changes it's concentration. And for Sloth, her WHOLE body becomes water (damit even her homunculus costume). What the hell? Our whole body is not made of water, although most parts of it, she can't possibly morph into a pile of water. It goes against the laws of alchemy (in this anime). Same as Yebyosh i think the series went down hill after episode 25 (best episode in this series imo). |
2004-08-05, 16:10 | Link #19 |
kid(%)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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I have something to say, I thought Pride said to kill everyone who knows about the secret of Ishbal war, then shouldn't Ed, Lyla, Roze be killed?
And I'm not sure if Al saw Pride's Homunculus eye, because he does have the 'line' eye when he approach Al. About Archer, I have a feeling that he won't live long or he will seek for revenge or he will join the Sins (as a traitor) Hohemheim (according to my brother): my brother said that Hohemheim was already much older than Sara when he met Sara because he said 'you've grown up' means that he knows what Sara looks like when he was small, of course you won't say 'you've grown up' to a person who's the same of your age.. I have a hunch, if Hohemheim is the master, no wonder Winry's parents were to be asked to be killed in the war... After all it was an order from the Fuhrer right? so it might be like: - Hohemheim is the master - If Sara didn't die, she knows that Hohemheim didn't age (might) - To keep his secret, Hohemheim ordered Pride to kill the Rockebell doctors - His secret is kept now. Note: if Hohemheim is more than a 100 years old, that means Trisha married an ojii-san! I think the Fuhrer might have aged really, really, really slow. By the time he looks 40's or something, he joined the Sin and serve the military until he becomes the Fuhrer now, so no one might knew what the Fuhrer looks when he was young.. correct me if I'm somewhat wrong in the timeline. |
2004-08-05, 16:34 | Link #20 |
z0mg
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Scottieland
Age: 41
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Unfortunatly, I think Yebosh's judgement is clouded by his FMA Manga > Anime Bias:
1: On the subject of Bradley, I'm afraid the anime has revealled too little about him to making these kind of assumptions. As of Ep40, it appears that someone DOES design the homonoculus. As Ed says "They wouldn't survive for long in that form". It is then highly likely that their master rescues them, then gives them their abilities. Greed may not know Bradley. He knew of a Pride before he was sealed, but as has been seen before, "Sins" can be replaced. He may not be the same Pride Greed knew. Finally, it looks to me like the anime will take the same approach to Bradley as the Manga does (ie, a homonuculus designed not too age). It's already been shown in the anime that he has a wife, so his family unit is probably the same as it is in the Manga. 2: The Kimbley point is fair enough. 3: It seemed quite obvious to me that Bradley dispatched Martyl incredibly quickly. In ep40, it was portrayed slowly for drama, but from Al's point of view, he'd have just seen a short flash of Bradley and his eye, then him seathing his sword. It could be considered more bad direction than a plot hole, but I thought it was handled pretty well. 4: Archer. As I said in another topic, it's possible that the activation of the array took everyone beyond the gate, the philiosopher's stone was created, and the excess "parts" were then discarded. Going by past events, this seems highly likely. 5: Alphonse as the stone. As you said, it's probably still incomplete. Ed also warns Al from causing alchemic reactions, as he doesn't want him to dissapear. This implies that Ed believes the philospher's stone to be an expendable object instead of a permanent one. 6: On the subject of the Chimeras, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that they didn't resemble humans at all until Tucker had fixed them up himself. Some good points are raised, but I think you're being a tad picky. Looking for plotholes where there may be none. Half the time, your plot holes require as much imagination to define as they do to fill. |
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