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Yebyosh · 2004-08-05, 04:23

Personal opinion of the series so far

Spoiler for Personel opinion:

Plot holes, many and some big enough to hurt when you fall inside...

Plot holes

A. Bradley as Pride

Facts:
- Bradley is Pride
- Greed knows Pride
- None of Greed's contacts know who is Pride
- Greed therefore knows Bradley
- Bradley is therefore 130++ years old

Consider:
- Bradley is Fuhrer/President
- He must have served in military rising through the ranks
- That takes many years (at least 20 years to account for pre-Ishuvaru and Ishuvaru conflicts)
- No one noticed he never ages?!
- No one designs the Homunculi
- Bradley cannot age or ages slowly
- Since Gluttony doesn't age, Pride likely cannot age as well.

Possible Explanation:
- Amestris citizens and soldiers are idiots
- Anime crew's bumbling effort to interject mystery without checking events proper

Plot hole severity: Severe, horrible

Note: Manga's Bradley's background should not be used to try to explain any of anime Bradley's failings since they are now considered to be two different kinds.

B. Scar & dead Kimblee (Ep 42)

Facts:
- Scar kicks the corpse of Kimblee off the walls of the ruins in front of Archer
- Scar has no arms at all

Consider:
- Scar lost quite a lot of blood
- That wall is one storey above street level
- Scar & Kimblee had their battle in the center of the ruins. The wall is at the edge of the ruins. That's a far distance...
- How the heck did Scar get Kimblee's body up to that wall to kick it down?

Possible Explanation:
- Scar kicks the corpse all the way from the center to the edge of the ruins, up the steps and down the wall. He will die from the exertion and blood loss from this, so no...
- Lust carries the corpse for him... Yeah... right... whoever believes Lust would willingly do that for him and that he(Scar) accepts that favour must be a Rujon (ep 36).

Plot hole severity: Bad

C. Pride & Alphonse (Ep 42)

Facts:
- Pride fights Martel and the super Homunculus actually fails to kill her right there in an advantageous situation
- Martel slinks inside Alphonse and tells him Bradley is a Homunculus

Consider:
- Bradley, a Homunculus, slowly moves step by step towards his prey which will reveal important information to Alphonse
- Bradley shows his evil eye to Alphonse and let him lives?!
- Bradley is aware of Alphonse's knowledge of what an Uroborus tattoo mean.
- Bradley then lies to Alphonse, does he expect Alphonse to believe that and forget he is a Homunculus?
- Bradley then lets Alphonse go off with the knowledge that he is a Homunculus to spread around

Possible explanation:
- Anime crew's "make the plot exciting" device
- The Homunculi decide to let Edward & Alphonse know who Bradley really is. Their current actions doesn't make sense in this detail. Why should they alert them? It is much better to keep them in the dark, then kill those Elric brats off.

Plot hole severity: Severe

D. Martel's covert ops

Facts:
- Dorchet said they became Chimeras after suffering heavy injuries in the Eastern Wars. This was at the Devil's Nest (episode 33).
- Martel said they became Chimeras after a covert ops. This was when she was traveling with Ed & Al (epsidode 39)

Consider:
- Martel did not dispute Dorchet's statements.
- Fourteen years ago, there were already souls grafted to armors and people don't suspect Al for anything else?
- Why should Tucker's research be so intensely followed by General Basque Grand if they have the perfect Human Chimeras? His types of Chimeras are inferior in terms of sophistication to what Roah, Dorchet and Martel are.

Possible explanation:
- Dorchet lied. However his lies would be pointless. To scare Al? That story was not scary. As a joke? Uh... right...
- Anime crew tried to make a grand plot but forgot all the details.

Plot hole severity: Minor

Note: the covert ops story can co-exist with the "Juliet Douglas shooting a kid, starting the war" story. The ops happened first and the Douglas incident happened afterwards, sparking off the whole war. In fact, they are likely to be both true. The plothole above is concerned with the creation of the military Chimeras.

E. Kimblee the Mad Clapper

Facts:
- Kimblee is notorious in the Amestris Military
- Kimblee has two different alchemical sigils inscribed on one each on his palms
- Kimblee performs his Bomb Alchemy by clapping his palms together

Consider:
- No one among the military judges ever considered Edward might be doing the same in his Certification? They just simply accepted his "no sigil Alchemy" as is?

Possible explanations:
- The military panel do not know of Kimblee. Not possible since Kimblee is a very infamous figure (he killed his own men! A heinous crime to military personel)
- The military panel can see Ed's palms. Not likely, they are not there to scrutinise the applicant's appearance. Furthermore at no time was Ed's palms shown clearly to them (he wore gloves)

Plot hole severity: Minor but irksome

Note: Manga's Kimblee was never shown how he uses Alchemy. So if he does do a 'clap' Alchemy, this flaw can be extended to Arakawa-sensei as well. But until it is shown to be so, this is an anime flaw.

F. Hey look! It's Elephant Man Archer!!!

Facts:
- Brevet Colonel Frank Archer went into the ruins of Lioru
- At the end of the ep43, Frank Archer was shown on the stretcher with half (ok 3 quarters) of his face, alive. Horribly disfigured but alive.

Consider:
- Frank Archer was totally enveloped by the growing sphere of purple/indigo/violet light
- Everything swallowed by that light is gone/vanished/vamooshed! (except Alphonse & the sand...)
- Yet he survives to lose only half(ok 1/4) a face while 1000 soldiers are wiped out of this world?

Possible explanation:
- Anime crew's plot device to keep one angry vengeful villian, as stupid as it is
- Frank Archer's AT Field could only protect half his face yes, a sarcastic joke

Plot hole severity: Terrible, awful

G. Alphonse into the Philosopher's Stone

Facts:
- According to the characters, Alphonse is the Philosopher's Stone
- Supposedly it took the lives of all the 1000 soldiers (except miraculous Frank Archer who escaped by using his l33t ummm what?)

Consider:
- They were in the ruins of Lioru with lots of ruins/buildings/junk
- Everything is gone after the light
- The conclusion is the transmutation even took those buildings (inorganics) to make the Philosopher's Stone
- Then why not the sand? Why not a big empty bowl in the ground with Alphonse either lying at the bottom or mysteriously floating in mid-air (ground level actually) with mysterious energy shining or crackling around him.
- The Stone only needed 1000 lives? That's cheap. In fact, it was likely that the 5th Laboratory already had used up hundreds to thousands of lives to play with.

Possible explanations:
- The transmutation 'absorbs' organics and converts inorganics into sand. Not likely, since it should have converted inorganics into just their basic elemental compositions, thus you should find metals, silica, sulphur, gases, etc.
- Regarding the Stone, someone suggested it was still incomplete, that it required all the lives of the world to make a true stone. This seems in line with the overall philosophy of the series. But then, Alphonse said they obtained it...

Plot hole severity: Average

Yebyosh · 2004-08-05, 04:25

Too much to write for plot holes. Now to help clarify some stuff up!

Some Clarification:

1. Juliet Douglas

Facts:
- She died 2 years before the whole Ishuvaru mess started
- Proof: Hughes' statement "Sono Mae wa Ishuvaru Nairan no Ninen Mae ni Shibotteiru hatsuan desu yo." or "It has been suggested that that person died 2 years before the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict." This statement was made 4 years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation (which the war had already ended long ago by then).
- Juliet Douglas supposedly sparked off the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict by shooting one Ishuvaru kid
- Juliet Douglas was never stricken off the military rosters
- Juliet Douglas suddenly 'reappeared' two years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation
- In the following two years, Juliet Douglas rose through the ranks to become the President's Secretary/Fuhrer's Adjutant

Any possible flaws:
- Surely someone serving long in the military, e.g. General Hakuro, the Eastern Sector's General, might have known of Juliet Douglas's military history and point out who Juliet Douglas is (and it is not likely she will look like Trisha Elric)

Possible explanation:
- Envy disguised himself as Juliet Douglas and sparked off the war.
- The current Juliet Douglas is the Homunculus Sloth who assumed the role 2 years ago
- Everyone who knows the real Juliet Douglas has to be dead (this is extreme but well within the Homunculi's methods)

Note: Actually it is a lesser version of the "Fuhrer = Pride" flaw but has a concrete possible solution. However the handling of it still feels rather raw with loose edges.

2. Any Homunculus saying "He" in the English fansubs

Facts:
- In the original Japanese dialogue, it was always "Ano Hito" or literally "that person", or "Sono Mae" or literally "This person(cruder term)" on every occassion
- The mysterious person the Homunculi refer to was never referred to with a gender
- As such, the person can be a male or female

archange · 2004-08-05, 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Personal opinion of the series so far

Spoiler for Personel opinion:

Plot holes, many and some big enough to hurt when you fall inside...

Plot holes

A. Bradley as Pride[indent]Facts:
- Bradley is Pride
- Greed knows Pride
- None of Greed's contacts know who is Pride
- Greed therefore knows Bradley
- Bradley is therefore 130++ years old

Greed knows pride ? must have missed something

. I don't recall hearing about Pride before ep40 (still his existence was predictable). So we d'ont really know about Bradley's true age. Also, I don't think that Greed was that much talkative about his homunculus life lol, none of his men should have knows who exactely were envy, gluttony etc. (by hanging around with Greed they knew what was an homunculus, the Uruboros tattoo and some of his abilities though)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Consider:
- Bradley is Fuhrer/President
- He must have served in military rising through the ranks
- That takes many years (at least 20 years to account for pre-Ishuvaru and Ishuvaru conflicts)
- No one noticed he never ages?!
- No one designs the Homunculi
- Bradley cannot age or ages slowly
- Since Gluttony doesn't age, Pride likely cannot age as well.

Possible Explanation:
- Amestris citizens and soldiers are idiots
- Anime crew's bumbling effort to interject mystery without checking events proper

Plot hole severity: Severe, horrible

Note: Manga's Bradley's background should not be used to try to explain any of anime Bradley's failings since they are now considered to be two different kinds.

it's true that the manga doesn't have to explain the anime, but there is still 8 eps to go

. I think that like in the manga, he ages slowly (I don't see why Bradley shouldn't age just because gluttony doesn't ^^ , after all in the manga it's one of wrath's/pride's unique trait)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

B. Scar & dead Kimblee (Ep 42)[/b]

Facts:
- Scar kicks the corpse of Kimblee off the walls of the ruins in front of Archer
- Scar has no arms at all

Consider:
- Scar lost quite a lot of blood
- That wall is one storey above street level
- Scar & Kimblee had their battle in the center of the ruins. The wall is at the edge of the ruins. That's a far distance...
- How the heck did Scar get Kimblee's body up to that wall to kick it down?

Possible Explanation:
- Scar kicks the corpse all the way from the center to the edge of the ruins, up the steps and down the wall. He will die from the exertion and blood loss from this, so no...
- Lust carries the corpse for him... Yeah... right... whoever believes Lust would willingly do that for him and that he accepts that favour must be a Rujon (ep 36).

Plot hole severity: Bad

yes it was very strange, kicking the body would have taken a loooot of time, and i don't even see how he could have lift it upstairs

. the only explanation is that Lust helped scar since they had the same goal at the moment but it doesn't fit scar's behavior. and we saw scar and lust running in the city alone, would have they turned back to take kimblee's body ??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

C. Pride & Alphonse (Ep 42)

Facts:
- Pride fights Martel and the super Homunculus actually fails to kill her right there in an advantageous situation
- Martel slinks inside Alphonse and tells him Bradley is a Homunculus

Consider:
- Bradley, a Homunculus, slowly moves step by step towards his prey which will reveal important information to Alphonse
- Bradley shows his evil eye to Alphonse and let him lives?!
- Bradley is aware of Alphonse's knowledge of what an Uroborus tattoo mean.
- Bradley then lies to Alphonse, does he expect Alphonse to believe that and forget he is a Homunculus?
- Bradley then lets Alphonse go off with the knowledge that he is a Homunculus to spread around

Possible explanation:
- Anime crew's "make the plot exciting" device
- The Homunculi decide to let Edward & Alphonse know who Bradley really is. Their current actions doesn't make sense in this detail. Why should they alert them? It is much better to keep them in the dark, then kill those Elric brats off.

Plot hole severity: Severe

it must be because of the incarnation of Pride. bradley must have been underestimating al and martel (imo, Pride fits him more than Wrath in the manga), that's why he take his time. seeing him moving slowly shocked me though, he his supposed to be ultra fast

. maybe it's because Al would have been surprised if he saw the fuhrer moving at ultra speed. Bradley must have thought that martel didn't have the time to tell anything to al, or he underestimates al as well. I don't think that al actually saw his uroboros eye. Pride opened it when he was very close to al. If you consider Al's body structure there's no way he could have seen anything else than pride's hair at that moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

D. Martel's covert ops

Facts:
- Martel said she became a Chimera after losing half her body to a landmine. This was at the Devil's Nest.
- Martel said they became Chimeras after a covert ops. This was when she was traveling with Ed & Al.

Consider:
- Dorchet backs Martel's first story up without calling it a lie.
- Fifteen years ago, there were already souls grafted to armors and people don't suspect Al for anything?
- Why should Tucker's research be so intensely followed by General Basque Grand if they have the perfect Human Chimeras? His types of Chimeras are inferior in terms of sophistication to what Roah, Dorchet and Martel are.

Possible explanation:
- Martel lied to Alphonse at the first time. But for what? It was not for jest since it was not funny. Neither can it be to scare him since it is not a scary story and one can certainly make a scarier story than that.
- Anime crew tried to make a grand plot but forgot all the details.

Plot hole severity: Minor

Note: the covert ops story can co-exist with the "Juliet Douglas shooting a kid, starting the war" story. The ops happened first and the Douglas incident happened afterwards, sparking off the whole war. In fact, they are likely to be both true. The plothole above is concerned with the creation of the military Chimeras.

i don't remember about martel saying that she lost her body to a land mine, so i won't comment on this, you must be right, I didn't really cared about Greed's men at that moment

Yes it annoys me too to see that they had perfect chimeras and soul affixing long before tucker's researches. so what the point of him doing this ? in the ep 24ish, it was said that someone must have transmuted tucker into a chimera, and affixed souls to the armor too.

We never knew who was that person. Could it be the Master ?? Someone else ? Maybe they don't want to have to deal with his person anymore (he/she must be asking quite a high price) and they're trying to acquire the right transmutation theory by themselves.

If this person is the Master, it may be Pride trying to have his own chimera/armor army to take on him/her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

E. Kimblee the Mad Clapper

...

nothing to comment here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

F. Hey look! It's Elephant Man Archer!!!

Facts:
- Brevet Colonel Frank Archer went into the ruins of Lioru
- At the end of the ep43, Frank Archer was shown on the stretcher with half (ok 3 quarters) of his face, alive. Horribly disfigured but alive.

Consider:
- Frank Archer was totally enveloped by the growing sphere of purple/indigo/violet light
- Everything swallowed by that light is gone/vanished/vamooshed! (except Alphonse & the sand...)
- Yet he survives to lose only half(ok 1/4) a face while 1000 soldiers are wiped out of this world?

Possible explanation:
- Anime crew's plot device to keep one angry vengeful villian, as stupid as it is
- Frank Archer's AT Field could only protect half his face yes, a sarcastic joke

Plot hole severity: Terrible, awful

yes he should be dead

, could he be The Great Mole Chimera and have digged a gallery to escape some of the transmutation reaction ? did he runned like mad ?
maybe his friend tucker will turn him into a vengeful chimera now

I also wonder if Marco is dead ? we never saw Lust nor Gluttony killing him, and fma is no the kind of anime to hide people's deaths though. At the 5th laboratory, tucker was holding a nina chimera too, saying that he would make an homunculus out of it and then implant some memories in it's mind, does he still have this thing ???

sry for my english, it's not my main language

Sonhex · 2004-08-05, 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

...

Plot holes

A. Bradley as Pride

Facts:
- Bradley is Pride
- Greed knows Pride
- None of Greed's contacts know who is Pride
- Greed therefore knows Bradley
- Bradley is therefore 130++ years old

Consider:
- Bradley is Fuhrer/President
- He must have served in military rising through the ranks
- That takes many years (at least 20 years to account for pre-Ishuvaru and Ishuvaru conflicts)
- No one noticed he never ages?!
- No one designs the Homunculi
- Bradley cannot age or ages slowly
- Since Gluttony doesn't age, Pride likely cannot age as well.

Possible Explanation:
- Amestris citizens and soldiers are idiots
- Anime crew's bumbling effort to interject mystery without checking events proper

Plot hole severity: Severe, horrible

Note: Manga's Bradley's background should not be used to try to explain any of anime Bradley's failings since they are now considered to be two different kinds.

Yeah, the fact Greed was the first the mention Pride was a bit odd considering the fact he has no contact with his kin and has been imprisoned all that time. But wasn't he told by someone about Pride?

However I kind of understand Bradley's actions with Martel. He has ultimate power of the Military, he's fully aware of every aspect of the system. He knows, above all else, that he has nothing to fear within the Military itself because he controls it with a iron fist. He's hardly going to bust a gut to kill a Chimera that cannot harm him in anyway.

If Martel had escaped, I doubt he would have been bothered at all. Who's going to believe a Chimera? As for Al, well again Bradley probably doesn't consider Al to be a threat.

In short Bradley is supremely proud and confident of his own abilities and that of his cause, he probably thinks he's untouchable. This may be a flaw of his Sin namesake, but he hasn't done too badly from it so far...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

...
1. Juliet Douglas

Facts:
- She died 2 years before the whole Ishuvaru mess started
- Proof: Hughes' statement "Sono Mae wa Ishuvaru Nairan no Ninen Mae ni Shibotteiru hatsuan desu yo." or "It has been suggested that that person died 2 years before the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict." This statement was made 4 years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation (which the war had already ended long ago by then).
- Juliet Douglas supposedly sparked off the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict by shooting one Ishuvaru kid
- Juliet Douglas was never stricken off the military rosters
- Juliet Douglas suddenly 'reappeared' two years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation
- In the following two years, Juliet Douglas rose through the ranks to become the President's Secretary/Fuhrer's Adjutant

Any possible flaws:
- Surely someone serving long in the military, e.g. General Hakuro, the Eastern Sector's General, might have known of Juliet Douglas's military history and point out who Juliet Douglas is (and it is not likely she will look like Trisha Elric)

Possible explanation:
- Envy disguised himself as Juliet Douglas and sparked off the war.
- The current Juliet Douglas is the Homunculus Sloth who assumed the role 2 years ago
- Everyone who knows the real Juliet Douglas has to be dead (this is extreme but well within the Homunculi's methods)

Note: Actually it is a lesser version of the "Fuhrer = Pride" flaw but has a concrete possible solution. However the handling of it still feels rather raw with loose edges.

Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread. The fact JD died 2 years before she apparently kickstarted the Ishbal War, which was years before Sloth assumed her identitiy is confusing. Envy is the likely culprit here but it all seems quite messy.

Again it seems Bradley holds power in this domain, he could easily sway any attempt to accuse Sloth of being an imposter. As with Hughes, he knew pretty much everything that was going on and acted when the threat became too real to ignore...

Rattus · 2004-08-05, 07:52

Quote:

Any Homunculus saying "He" in the English fansubsFacts

People, can we now please bury all the "Pride can't be the fuhrer, Lust said 'she'! " theories that are STILL cropping about?

Yeb- you think the dischord and plotholes with Bradley are the result of the anime crew starting to make something up, then getting more manga information half way through, like you suggested in another thread?

Yebyosh · 2004-08-05, 08:43

To Sonhex and archange, re: Greed knowing Pride.

No one besides the Homunculi and 'that person' should know who Pride is. Yet Greed mentions Pride, knowing that Pride's going after the Elrics as Sonhex pointed out (episode 30). The Chimeras could already have told him "Well... King Bradley is our Fuhrer at this time." Greed might find that alias familiar (if Pride had used that name all the time) or Greed could have spotted any posters/books/brochures with Bradley's photo on it with the rank. He would then know what the heck is going on for Pride. Greed also has no compulsions to share with his subordinates what he knows. He sees no need for it.

Don't forget that in Episode 31, when Envy meets Greed, they both knew they were going after Wrath, when Sloth appeared, Envy directly pointed her out as a new addition, then deliberately added that Lust is another new addition as well, and mentions that now all 7 are gathered on the world. Hence Envy has already pointed out that Greed knows the Pride that Envy knows, meaning Bradley is from 130+ years ago.

If Bradley was a younger member, Greed would not have known about Pride and Envy would have pointed out a new Pride so as to mock Greed.

So the conclusion from these events is that Bradley in the anime is 130++ years old and is old school Homunculus.

Regarding "Al cannot possibly see the Ultimate Eye", nope he definitely saw it. Ep 40 shows he's at arm reach from Alphonse. Ep 41 shows that we are looking at the Eye from Alphonse's visor (eyes). Hence Alphonse definitely saw that Eye. The sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence. No matter how much one can take pride in one's abilities, showing off the thing that confirms your secret identity means that the other person will reveal it, unless you kill him. That whole "show the Evil Eye" scene is pointless and only serves as a big blunder on the anime crew.

Regarding Martel's losing her body to a landmine.... OOOPS!!! My bad

It should be they suffering critical injuries as Dorchet said in episode 33. I shall correct this. Stupid manga and anime differences....

Rattus, yep, I'm pretty much convinced that they tried to squeeze as much manga material to fill in the gaps in their ideas as possible. The effects however is that they could not mesh and smooth out the two materials that good. It is still good but not to the standards of the first half of the series.

dreamless · 2004-08-05, 08:44

well, indeed the stuff created by BONES is far more prone to plotholes than the manga... but then about the Pride Bradley part... maybe somehow he ages... I mean, the baby homunculus did age inside the door to grow up as the current Wrath... maybe if a homunculus doesn't consume enough proto-philosopher's stone it starts to age? Pride is shown a very "human" Sin so far... maybe he chose to not consuming the proto-PS and age... or maybe it's some strange alchemy cast by the Master to make him age thus to secure his position as Fuhrer... (the Master can solve everything!

)

Also the anime surely sacrifice some plot integrity to get some "WOW" effects. Like in ep35, why that guy turn into stone after he died? and why that girl not turn into stone when that guy died, but turn into stone instantly when she saw him?

Yebyosh · 2004-08-05, 08:57

Well, dreamless, if Pride can age 'slowly', then Gluttony must be as wrinkled as him right now. But he's as smooth as a baby

Plus according to the design of the anime, Wrath is a very 'special' Homunculus since he is made out of former human parts.

Sidenote: We know why Envy will not show aging, he just morphs and maintain that young beautiful pearly white skin

.

Someone can probably justify Greed's youthful looks as being the effects of being sealed away for 130/140 years (oh yes, forgot this age discrepancy plot hole....) but I prefer to think that he simply could not age at all (in consistency with Gluttony's non-aging)

Good call on the Rujon petrification thing. I think I'll force (

) myself to watch that dreary episode (to me *sigh* ) to try and figure it out.

Sonhex · 2004-08-05, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Regarding "Al cannot possibly see the Ultimate Eye", nope he definitely saw it. Ep 40 shows he's at arm reach from Alphonse. Ep 41 shows that we are looking at the Eye from Alphonse's visor (eyes). Hence Alphonse definitely saw that Eye. The sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence. No matter how much one can take pride in one's abilities, showing off the thing that confirms your secret identity means that the other person will reveal it, unless you kill him. That whole "show the Evil Eye" scene is pointless and only serves as a big blunder on the anime crew.

I'd add that even if Al didn't see the 'Ultimate Eye', Martel told him (in flashback) that the Fuhrer was a Humonculus.

You say the sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence, well in Bradley's case that seems like definate character trait. Pride's utterly calm, collected and totally sure of himself and his abilities and his power over the Military. Knowing all he does, controlling all he does, I really can't see him worrying about Al 'knowing' about him. Who is going to question the Fuhrer or take seriously an accusation like that?

Pride can and does mean an excessive belief in ones own abilities, even to the point of boasting that 'fast moves don't work on me'.

dreamless · 2004-08-05, 09:06

well, what I meant about Pride is maybe

1. he didn't consume enough proto-PS to stop his aging

or

2. the Master made him age so he can keep his position as Fuhrer, thus manipulating the army for the Master

about Archer surviving the transmutation thing... I think he's not the only one survived, it's reported there are other soldiers severely injured but survived I think?

archange · 2004-08-05, 09:25

I also wonder why the homunculi's master didn't create them all at once to replace the old ones.
I mean, in ep35 Envy says that the master could do a new greed like if it was nothing for him/her (no body price to pay ??), so why this person waited to get a new sloth,lust,wrath (in the case of wrath it was wise to let him get ed's body part to êrform alchemy

)

in the manga the homunculi are truely the Father's creations, he probably needs to a lot of researches to design better homunculi, but I feel that the anime's "spontaneous generation theory" added by bones just doesn't fit together with this.

kamij0 · 2004-08-05, 09:31

There are plot holes, but there are unfinished plots too,

1)The death of huges, didnt the two brothers noticed anything suspicious, ever since they saw armstrong with that frank archer, they didnt even ask about huges.

2) Dante's death, yeah yeah ... we'll get that covered soon i think. But do they seriously think of giving us some answers ?

3) Izumi and her son, so thats the end ? Izumi not going to do anything ? Besides she's gone right ? she wont have much chance to appear in FMA.

4)Ishbal people seemed so unimportant after scar's death , sidelined too ?

Akichan · 2004-08-05, 11:07

Re: Juliet Douglas Theory....

I'm a little surprised that we're still discussing this. From what I gathered in regards to Martel's story, was the fact that the war in Ishbal was CAUSED by Martel's unit running in and assassinating the Ishvarites to the point where they began to resist and all hell broke loose. I thought the point of her story was to prove that what they (Ed and Al) knew about the Ishbal war, was wrong. Granted, they didn't know about Juliet Douglas, however, I thought she was explaining the cause of the war.

Now in regards to Juliet Douglas, I think the fact that she died two years before the war is true. I also think her name remained on the books, that's true too. I think the name and incident was then used as a way to explain the situation - it doesn't make it true. Why else would Martel's group all be experimented on, probably assassinated? On top of that, how many Ishvarites are goin to come forth with the truth about how the war began? If they're like Scar, they're probably not that interested in talking about the war.

Of course, this is just another theory. ^^

Er, episode 43 spoiler...

Spoiler:

I'm willing to bet, in fact, that Pride is the oldest sin. Now that's not to say he spent 130 years in the military, because that would be suspicious. And we don't quite know all of the powers of his eye, it could have an illusionary quality to it that could have made him appear to be younger to others before, when he began. He may not actually be aging. There must be something there, because otherwise I think Alphonse would have put up a fight when Pride killed Martel.

It could be that until 'that person' came along, Pride, Envy and probably Greed just had nothing to do, or maybe 'that person' made the first sin. (Actually, I like that better, LOL due to the fact they need the incomplete stone to survive, it appears.)

Dante had to have been 130 years old, and if she'd done soul-transfer before, then Greed wouldn't have recognized her, so, it could be something to do with performing human transmutation, and surviving it. Which brings the question: What's the deal with Hoenheim's memories? And, did he perform the same sin?

Hopefully the next 8-10 (and I say this with respect to the MANY opposing viewpoints on the number of remaining episodes) episodes will solve some of these inconsistancies.

Akichan ^^

Zauren · 2004-08-05, 11:08

I agree that the Archer thing is suspicious, but not impossible. Note that the people just vanished. Someone else said it before, it's likely that they were sent to the Gate, or otherwise had the bodyparts needed for the philosopher's stone taken (Much like the toll), and what was left was dropped behind. To some, they lost their entire body a la Al, but others were likely just severely mauled. Archer WAS at the very edge of the light, so it's possible he was taken after the toll was mostly done. And for the most part I agree with the discrepencies, although I don't like looking into them enough to soil prior experiences in the Anime.

Yebyosh · 2004-08-05, 12:58

Regarding Pride, Bradley knows that Al is trusted by Ed. He knows that the Elrics is regarded as a hero by a lot of the common folk despite being military lap dogs. He also knows that Ed is respected in the army despite being a young brat, due to his exploits, force of arms show with Mustang, etc. All these point to the fact that if Ed got a whiff of information regarding Bradley as a Homunculus, it is possible that discord and distrust will arise, disrupting his scheme in the army. All it takes is always a little crack to destroy the dam that stands forever.

And like I said, pride is not overconfidence. Too many people keep mistaking that. A haughty person need not be so proud of his skills. A proud person can be dumbest idiot on the Earth and yet look down on every one in his path just because they are 'inferior'. Hence confidence in one's plans not the position of one's rank indicates pride in any way. Even beggers can have pride, so why is the rank of Bradley's ascendency be placed as pride?

You can try taking the anime crew's flaw in determining the adequacy of Bradley's actions as overconfidence. But I say it is flawed. If I want to keep something quiet, no one is allowed to leave to voice it out. Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi.

To dreamless, fact is from the information gathered from the anime, the initial Homunculi as Sins were accidents. No one specifically designed one to occur (unlike manga). Like archange said, if they can be designed, why can't 'that person' create them all as he/she wanted to? In fact Envy pointed out that 'that person' can create another Greed. But would it be the same Greed with the same powers? Can 'that person' create a Sin as intended, current evidence (different Sins from different folks) seems to point towards no.

Even if Bradley ages slowly, assuming he ages twice as slow as a normal person, no army is going to freakin believe a private at the age of 55 (est 110 years old) is going to perform so well and going through 20 years to become the Fuhrer without looking like 65 (est 130 years old). Heck which army is going to allow a 55 year old to enlist as a private unless they were reaching really badly for manpower?

So the Pride = Fuhrer is really working out badly now...

Regarding Frankenstein Archer, look at 18:53 of episode 42. The light surrounds all the buildings and beyond. Looking at 18:21 will give you an idea of how the city looks like. Look at 18:44-18:45 and you will notice that Archer is amongst the buildings, meaning he is deep inside the transmutation already. He was not at the edge, he was inside. Frankly like I stated, I find it hard to believe that a true Philosopher's Stone would take only 1000 lives. It is too cheap. Scar planned for the whole army which implies 7000.

Here's another minor plothole, courtesy of dreamless

H. Love shall conquer all!!! (Episode 35)

Facts:
- Rujon was manipulated to cure a petrifying disease.
- Rujon cures the disease with use of a incomplete Philosopher's Stone from Lust.
- All part of Envy's plan.

Consider:
- When Rujon falls fatally wounded by Lust's Ultimate Halberd, you immediatedly hear screams all around and people dying.
- Yet when Libia runs in much later, she is alive and well, passing everyone who is already dead from petrification, only to die in Rujon's arms (ok, not his arms, she's the one doing the embracing).

Possible Explanation:
- There is an aura where the disease function. It has a range and likely emnates from the center of the village or Rujon himself. Not likely because the villages would have tried getting help by sending people outside and would have discovered the range of the disease.
- Anime crew just want a nice 'fatal couple' moment to make romantics go "awwww"

Plot hole severity: Minor and irrelevant and boring

The following are from me

I. The Running Man (Episode 42)

Facts:
- Scar lost both arms
- Scar runs around like an Olympic Sprinter

Consider:
- You try running around at full speed with your arms tied up close to your torso (to simulate loss of arms)
- Our arms are flailing around when we are running for a reason. Balance!

Possible Explanation:
- Scar has mastered the ancient Chinese art of qinggong! This allows him to float like a butterfly, disregarding balance issues!
- Scar has a very, very, very low center of gravity, somewhere at his knees or lower...
- Scar.... uh... well... he's SCAR THE RUNNING MAN!!!

Plot hole severity: Average but so funny when you try to reason it out

Some more clarifications

3. Lust's Ultimate Halberd

Facts:
- taken from 最強の矛 "Saikyou no Hoko" (Chapter 30)
- Literally Strongest Polearm
- It's actually a spear with a curved blade extension, the Chinese footman used it a lot. In fact, the basic footman spear and its variations is classified as a 矛 in the East.
- Europeans however call it the Halberd though it bears only a resemblance to it.
- So depending on how picky you want to be, you can go with Spear or Halberd.

4. Episode 44 - 光のホーエンハイム

Facts:
- 光 or Hikari or Guang1 (Chinese) basically means Light
- However they can also mean Fame or Glory
- In the Japanese Dictionary, under the meanings of 光, besides luminance and light, there's also 光栄。はえあるもの。名誉。
- Or Glory. A splendid or glorius thing. Prestige.
- So those who side with "Hohemheim's Light", "Light of Hohemheim", please explain what does that mean?! Star Wars? (Come to the Light Side, Hohemheim.... I am your son...)
- I personally prefer "The Glory of Hohemheim" or "The Splendid Hohemheim" (yes, my initial use of Fame was bad but the concept was there)
- "The Splendid Hohemheim" sounds nice. Hmm, I'll stick by this

dreamless · 2004-08-05, 13:27

Quote:

Even if Bradley ages slowly, assuming he ages twice as slow as a normal person, no army is going to freakin believe a private at the age of 55 (est 110 years old) is going to perform so well and going through 20 years to become the Fuhrer without looking like 65 (est 130 years old). Heck which army is going to allow a 55 year old to enlist as a private unless they were reaching really badly for manpower?

actually I didn't mean he age slowly, but I think it could be that he stops aging when consuming enough proto-PS, and start aging when he stops consuming them. I mean, from the anime, Wrath grew normally (I think) before he consumed the proto-PS, so I think maybe there's a connection between consuming proto-PS and homunculus not aging... And maybe if a homunculus stops consuming proto-PS it will start to age normally?

come to think about it, it seems the homunculi automatically have the mark of Ouroboros on a random location on their body? since Wrath had that mark before enlisted as a Sin...

Sonhex · 2004-08-05, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Regarding Pride, Bradley knows that Al is trusted by Ed. He knows that the Elrics is regarded as a hero by a lot of the common folk despite being military lap dogs. He also knows that Ed is respected in the army despite being a young brat, due to his exploits, force of arms show with Mustang, etc. All these point to the fact that if Ed got a whiff of information regarding Bradley as a Homunculus, it is possible that discord and distrust will arise, disrupting his scheme in the army. All it takes is always a little crack to destroy the dam that stands forever.

And like I said, pride is not overconfidence. Too many people keep mistaking that. A haughty person need not be so proud of his skills. A proud person can be dumbest idiot on the Earth and yet look down on every one in his path just because they are 'inferior'. Hence confidence in one's plans not the position of one's rank indicates pride in any way. Even beggers can have pride, so why is the rank of Bradley's ascendency be placed as pride?

You can try taking the anime crew's flaw in determining the adequacy of Bradley's actions as overconfidence. But I say it is flawed. If I want to keep something quiet, no one is allowed to leave to voice it out. Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi.

Well, maybe Ed is respected amongst his immediate military kin (i.e.Mustang's gang) but at the point when Pride kills Martel he's already said that Ed may be dead. Kimblee then says if he isn't already dead he'll turn him into a corpse. Bradley doesn't say anything to the contrary. He doesn't care about Ed being alive or dead at that point. He's not concerned with him. This probably extends to Al too.

I agree that being proud does not necessarily mean overconfidence, especially as a character trait, you can be proud and stupid. But Bradley does not fit this description. Pride is also defined as 'excessive self esteem or confidence' in my dictionary, and this fits aspects of his personality and demeanour perfectly. Watch his scenes (especially the one with Martel) and tell me he doesn't have extreme confidence in his abilities.

I think we can agree to disagree as I find Bradley's actions and manner entirely acceptable (if not logical, granted) considering the power and influence he possesses within the Military and his Sin namesake. In a way he's like a aged military tactician, who knows the army inside out and wouldn't consider a lowly subordiate to be a threat to him in anyway. Think Jack Nicholson's character in 'A Few Good Men'...

jonli · 2004-08-05, 15:46

I read through most of what you guys said....but too many words....especially your dam long posts, Yebyosh

.

And i was a bit surprised that no one mentioned about Sloth's ability (well from what i read i didnt see anyone mention it...unless i missed it...it's a sea of words you know...).

Since homunculus are made from the same material as human beings there transformations should be based on what materials our body is made of.

Greed: Ultimate Shield, carbon, changing it's molecular lining/structure it'll change it's malleability and it's hardness.

Lust: Same as Greed i assume but on her fingers.

Envy: Changing forms from one human to another, we are all made of same components.

Gluttony: Acid....I assume he somehow brings his stomach acid to his mouth....and changes it's concentration.

And for Sloth, her WHOLE body becomes water (damit even her homunculus costume). What the hell? Our whole body is not made of water, although most parts of it, she can't possibly morph into a pile of water. It goes against the laws of alchemy (in this anime).

Same as Yebyosh i think the series went down hill after episode 25 (best episode in this series imo).

wolfi_1412 · 2004-08-05, 16:10

I have something to say, I thought Pride said to kill everyone who knows about the secret of Ishbal war, then shouldn't Ed, Lyla, Roze be killed?
And I'm not sure if Al saw Pride's Homunculus eye, because he does have the 'line' eye when he approach Al.

About Archer, I have a feeling that he won't live long or he will seek for revenge or he will join the Sins (as a traitor)

Hohemheim (according to my brother):
my brother said that Hohemheim was already much older than Sara when he met Sara
because he said 'you've grown up' means that he knows what Sara looks like when he was small, of course you won't say 'you've grown up' to a person who's the same of your age..

I have a hunch, if Hohemheim is the master, no wonder Winry's parents were to be asked to be killed in the war... After all it was an order from the Fuhrer right? so it might be like:
- Hohemheim is the master
- If Sara didn't die, she knows that Hohemheim didn't age (might)
- To keep his secret, Hohemheim ordered Pride to kill the Rockebell doctors
- His secret is kept now.
Note: if Hohemheim is more than a 100 years old, that means Trisha married an ojii-san!

I think the Fuhrer might have aged really, really, really slow. By the time he looks 40's or something, he joined the Sin and serve the military until he becomes the Fuhrer now, so no one might knew what the Fuhrer looks when he was young..

correct me if I'm somewhat wrong in the timeline.

Teh Dave · 2004-08-05, 16:34

Unfortunatly, I think Yebosh's judgement is clouded by his FMA Manga > Anime Bias:

1: On the subject of Bradley, I'm afraid the anime has revealled too little about him to making these kind of assumptions. As of Ep40, it appears that someone DOES design the homonoculus. As Ed says "They wouldn't survive for long in that form". It is then highly likely that their master rescues them, then gives them their abilities. Greed may not know Bradley. He knew of a Pride before he was sealed, but as has been seen before, "Sins" can be replaced. He may not be the same Pride Greed knew. Finally, it looks to me like the anime will take the same approach to Bradley as the Manga does (ie, a homonuculus designed not too age). It's already been shown in the anime that he has a wife, so his family unit is probably the same as it is in the Manga.

2: The Kimbley point is fair enough.

3: It seemed quite obvious to me that Bradley dispatched Martyl incredibly quickly. In ep40, it was portrayed slowly for drama, but from Al's point of view, he'd have just seen a short flash of Bradley and his eye, then him seathing his sword. It could be considered more bad direction than a plot hole, but I thought it was handled pretty well.

4: Archer. As I said in another topic, it's possible that the activation of the array took everyone beyond the gate, the philiosopher's stone was created, and the excess "parts" were then discarded. Going by past events, this seems highly likely.

5: Alphonse as the stone. As you said, it's probably still incomplete. Ed also warns Al from causing alchemic reactions, as he doesn't want him to dissapear. This implies that Ed believes the philospher's stone to be an expendable object instead of a permanent one.

6: On the subject of the Chimeras, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that they didn't resemble humans at all until Tucker had fixed them up himself.

Some good points are raised, but I think you're being a tad picky. Looking for plotholes where there may be none. Half the time, your plot holes require as much imagination to define as they do to fill.

2004-08-05, 04:23	Link #1
Yebyosh 冤枉的小狗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South East Asia	[Anime] Let's explore the plot holes! And clarify some things. Personal opinion of the series so far Spoiler for Personel opinion: It was really good up to episode 25 then it starts to crap out for me. I find a lot of faults with the current developments though. The 4th OP's song is terrible but Media Player has a mute button that allows me to enjoy the animation without that droning. Plot holes, many and some big enough to hurt when you fall inside... Plot holes A. Bradley as Pride Facts: - Bradley is Pride - Greed knows Pride - None of Greed's contacts know who is Pride - Greed therefore knows Bradley - Bradley is therefore 130++ years old Consider: - Bradley is Fuhrer/President - He must have served in military rising through the ranks - That takes many years (at least 20 years to account for pre-Ishuvaru and Ishuvaru conflicts) - No one noticed he never ages?! - No one designs the Homunculi - Bradley cannot age or ages slowly - Since Gluttony doesn't age, Pride likely cannot age as well. Possible Explanation: - Amestris citizens and soldiers are idiots - Anime crew's bumbling effort to interject mystery without checking events proper Plot hole severity: Severe, horrible Note: Manga's Bradley's background should not be used to try to explain any of anime Bradley's failings since they are now considered to be two different kinds. B. Scar & dead Kimblee (Ep 42) Facts: - Scar kicks the corpse of Kimblee off the walls of the ruins in front of Archer - Scar has no arms at all Consider: - Scar lost quite a lot of blood - That wall is one storey above street level - Scar & Kimblee had their battle in the center of the ruins. The wall is at the edge of the ruins. That's a far distance... - How the heck did Scar get Kimblee's body up to that wall to kick it down? Possible Explanation: - Scar kicks the corpse all the way from the center to the edge of the ruins, up the steps and down the wall. He will die from the exertion and blood loss from this, so no... - Lust carries the corpse for him... Yeah... right... whoever believes Lust would willingly do that for him and that he(Scar) accepts that favour must be a Rujon (ep 36). Plot hole severity: Bad C. Pride & Alphonse (Ep 42) Facts: - Pride fights Martel and the super Homunculus actually fails to kill her right there in an advantageous situation - Martel slinks inside Alphonse and tells him Bradley is a Homunculus Consider: - Bradley, a Homunculus, slowly moves step by step towards his prey which will reveal important information to Alphonse - Bradley shows his evil eye to Alphonse and let him lives?! - Bradley is aware of Alphonse's knowledge of what an Uroborus tattoo mean. - Bradley then lies to Alphonse, does he expect Alphonse to believe that and forget he is a Homunculus? - Bradley then lets Alphonse go off with the knowledge that he is a Homunculus to spread around Possible explanation: - Anime crew's "make the plot exciting" device - The Homunculi decide to let Edward & Alphonse know who Bradley really is. Their current actions doesn't make sense in this detail. Why should they alert them? It is much better to keep them in the dark, then kill those Elric brats off. Plot hole severity: Severe D. Martel's covert ops Facts: - Dorchet said they became Chimeras after suffering heavy injuries in the Eastern Wars. This was at the Devil's Nest (episode 33). - Martel said they became Chimeras after a covert ops. This was when she was traveling with Ed & Al (epsidode 39) Consider: - Martel did not dispute Dorchet's statements. - Fourteen years ago, there were already souls grafted to armors and people don't suspect Al for anything else? - Why should Tucker's research be so intensely followed by General Basque Grand if they have the perfect Human Chimeras? His types of Chimeras are inferior in terms of sophistication to what Roah, Dorchet and Martel are. Possible explanation: - Dorchet lied. However his lies would be pointless. To scare Al? That story was not scary. As a joke? Uh... right... - Anime crew tried to make a grand plot but forgot all the details. Plot hole severity: Minor Note: the covert ops story can co-exist with the "Juliet Douglas shooting a kid, starting the war" story. The ops happened first and the Douglas incident happened afterwards, sparking off the whole war. In fact, they are likely to be both true. The plothole above is concerned with the creation of the military Chimeras. E. Kimblee the Mad Clapper Facts: - Kimblee is notorious in the Amestris Military - Kimblee has two different alchemical sigils inscribed on one each on his palms - Kimblee performs his Bomb Alchemy by clapping his palms together Consider: - No one among the military judges ever considered Edward might be doing the same in his Certification? They just simply accepted his "no sigil Alchemy" as is? Possible explanations: - The military panel do not know of Kimblee. Not possible since Kimblee is a very infamous figure (he killed his own men! A heinous crime to military personel) - The military panel can see Ed's palms. Not likely, they are not there to scrutinise the applicant's appearance. Furthermore at no time was Ed's palms shown clearly to them (he wore gloves) Plot hole severity: Minor but irksome Note: Manga's Kimblee was never shown how he uses Alchemy. So if he does do a 'clap' Alchemy, this flaw can be extended to Arakawa-sensei as well. But until it is shown to be so, this is an anime flaw. F. Hey look! It's Elephant Man Archer!!! Facts: - Brevet Colonel Frank Archer went into the ruins of Lioru - At the end of the ep43, Frank Archer was shown on the stretcher with half (ok 3 quarters) of his face, alive. Horribly disfigured but alive. Consider: - Frank Archer was totally enveloped by the growing sphere of purple/indigo/violet light - Everything swallowed by that light is gone/vanished/vamooshed! (except Alphonse & the sand...) - Yet he survives to lose only half(ok 1/4) a face while 1000 soldiers are wiped out of this world? Possible explanation: - Anime crew's plot device to keep one angry vengeful villian, as stupid as it is - Frank Archer's AT Field could only protect half his face yes, a sarcastic joke Plot hole severity: Terrible, awful G. Alphonse into the Philosopher's Stone Facts: - According to the characters, Alphonse is the Philosopher's Stone - Supposedly it took the lives of all the 1000 soldiers (except miraculous Frank Archer who escaped by using his l33t ummm what?) Consider: - They were in the ruins of Lioru with lots of ruins/buildings/junk - Everything is gone after the light - The conclusion is the transmutation even took those buildings (inorganics) to make the Philosopher's Stone - Then why not the sand? Why not a big empty bowl in the ground with Alphonse either lying at the bottom or mysteriously floating in mid-air (ground level actually) with mysterious energy shining or crackling around him. - The Stone only needed 1000 lives? That's cheap. In fact, it was likely that the 5th Laboratory already had used up hundreds to thousands of lives to play with. Possible explanations: - The transmutation 'absorbs' organics and converts inorganics into sand. Not likely, since it should have converted inorganics into just their basic elemental compositions, thus you should find metals, silica, sulphur, gases, etc. - Regarding the Stone, someone suggested it was still incomplete, that it required all the lives of the world to make a true stone. This seems in line with the overall philosophy of the series. But then, Alphonse said they obtained it... Plot hole severity: Average Last edited by Yebyosh; 2004-08-05 at 08:49. Reason: Corrected some facts on Martel's case

2004-08-05, 04:25	Link #2
Yebyosh 冤枉的小狗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South East Asia	Too much to write for plot holes. Now to help clarify some stuff up! Some Clarification: 1. Juliet Douglas Facts: - She died 2 years before the whole Ishuvaru mess started - Proof: Hughes' statement "Sono Mae wa Ishuvaru Nairan no Ninen Mae ni Shibotteiru hatsuan desu yo." or "It has been suggested that that person died 2 years before the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict." This statement was made 4 years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation (which the war had already ended long ago by then). - Juliet Douglas supposedly sparked off the Ishuvaru Civil Conflict by shooting one Ishuvaru kid - Juliet Douglas was never stricken off the military rosters - Juliet Douglas suddenly 'reappeared' two years after Ed & Al's Human Transmutation - In the following two years, Juliet Douglas rose through the ranks to become the President's Secretary/Fuhrer's Adjutant Any possible flaws: - Surely someone serving long in the military, e.g. General Hakuro, the Eastern Sector's General, might have known of Juliet Douglas's military history and point out who Juliet Douglas is (and it is not likely she will look like Trisha Elric) Possible explanation: - Envy disguised himself as Juliet Douglas and sparked off the war. - The current Juliet Douglas is the Homunculus Sloth who assumed the role 2 years ago - Everyone who knows the real Juliet Douglas has to be dead (this is extreme but well within the Homunculi's methods) Note: Actually it is a lesser version of the "Fuhrer = Pride" flaw but has a concrete possible solution. However the handling of it still feels rather raw with loose edges. 2. Any Homunculus saying "He" in the English fansubs Facts: - In the original Japanese dialogue, it was always "Ano Hito" or literally "that person", or "Sono Mae" or literally "This person(cruder term)" on every occassion - The mysterious person the Homunculi refer to was never referred to with a gender - As such, the person can be a male or female Last edited by Yebyosh; 2004-08-05 at 08:51. Reason: Corrected format error 'fansubs' & Facts were joined in 2. (see Rattus's post for proof of error)

2004-08-05, 11:07	Link #13
Akichan Ichi wa zen, zen wa ichi Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The land of ice and snow... Age: 40	Re: Juliet Douglas Theory.... I'm a little surprised that we're still discussing this. From what I gathered in regards to Martel's story, was the fact that the war in Ishbal was CAUSED by Martel's unit running in and assassinating the Ishvarites to the point where they began to resist and all hell broke loose. I thought the point of her story was to prove that what they (Ed and Al) knew about the Ishbal war, was wrong. Granted, they didn't know about Juliet Douglas, however, I thought she was explaining the cause of the war. Now in regards to Juliet Douglas, I think the fact that she died two years before the war is true. I also think her name remained on the books, that's true too. I think the name and incident was then used as a way to explain the situation - it doesn't make it true. Why else would Martel's group all be experimented on, probably assassinated? On top of that, how many Ishvarites are goin to come forth with the truth about how the war began? If they're like Scar, they're probably not that interested in talking about the war. Of course, this is just another theory. ^^ Er, episode 43 spoiler... Spoiler: Well if we have Hoenheim talking about memories from over a hundred years prior, what's to say that the Fuhrer can't be over 130 years old? I'm willing to bet, in fact, that Pride is the oldest sin. Now that's not to say he spent 130 years in the military, because that would be suspicious. And we don't quite know all of the powers of his eye, it could have an illusionary quality to it that could have made him appear to be younger to others before, when he began. He may not actually be aging. There must be something there, because otherwise I think Alphonse would have put up a fight when Pride killed Martel. It could be that until 'that person' came along, Pride, Envy and probably Greed just had nothing to do, or maybe 'that person' made the first sin. (Actually, I like that better, LOL due to the fact they need the incomplete stone to survive, it appears.) Dante had to have been 130 years old, and if she'd done soul-transfer before, then Greed wouldn't have recognized her, so, it could be something to do with performing human transmutation, and surviving it. Which brings the question: What's the deal with Hoenheim's memories? And, did he perform the same sin? Hopefully the next 8-10 (and I say this with respect to the MANY opposing viewpoints on the number of remaining episodes) episodes will solve some of these inconsistancies. Akichan ^^

2004-08-05, 12:58	Link #15
Yebyosh 冤枉的小狗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South East Asia	Regarding Pride, Bradley knows that Al is trusted by Ed. He knows that the Elrics is regarded as a hero by a lot of the common folk despite being military lap dogs. He also knows that Ed is respected in the army despite being a young brat, due to his exploits, force of arms show with Mustang, etc. All these point to the fact that if Ed got a whiff of information regarding Bradley as a Homunculus, it is possible that discord and distrust will arise, disrupting his scheme in the army. All it takes is always a little crack to destroy the dam that stands forever. And like I said, pride is not overconfidence. Too many people keep mistaking that. A haughty person need not be so proud of his skills. A proud person can be dumbest idiot on the Earth and yet look down on every one in his path just because they are 'inferior'. Hence confidence in one's plans not the position of one's rank indicates pride in any way. Even beggers can have pride, so why is the rank of Bradley's ascendency be placed as pride? You can try taking the anime crew's flaw in determining the adequacy of Bradley's actions as overconfidence. But I say it is flawed. If I want to keep something quiet, no one is allowed to leave to voice it out. Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi. To dreamless, fact is from the information gathered from the anime, the initial Homunculi as Sins were accidents. No one specifically designed one to occur (unlike manga). Like archange said, if they can be designed, why can't 'that person' create them all as he/she wanted to? In fact Envy pointed out that 'that person' can create another Greed. But would it be the same Greed with the same powers? Can 'that person' create a Sin as intended, current evidence (different Sins from different folks) seems to point towards no. Even if Bradley ages slowly, assuming he ages twice as slow as a normal person, no army is going to freakin believe a private at the age of 55 (est 110 years old) is going to perform so well and going through 20 years to become the Fuhrer without looking like 65 (est 130 years old). Heck which army is going to allow a 55 year old to enlist as a private unless they were reaching really badly for manpower? So the Pride = Fuhrer is really working out badly now... Regarding Frankenstein Archer, look at 18:53 of episode 42. The light surrounds all the buildings and beyond. Looking at 18:21 will give you an idea of how the city looks like. Look at 18:44-18:45 and you will notice that Archer is amongst the buildings, meaning he is deep inside the transmutation already. He was not at the edge, he was inside. Frankly like I stated, I find it hard to believe that a true Philosopher's Stone would take only 1000 lives. It is too cheap. Scar planned for the whole army which implies 7000. Here's another minor plothole, courtesy of dreamless H. Love shall conquer all!!! (Episode 35) Facts: - Rujon was manipulated to cure a petrifying disease. - Rujon cures the disease with use of a incomplete Philosopher's Stone from Lust. - All part of Envy's plan. Consider: - When Rujon falls fatally wounded by Lust's Ultimate Halberd, you immediatedly hear screams all around and people dying. - Yet when Libia runs in much later, she is alive and well, passing everyone who is already dead from petrification, only to die in Rujon's arms (ok, not his arms, she's the one doing the embracing). Possible Explanation: - There is an aura where the disease function. It has a range and likely emnates from the center of the village or Rujon himself. Not likely because the villages would have tried getting help by sending people outside and would have discovered the range of the disease. - Anime crew just want a nice 'fatal couple' moment to make romantics go "awwww" Plot hole severity: Minor and irrelevant and boring The following are from me I. The Running Man (Episode 42) Facts: - Scar lost both arms - Scar runs around like an Olympic Sprinter Consider: - You try running around at full speed with your arms tied up close to your torso (to simulate loss of arms) - Our arms are flailing around when we are running for a reason. Balance! Possible Explanation: - Scar has mastered the ancient Chinese art of qinggong! This allows him to float like a butterfly, disregarding balance issues! - Scar has a very, very, very low center of gravity, somewhere at his knees or lower... - Scar.... uh... well... he's SCAR THE RUNNING MAN!!! Plot hole severity: Average but so funny when you try to reason it out Some more clarifications 3. Lust's Ultimate Halberd Facts: - taken from 最強の矛 "Saikyou no Hoko" (Chapter 30) - Literally Strongest Polearm - It's actually a spear with a curved blade extension, the Chinese footman used it a lot. In fact, the basic footman spear and its variations is classified as a 矛 in the East. - Europeans however call it the Halberd though it bears only a resemblance to it. - So depending on how picky you want to be, you can go with Spear or Halberd. 4. Episode 44 - 光のホーエンハイム Facts: - 光 or Hikari or Guang1 (Chinese) basically means Light - However they can also mean Fame or Glory - In the Japanese Dictionary, under the meanings of 光, besides luminance and light, there's also 光栄。はえあるもの。名誉。 - Or Glory. A splendid or glorius thing. Prestige. - So those who side with "Hohemheim's Light", "Light of Hohemheim", please explain what does that mean?! Star Wars? (Come to the Light Side, Hohemheim.... I am your son...) - I personally prefer "The Glory of Hohemheim" or "The Splendid Hohemheim" (yes, my initial use of Fame was bad but the concept was there) - "The Splendid Hohemheim" sounds nice. Hmm, I'll stick by this

2004-08-05, 08:43	Link #6
Yebyosh 冤枉的小狗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South East Asia	To Sonhex and archange, re: Greed knowing Pride. No one besides the Homunculi and 'that person' should know who Pride is. Yet Greed mentions Pride, knowing that Pride's going after the Elrics as Sonhex pointed out (episode 30). The Chimeras could already have told him "Well... King Bradley is our Fuhrer at this time." Greed might find that alias familiar (if Pride had used that name all the time) or Greed could have spotted any posters/books/brochures with Bradley's photo on it with the rank. He would then know what the heck is going on for Pride. Greed also has no compulsions to share with his subordinates what he knows. He sees no need for it. Don't forget that in Episode 31, when Envy meets Greed, they both knew they were going after Wrath, when Sloth appeared, Envy directly pointed her out as a new addition, then deliberately added that Lust is another new addition as well, and mentions that now all 7 are gathered on the world. Hence Envy has already pointed out that Greed knows the Pride that Envy knows, meaning Bradley is from 130+ years ago. If Bradley was a younger member, Greed would not have known about Pride and Envy would have pointed out a new Pride so as to mock Greed. So the conclusion from these events is that Bradley in the anime is 130++ years old and is old school Homunculus. Regarding "Al cannot possibly see the Ultimate Eye", nope he definitely saw it. Ep 40 shows he's at arm reach from Alphonse. Ep 41 shows that we are looking at the Eye from Alphonse's visor (eyes). Hence Alphonse definitely saw that Eye. The sin of pride doesn't mean overconfidence. No matter how much one can take pride in one's abilities, showing off the thing that confirms your secret identity means that the other person will reveal it, unless you kill him. That whole "show the Evil Eye" scene is pointless and only serves as a big blunder on the anime crew. Regarding Martel's losing her body to a landmine.... OOOPS!!! My bad It should be they suffering critical injuries as Dorchet said in episode 33. I shall correct this. Stupid manga and anime differences.... Rattus, yep, I'm pretty much convinced that they tried to squeeze as much manga material to fill in the gaps in their ideas as possible. The effects however is that they could not mesh and smooth out the two materials that good. It is still good but not to the standards of the first half of the series.

2004-08-05, 08:44	Link #7
dreamless /Ultimate Magic Attack!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Time Warp/Future	well, indeed the stuff created by BONES is far more prone to plotholes than the manga... but then about the Pride Bradley part... maybe somehow he ages... I mean, the baby homunculus did age inside the door to grow up as the current Wrath... maybe if a homunculus doesn't consume enough proto-philosopher's stone it starts to age? Pride is shown a very "human" Sin so far... maybe he chose to not consuming the proto-PS and age... or maybe it's some strange alchemy cast by the Master to make him age thus to secure his position as Fuhrer... (the Master can solve everything! ) Also the anime surely sacrifice some plot integrity to get some "WOW" effects. Like in ep35, why that guy turn into stone after he died? and why that girl not turn into stone when that guy died, but turn into stone instantly when she saw him?

2004-08-05, 08:57	Link #8
Yebyosh 冤枉的小狗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: South East Asia	Well, dreamless, if Pride can age 'slowly', then Gluttony must be as wrinkled as him right now. But he's as smooth as a baby Plus according to the design of the anime, Wrath is a very 'special' Homunculus since he is made out of former human parts. Sidenote: We know why Envy will not show aging, he just morphs and maintain that young beautiful pearly white skin . Someone can probably justify Greed's youthful looks as being the effects of being sealed away for 130/140 years (oh yes, forgot this age discrepancy plot hole....) but I prefer to think that he simply could not age at all (in consistency with Gluttony's non-aging) Good call on the Rujon petrification thing. I think I'll force ( ) myself to watch that dreary episode (to me sigh ) to try and figure it out.

2004-08-05, 09:06	Link #10
dreamless /Ultimate Magic Attack!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Time Warp/Future	well, what I meant about Pride is maybe 1. he didn't consume enough proto-PS to stop his aging or 2. the Master made him age so he can keep his position as Fuhrer, thus manipulating the army for the Master about Archer surviving the transmutation thing... I think he's not the only one survived, it's reported there are other soldiers severely injured but survived I think?

2004-08-05, 09:25	Link #11
archange Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	I also wonder why the homunculi's master didn't create them all at once to replace the old ones. I mean, in ep35 Envy says that the master could do a new greed like if it was nothing for him/her (no body price to pay ??), so why this person waited to get a new sloth,lust,wrath (in the case of wrath it was wise to let him get ed's body part to êrform alchemy ) in the manga the homunculi are truely the Father's creations, he probably needs to a lot of researches to design better homunculi, but I feel that the anime's "spontaneous generation theory" added by bones just doesn't fit together with this.

2004-08-05, 09:31	Link #12
kamij0 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	There are plot holes, but there are unfinished plots too, 1)The death of huges, didnt the two brothers noticed anything suspicious, ever since they saw armstrong with that frank archer, they didnt even ask about huges. 2) Dante's death, yeah yeah ... we'll get that covered soon i think. But do they seriously think of giving us some answers ? 3) Izumi and her son, so thats the end ? Izumi not going to do anything ? Besides she's gone right ? she wont have much chance to appear in FMA. 4)Ishbal people seemed so unimportant after scar's death , sidelined too ?

2004-08-05, 11:08	Link #14
Zauren Master of Pimpage Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Salem, OR	I agree that the Archer thing is suspicious, but not impossible. Note that the people just vanished. Someone else said it before, it's likely that they were sent to the Gate, or otherwise had the bodyparts needed for the philosopher's stone taken (Much like the toll), and what was left was dropped behind. To some, they lost their entire body a la Al, but others were likely just severely mauled. Archer WAS at the very edge of the light, so it's possible he was taken after the toll was mostly done. And for the most part I agree with the discrepencies, although I don't like looking into them enough to soil prior experiences in the Anime.

2004-08-05, 15:46	Link #18
jonli JONLIの憂' Join Date: Apr 2004	I read through most of what you guys said....but too many words....especially your dam long posts, Yebyosh . And i was a bit surprised that no one mentioned about Sloth's ability (well from what i read i didnt see anyone mention it...unless i missed it...it's a sea of words you know...). Since homunculus are made from the same material as human beings there transformations should be based on what materials our body is made of. Greed: Ultimate Shield, carbon, changing it's molecular lining/structure it'll change it's malleability and it's hardness. Lust: Same as Greed i assume but on her fingers. Envy: Changing forms from one human to another, we are all made of same components. Gluttony: Acid....I assume he somehow brings his stomach acid to his mouth....and changes it's concentration. And for Sloth, her WHOLE body becomes water (damit even her homunculus costume). What the hell? Our whole body is not made of water, although most parts of it, she can't possibly morph into a pile of water. It goes against the laws of alchemy (in this anime). Same as Yebyosh i think the series went down hill after episode 25 (best episode in this series imo).

2004-08-05, 16:10	Link #19
wolfi_1412 kid(%) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: British Columbia, Canada	I have something to say, I thought Pride said to kill everyone who knows about the secret of Ishbal war, then shouldn't Ed, Lyla, Roze be killed? And I'm not sure if Al saw Pride's Homunculus eye, because he does have the 'line' eye when he approach Al. About Archer, I have a feeling that he won't live long or he will seek for revenge or he will join the Sins (as a traitor) Hohemheim (according to my brother): my brother said that Hohemheim was already much older than Sara when he met Sara because he said 'you've grown up' means that he knows what Sara looks like when he was small, of course you won't say 'you've grown up' to a person who's the same of your age.. I have a hunch, if Hohemheim is the master, no wonder Winry's parents were to be asked to be killed in the war... After all it was an order from the Fuhrer right? so it might be like: - Hohemheim is the master - If Sara didn't die, she knows that Hohemheim didn't age (might) - To keep his secret, Hohemheim ordered Pride to kill the Rockebell doctors - His secret is kept now. Note: if Hohemheim is more than a 100 years old, that means Trisha married an ojii-san! I think the Fuhrer might have aged really, really, really slow. By the time he looks 40's or something, he joined the Sin and serve the military until he becomes the Fuhrer now, so no one might knew what the Fuhrer looks when he was young.. correct me if I'm somewhat wrong in the timeline.

2004-08-05, 16:34	Link #20
Teh Dave z0mg Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Scottieland Age: 41	Unfortunatly, I think Yebosh's judgement is clouded by his FMA Manga > Anime Bias: 1: On the subject of Bradley, I'm afraid the anime has revealled too little about him to making these kind of assumptions. As of Ep40, it appears that someone DOES design the homonoculus. As Ed says "They wouldn't survive for long in that form". It is then highly likely that their master rescues them, then gives them their abilities. Greed may not know Bradley. He knew of a Pride before he was sealed, but as has been seen before, "Sins" can be replaced. He may not be the same Pride Greed knew. Finally, it looks to me like the anime will take the same approach to Bradley as the Manga does (ie, a homonuculus designed not too age). It's already been shown in the anime that he has a wife, so his family unit is probably the same as it is in the Manga. 2: The Kimbley point is fair enough. 3: It seemed quite obvious to me that Bradley dispatched Martyl incredibly quickly. In ep40, it was portrayed slowly for drama, but from Al's point of view, he'd have just seen a short flash of Bradley and his eye, then him seathing his sword. It could be considered more bad direction than a plot hole, but I thought it was handled pretty well. 4: Archer. As I said in another topic, it's possible that the activation of the array took everyone beyond the gate, the philiosopher's stone was created, and the excess "parts" were then discarded. Going by past events, this seems highly likely. 5: Alphonse as the stone. As you said, it's probably still incomplete. Ed also warns Al from causing alchemic reactions, as he doesn't want him to dissapear. This implies that Ed believes the philospher's stone to be an expendable object instead of a permanent one. 6: On the subject of the Chimeras, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that they didn't resemble humans at all until Tucker had fixed them up himself. Some good points are raised, but I think you're being a tad picky. Looking for plotholes where there may be none. Half the time, your plot holes require as much imagination to define as they do to fill.