2010-10-29, 10:25 | Link #3181 | |
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2010-11-04, 20:47 | Link #3185 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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I have a question. According to the game you need prana to maintain a RM from the corrective impulses of the World. If so, would archer be able to maintain his RM indefinitely outside Gaia's sphere of influence;unless Akasha or other higher entities tries to crush it.
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2010-11-04, 20:52 | Link #3186 |
"Hey, Isaac?"
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I... think that as a Counter Guardian, Archer's RM gets an 'exemption' from the prana cost. Like, he's a part of the world, so his version of UBW is as well, and the world doesn't try to crush it like it does a normal Reality Marble.
I'm not sure about this, though, I'll openly admit that, so don't take it as gospel. |
2010-11-04, 21:21 | Link #3187 | |
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Age: 39
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2010-11-04, 21:24 | Link #3188 | |
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2010-11-04, 22:26 | Link #3189 | |
"Hey, Isaac?"
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And besides, the only time he used the actual Reality Marble he didn't have a Master, remember. He'd already lost his contract with Rin and killed Caster. |
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2010-11-04, 23:14 | Link #3190 | ||
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Yeah, I think we can safely dismiss this one.... Quote:
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2010-11-08, 07:37 | Link #3191 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Okay, first of all, since I forgot to mention this earlier, I can't help but appreciate the way Nasu made Shirou out to be some sort of machine in the narrative. The static noise we get when Shirou feels fucked up. The glass cracking we get when Shirou tries to use Archers arm and breaks his mind. The magic circuits, and how it looks like wires with electricity running through. The way his mind is just switched off like a TV in some of the bad endings. I just wanted to make that point.
Anyway, moving on I can't help but feel a bit confused by Shirou's UBW ideology. Namely the whole 'saving as many people as possible' thing. It's pretty vague really and could be interpreted in all manor of ways. Here's some examples of how it's applied in the UBW and Fate route: 1) Shirou objected to Archer letting Caster go because she killed many people and would go on killing more, despite the fact that it would get him to the Holy Grail. It seems here he doesn't believe the ends justify the means. 2) Shirou is willing to give up his command spells to save Taiga when Caster threatens to kill her. It seems he doesn't wish to have blood on his hands if that's what it takes to gain the holy grail. 3) Shirou is willing to try his ultimate best to save Ilya right in front of him when he realises he has no chance and would've just gotten himself killed. Again, he'd rather give up his life to save someone than to gain the holy grail. 4) Shirou is willing to kill someone if he is a genuine threat to others (Shinji) but would rather find a peaceful alternative. What I can see here it doesn't seem as if choosing to save Sakura the first time is in anyway contradictory to his UBW ideal. So why, in the UBW route, is Shirou's Ideal called 'borrowed from Kiritsugu's when it seems as if Kiritsugu's ideal is a lot colder (following Kiritsugu's ideal would involve killing Sakura). It seems the extent to which is is willing to find a peaceful alternative is rather vague and ill-defined. This is my problem.
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2010-11-08, 08:58 | Link #3192 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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That's what I am telling like for a year. Shirou never wanted to kill people, especially not someone close to him. Shirou in HF isn't that different, he didn't throw away his ideal and became a selfish murderer like some people like to make him out to be. He definietly changed but more like a postitive way. He realized his own worth as a person. Otherwise he's still the same.
Back to your question: Shirou never exactly adopted Kiritsugu's real ideal. Well, maybe MoS Shirou did. He took in the pure hero of justice kind of ideal what Kiritsugu tried to chase. That's why Archer ends up broken when he's forced to be an Executor as CG. That's not something Shirou wants.He's idealistic defender of justice. For him, people always deserve a second chance. Perhaps he's not as oblivious to ignore the evil deeds of someone. Evil must repent or to be punished. Shirou fights evil in order to preserve the order and he yearns for the happiness of everyone. Indeed, that's damn idealistic but Shirou takes it in such a serious way that it becomes admirable. UBW and Fate Shirou just don't realize or choose to not realize the real reason behind their actions. That's the only way they are different from HF Shirou |
2010-11-08, 09:07 | Link #3193 | |
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Complicating that is Shirou's true wish, which is likely something that he would follow even if he hadn't met Kiritsugu. As Rin says in UBW (about Archer), all Shirou truly wants to do is make people happy, and see them smile. He is truly selfless and has no sense of self-worth, and thus can only obtain joy through the happiness of others. Archer, unfortunately, only realised this too late, after he had made an irrevokable decision to follow Kiritsugu's ideal and accept the contract with the world. Hence why Archer is so broken, because all he ever gets to see is death and sadness. If he truly wanted to follow Kiritsugu's ideal, and was happy doing it, then UBW wouldn't have happened, because Archer would be quite happy with the fact that he was saving people (a Counter-Guardian is basically the ultimate expression of Kiritsugu's ideal), even if he never got to see it and spent all his time murdering innocents. As for the MoS decision, you're right that choosing to save Sakura isn't truly in conflict with Shirou's ideal. However, Shirou is self-depreciating, and sees it as being a selfish act (which, to some extent, it is, I suppose) to put the girl he loves above faceless masses even though, if it had been some random innocent girl, he'd have likely done just the same (indeed, he passes up several opportunities to stop the bad guys in order to avoid bloodshed, like you stated in your post). In fact, had it been some random innocent girl, he'd have probably thought less bad about it, because he would have seen it as only natural to attempt to save this poor, innocent girl who had, as yet, done nothing wrong, rather than as him selfishly putting the people he loves first. Regarding what you posted in the Zero thread, this is why MoS couldn't just go like UBW. UBW Shirou still follows the un-corrupted form of Kiritsugu's ideal, which Archer still respects, even if he knows it is impossible to implement in reality, because it is fully compatible with what Shirou truly wants (HF Shirou's approach is an alternate degredation of that ideal, and one which is far more suited to Shirou's personality). What Archer objects to is the degraded form, which he ended up following and which has led him into a hellish life. UBW Shirou convinces Archer that, even if the corrupted ideal is broken, the original form is worth fighting for, and Rin will (hopefully) stop Shirou from falling into the same trap as Archer fell into. MoS Shirou has already taken the degraded form to heart, and thus Archer would have no compunction about killing him at the first opportunity. That, coupled with the fact that Rin would be on his side and that MoS Shirou is less powerful than UBW Shirou, means that a MoS Archer vs Shirou fight would only have one possible outcome. |
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2010-11-08, 10:42 | Link #3194 | |
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2010-11-08, 11:14 | Link #3195 | |
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Kotomine trolls Shirou and Rin to breaking point, Shirou works with Gil to kill Rin and Archer, Shirou 'wins' the war along with Gil, only to be restrained and forced to watch as Gil summons the Grail to destroy humanity whilst Kotomine laughs. Kotomine then continues laughing as Shirou runs around the world desperately fighting to undo Gil's contamination. Eventually, Shirou makes a deal with the world like Archer did and becomes an even more broken version of him, who is summoned by Rin into another Grail War where he proceeds to knock some sense into her and get her to save her sister before her situation blows up in their faces. The end. Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-11-08 at 11:25. |
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2010-11-08, 12:19 | Link #3196 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Thanks for the reply, Cherry Lover, it made a lot of sense. Now that I think about it, the difference in Shirou's ideal and Archer's ideal is also illustrated in their UBW reality marbles. Shirou's didn't have those wheel cogs in the background, indicating that his ideal is less machine-like.
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2010-11-08, 12:33 | Link #3197 | |
Casting a spell on you...
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Anyway: Kotomine's thought process are all over the spectrum, we cannot be sure where exactly he gets the most lulz. I cite the last fight he had with Shirou, he's flip-flopping everywhere. Also, in this situation, to basically then call her life worthless (which is what you have essentially done) over something she is not even responsible for, is crazy. This is quite the hasty decision here. Actually, were I in such a situation I would see many things that Rin and Shirou had not, and this is not just as as a player. I care not to go into everything at the moment, but there are several points in Heaven's Feel that could have been avoided had there been careful planning. You are making the same mistake as they would, and taking everything at face value. You paint HF Shirou as being irresponsible, however...to make such a decision like ending her life because you were too frazzled to think of a better way is rather foolish and irresponsible as well, don't you think? Also as CL had said in the other thread, Ilya is able to move souls, so it is a viable option had more relaxed minds thought of it. Ilya herself would have known what to do as well, and she was practically the most neutral party there, so your argument about frazzled minds and me using information in hindsight is a moot point . Ilya had several ways to end this without killing her and making sure there were no more victims. Remember that dead end? She has exhibited powers that enable her to have some control over souls, since she was able to keep Shirou alive with just a head like CL pointed out. Rin performs freaking neurosurgery on Shinji while under duress in UBW. There was just flagrant irresponsibility here on the part of the people with superior abilities, so I do not blame Shirou for being hesitant to just off her. I'd actually like to see you talk your way out of that. I was not even making the argument for her to use the Third at all, and there is also no evidence that states she needs all the souls to use the Third, it is just stated to be "incomplete". But that is neither here nor there, my "doll plan" only required her to be able to move souls, and she can do that easily. On your last point, Kotomine couldn't have cared one way or the other as long as AM was born, whether that be through Sakura or not, so he is actually more of the obstacle here, as he can pervert information that could relieve her of that burden. Also on Shirou "winning", I call unreliable narrator there. |
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2010-11-09, 11:28 | Link #3198 | |
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2010-11-20, 21:06 | Link #3199 |
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Location: USA
Age: 37
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Here's a good laugh... Fate/stay night Death List.
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2010-11-21, 04:52 | Link #3200 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Age: 33
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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