Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[dark998]

Best episode in a while. After the not so engaging Kiritsugu's past arc and 20 being the bridge back into current events looks like Fate Zero will be set to high performance mode for the remaining episodes.

[Master_Yoma]

I wonder how long will it be before some one makes Saber bike

[Seitsuki]

They have.

Good luck ever finding one now though.

Unless you meant literally?

[Silvance]

Invisible Air... I can't help but wonder if they could've come up with a better name instead of that one. lol.

I really loved the beginning of the episode. The chasing scene was spectacular, and the music that came along with it just made the experience even better. As for Kariya, well... It sucks to be him. Getting trolled so hard by Kotomine, and his dad loves to see him suffer just as much as he wants the grail.

[hinode]

It's hard for Aoi to even speak up to anyone of subjects that mess with her (including her husband apparently). Since she is pretty doormat-ish, isn't she? Both of them are pretty alike in this sense.

I wouldn't really call Kariya a doormat, he just sucks at talking to women he likes. If were really a doormat he probably wouldn't have even ran from the Matou household in the first place.

(This is just nitpicking, not really disagreeing with your real point here)

Furthermore he didn't answer these questions (“What? What’s going on? How come you are here?”) because she was giving horrified wails and panicked. The text remarks she's a coward twice (to follow him, for her reaction, irrc). She couldn't take in anything and wrapped her mind about that. Furthermore, the misunderstanding came that Kariya was assuming her priority was Sakura, thinking she was a wonderful mother (she isn't), so she must have been disturbed with Sakura's future rather than "the two men of my life are going to kill each others" (probably how Gen makes fun of 'tragic heroine' routine).

Mmm, I read the meaning of the text there a bit differently than you do. She seemed really confused and overwhelmed by all the magical stuff that's she's doesn't know anything about. Then Kariya offers her reassurances that Sakura would end up okay before she could really process what he was implying. Then he continued on about participating in the Grail War, and she connected the dots faster there since she had a better grasp of the background on Grail War then she did about the Matou magecraft stuff.

Looking at it again, you're definately right that Aoi seems to care more about her husband than she does about her daughter, which seems pretty consistent with the rest of her behavior. I wouldn't consider that a moral failing unless she didn't care about her daughter at all, though, which isn't the case.

She's probably too much of a doormat to ever qualify as "wonderful mom", I'll agree thinking about it. Even if Sakura hadn't been given up for adoption (or was adopted by a better family) that passivity would've resulted in some situation or another where Tokiomi put his daughters' magecraft above their welfare without any counterargument.

When it's intentional, it's mentioned (Kariya silencing stuff with Sakura, for instance). It wasn't mentioned. Have you forgotten he is Zouken's puppet? He can't speak of anything against his plans directly... It's like people have some deep selective memory.

Kariya was definately using a gentle touch in talking about Sakura there; he downplayed just how bad the situation was for her by immediately talking about how he was going to save her at the exact same time he implied she might be in trouble. He avoided outright stating that Sakura was in danger, just implying it while putting bigger emphasis on the "don't worry, I've got the situation part under control" part.

And I don't see why Zouken would object to Kariya going more detailed about Sakura's condition. What could Aoi even do if she learned more? Call her husband who's busy with the Grail War and couldn't hurt Zouken even if he even tried? Given his personality I bet Zouken would've just enjoyed the increased despair. If he were that paranoid he wouldn't have allowed Kariya to talk to her at all.

Kariya's not faultless, but I cut him some slack since he's half crazy and wormed, but she's essentially too weak to even speak out. Also he's not really the girls' parents.

Contrary to what my tone's probably implied, I actually cut him a lot of slack because he's increasingly going mad throughout the war and is pretty much entirely at Zouken's mercy. There's no (reasonable) criticism to make of him for Sakura being sent to the Matous that doesn't assume he's some sort of telepath or future seer, and he at least knows enough about Zouken to realize how hard it is to rescue her once she's in Zouken's clutches (i.e. telling Tokiomi about it wouldn't actually solve the problem, even if he agreed to cooperate fully). The only thing I'd really fault him for is signing up to become Zouken's puppet in the first place; even if he somehow won the war, he's counting on Zouken's generosity not to renege on his deal when Kariya gets his hands on the Grail.

I'd been taking the very narrow tack of critizing his actions rather than Kariya himself mainly because I was thinking of real life people who have the same issues Kariya has with in communicating and interacting with women, only they don't have the excuse of crest worms destroying their sanity. Some of them have made comments about Aoi elsewhere that were pretty out there.

Not all of it, Maiya is down and Iri is kidnapped.

Eh, that was due to Kotomine having good scouting and outsmarting them though, not a communication mishap.

[SRanger]

Aoi Tohsaka...screw you Kariya.

[Kaiba]

I kinda saw it as him rationalizing his hatred for Tokiomi by using Sakura as an excuse. The most we can really blame Tokiomi for is his ignorance, or perhaps his callousness. But Kariya, using Sakura's suffering as a clutch, uses this vent all his frustration on Tokiomi for having what he could not have. There's a worm right there.

It's having what he could not have and tossing it into the gutter like so much trash that's the problem for Kariya - remember his outrage when he realizes that Tokiomi really didn't give a damn about the happy sisters and mother because the pride of the magi came first. Kariya before the war never really had a problem with Tokiomi - he didn't like him, but he accepted Aoi's decision.

[Qilin]

^ That's how Kariya would describe it of course.

He 's so intent on hating Tokiomi that he rationalizes his hate by portraying Tokiomi in such a bad light to justify himself. I mean, I find it hard to believe that Kariya didn't feel even a little resentment or jealously towards Tokiomi. It was just Sakura's suffering that brought these suppressed feelings back to the surface.

The fact is that Tokiomi genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing for Sakura. In fact, that was what he said during their first encounter. He probably knew nothing about the Matou's methods, given how mages are so protective of their secrets. However, what he did believe was that the pursuit of magecraft is the most noble path one can take in life. He most likely loved his family like a normal father would, but expressed differently.

Without considering the bigger picture, Kariya paints him into a character most deserving of his hatred to make himself feel better.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Then perhaps I interpreted Kariya's character incorrectly? I still hate his guts though.

I kinda saw it as him rationalizing his hatred for Tokiomi by using Sakura as an excuse. The most we can really blame Tokiomi for is his ignorance, or perhaps his callousness. But Kariya, using Sakura's suffering as a clutch, uses this vent all his frustration on Tokiomi for having what he could not have. There's a worm right there.


Ah. That makes sense. This is another case of moral dissonance between the values held by mages and that of ordinary folk.

His biggest failing was trying to be a hero to Sakura. He saw a little girl being raped by his family member and more or less tortured. I don't know about you, but if I saw that I'd try to do something too. If anything I just wouldn't have the guts to take the steps he did. I don't see how you've come to hate the character this much! He's really the only one looking out for the little girl, her mother cared more about Tokiomi's magus nonsense than raising her daughter.

I interpreted his character like this - he left the Matou magus lineage at a young age, possibly due to the vulgarity and darkness of their techniques (who wouldn't?). He also had a childhood crush on Aoi. Years later, Aoi, who he still has lingering feelings for, gives her child away to Zouken to fill in Kariya's place as the successor. He then felt feelings of immense guilt, knowing that Zouken's techniques will be akin to torture for the young girl, and thinking she'd never be in that position had he simply stepped in as the successor. Feeling it to be his responsibility as the original successor, he sets out to save her. Eventually he learns how her real father, the woman who won Aoi's heart rather than him, is his polar opposite. Whereas Kariya left the magus lineage in disgust, Tokiomi recklessly hands his daughter over to Zouken, caring more about magic circuits than the bonds of love and family. Already having been through quite an ordeal with the worms eating him from the inside out, he begins to resent Tokiomi for his nonchalant attitude in regards to his daughter's well being, while he more or less sacrifices his life for her freedom. Adding to that pain is the fact that Aoi chose this entirely inept father over him in some unseen past of the series. It's more of a side angle that heightens his frustration than the main aspect of his feelings.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Without considering the bigger picture, Kariya paints him into a character most deserving of his hatred to make himself feel better.

Well sure, the fact that he won over his childhood love heightens and probably distorts Kariya's perception of how much fault lies in Tokiomi's hands. That doesn't excuse Tokiomi's actions, however. I think he showed himself to be a callous and terrible father. Giving away one's daughter so she can become a better magus is pretty screwed up. Clearly he has different values, but his values are bad... Whether he has a different mentality/outlook on matters is irrelevant to the negative outcomes, and poor parenting he exhibits...

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

His biggest failing was trying to be a hero to Sakura. He saw a little girl being raped by his family member and more or less tortured. I don't know about you, but if I saw that I'd try to do something too. If anything I just wouldn't have the guts to take the steps he did. I don't see how you've come to hate the character this much! He's really the only one looking out for the little girl, her mother cared more about Tokiomi's magus nonsense than raising her daughter.

Well, I wasn't saying his concern for Sakura wasn't genuine or anything, but I doubt that his intentions were completely pure either. I mean, he started the war out with saving Sakura in mind. Then midway, this goal goes to the sideline as he obsesses about killing Tokiomi. If anything, I found that most indicative of his true colors. My main problem with his character is that he pretends to be a hero in shining armor when it's all just an excuse to hide his true feelings.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Well sure, the fact that he won over his childhood love heightens and probably distorts Kariya's perception of how much fault lies in Tokiomi's hands.

That's an understatement. Kariya outright demonizes Tokiomi.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

That doesn't excuse Tokiomi's actions, however. I think he showed himself to be a callous and terrible father. Giving away one's daughter so she can become a better magus is pretty screwed up. Clearly he has different values, but his values are bad... Whether he has a different mentality/outlook on matters is irrelevant to the negative outcomes, and poor parenting he exhibits...

The question here is what exactly makes a good parent? What is the correct way to raise a child?

I'm sure that a layman and a magus would most likely answer the questions differently. One would prioritize strong family bonds and love while the other would prioritize maximizing magic potential. It all becomes a matter of perspective.

[mAc Chaos]

If it's all a matter of perspective, then you can't blame Kariya for simply following his own.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

If it's all a matter of perspective, then you can't blame Kariya for simply following his own.

It's not his perspective I dislike. It's his inability to accept the existence of perspectives outside of his own that bothers me. As such, him demonizing Tokiomi as he does is unwarranted.

[mAc Chaos]

I'm sure he accepts plenty of perspectives, but he dislikes magecraft in general. They pretty much come off as sociopaths to normal people.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Well, I wasn't saying his concern for Sakura wasn't genuine or anything, but I doubt that his intentions were completely pure either. I mean, he started the war out with saving Sakura in mind. Then midway, this goal goes to the sideline as he obsesses about killing Tokiomi. If anything, I found that most indicative of his true colors. My main problem with his character is that he pretends to be a hero in shining armor when it's all just an excuse to hide his true feelings.

A guy that gives up his life, health, sanity, and autonomy to help the little girl... I can't help but feel regardless of his true intentions, his actions were quite heroic up until this point. Would you be willing to make the sacrifices he did in that situation? I sure wouldn't. Also, what makes you say his goal of saving Sakura went to the sideline? He obsesses about killing Tokiomi, sure, but wasn't that one of the prerequisites for winning the war to begin with? He didn't join the war to kill Tokiomi. It just became bitterly ironic that this man, Kariya, who has no connection to the Tohsaka family other than being the *rejected* lover of the wife, is slowly dying from the inside for Sakura's safety, only to be met with Tokiomi, who scorns him for his inability as a mage, already won the heart of his love... and handed Sakura over, expressing little concern for her actual upbringing other than that she become a powerful magus. Hell, he'd even pit his own daughters against each other, all for the glory of the magus! Tokiomi deserved to be punished, and hated, by Kariya, if you ask me. Too bad Kirei got to him first.

The question here is what exactly makes a good parent? What is the correct way to raise a child?

I'm sure that a layman and a magus would most likely answer the questions differently. One would prioritize strong family bonds and love while the other would prioritize maximizing magic potential. It all becomes a matter of perspective.

A matter of perspective? So, had your parents put you up for adoption and cut all ties with you so you could become a better soldier, that doesn't strike you as bad parenting? Tokiomi obviously has a different perspective, and it's a morally reprehensible one. He cares more about status than loving and watching his daughter grow before his eyes. How can you defend those actions and so vehemently hate Kariya's? It's just so bizarre to me.

Originally Posted by Qilin

It's not his perspective I dislike. It's his inability to accept the existence of perspectives outside of his own that bothers me. As such, him demonizing Tokiomi as he does is unwarranted.

That would make sense if this were a morally ambiguous issue like abortion where people can have different perspectives that are both reasonable yet different. This is a rather black-and-white issue. The Tohsaka family lives in a modern world, thus there is no necessity to develop into a magus. Sakura could have been raised as a normal child and lived a fine life, being loved and watched over by her parents. There was no pressing need for her to be given away, indeed, the Tohsaka family is often shown to be quite well-off financially, so in all ways imaginable they could have provided for Sakura just fine. Magus, non-magus, whatever you are, giving up your child for such shallow reasons is detestable. It's not a perspective any rational and moral person should accept.

[Craxuan]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Well, I wasn't saying his concern for Sakura wasn't genuine or anything, but I doubt that his intentions were completely pure either. I mean, he started the war out with saving Sakura in mind. Then midway, this goal goes to the sideline as he obsesses about killing Tokiomi. If anything, I found that most indicative of his true colors. My main problem with his character is that he pretends to be a hero in shining armor when it's all just an excuse to hide his true feelings.

Really, is there anyone out there who has what you would call as completely pure feelings? Of course he secretly hated Tokiomi and is jealous of the fact that he had Aoi. Of course he wanted to save Sakura. Of course Tokiomi became as distorted as a demon in his head because of his suffering. Of course he wanted save Sakura from her terrible fate.

Is there even such a thing called 'true colors'? There are a few people I've known in my life that I would not hesitate to kill in the most cruel way possible, given the right reason and chance, but at the same time I will never wish to inflict such pain on anyone else, and truly wish that the people around me would always be happy. There is no one side to a person's heart.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Really, is there anyone out there who has what you would call as completely pure feelings? Of course he secretly hated Tokiomi and is jealous of the fact that he had Aoi. Of course he wanted to save Sakura. Of course Tokiomi became as distorted as a demon in his head because of his suffering. Of course he wanted save Sakura from her terrible fate.

Is there even such a thing called 'true colors'? There are a few people I've known in my life that I would not hesitate to kill in the most cruel way possible, given the right reason and chance, but at the same time I will never wish to inflict such pain on anyone else, and truly wish that the people around me would always be happy. There is no one side to a person's heart.

Indeed, and it makes characters more believable when they have deep, conflicting emotions like that.

[Shimon712]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

That would make sense if this were a morally ambiguous issue like abortion where people can have different perspectives that are both reasonable yet different. This is a rather black-and-white issue. The Tohsaka family lives in a modern world, thus there is no necessity to develop into a magus. Sakura could have been raised as a normal child and lived a fine life, being loved and watched over by her parents. There was no pressing need for her to be given away, indeed, the Tohsaka family is often shown to be quite well-off financially, so in all ways imaginable they could have provided for Sakura just fine. Magus, non-magus, whatever you are, giving up your child for such shallow reasons is detestable. It's not a perspective any rational and moral person should accept.

Actually, this isn't as black-and-white as you seem to think. While Tokiomi's actions can be viewed as heartless, he, at least from his own perspective, did it only for the sake of his daughters. You see, Tokiomi views his status as a magus as one of his greatest joys in life, and wouldn't want one of his daughters to be forced to miss out on that opportunity.

A lot of people might disagree with his perspective, I personally do to a certain extent, but there is no doubt that he only did it with Sakura's best interest at heart.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Shimon712

Actually, this isn't as black-and-white as you seem to think. While Tokiomi's actions can be viewed as heartless, he, at least from his own perspective, did it only for the sake of his daughters. You see, Tokiomi views his status as a magus as one of his greatest joys in life, and wouldn't want one of his daughters to be forced to miss out on that opportunity.

A lot of people might disagree with his perspective, I personally do to a certain extent, but there is no doubt that he only did it with Sakura's best interest at heart.

and people also keep missing the point, Tokiomi let the matou adopt her to protect Sakura. It wasn't all about magcraft and bloodlines. It was first and foremost a way to protect Sakura.

Spoiler:

If only he would be able to pass the treasure that he got from his father onto his daughter – Tokiomi thought sadly.
However, that was already impossible to be achieved.
For Rin and Sakura, there were no choices for them in the first place.
One of them has all elements, having five multiple elements as her alignment. The other has no elemental alignments, having Imaginary Numbers only. Both sisters have a rare potential that can be equated to miracles. This had surpassed the limits of so-called natural talents or inborn skill; it is almost like a curse.
A magical nature would equally gather magical powers to it. Prominent people who are far outside the rules inevitably ‘gather’ equally extraordinary experiences. This can not be controlled by the person’s own will. There is only one way to deal with this kind of a destiny – consciously walk away from the rules yourself.
Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover, the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them. This fact tormented Tokiomi for a long time. The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble bound find her. If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.
Precisely because of that, it was nothing better than a godsend for the Matō house to hope to have Sakura as their adopted daughter. He had obtained the way to have both his beloved daughters inherit first-class magecraft, unconstrained by their bloodline’s consequence, and carve out their own lives. At that time, Tokiomi could be said to be freed from the heavy burden of being a father.

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in...:Act_12_Part_3

these were Tokiomi's thought during his last meeting with Rin and right before his meeting with Iri.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Shimon712

Actually, this isn't as black-and-white as you seem to think. While Tokiomi's actions can be viewed as heartless, he, at least from his own perspective, did it only for the sake of his daughters. You see, Tokiomi views his status as a magus as one of his greatest joys in life, and wouldn't want one of his daughters to be forced to miss out on that opportunity.

A lot of people might disagree with his perspective, I personally do to a certain extent, but there is no doubt that he only did it with Sakura's best interest at heart.

I don't think that really matters. Strangely, this is reminding me of a recent story about a mother bringing her very young daughter to a tanning salon. She is addicted to and cannot live without tanning, and certainly must consider it one of the joys of life. So from her perspective, bringing her daughter to the salon is in her best interest. We all know the great dangers and consider her a fool for bringing her child. Tokiomi is the same. You can rationalize his perspective endlessly, but it does not excuse his actions.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

and people also keep missing the point, Tokiomi let the matou adopt her to protect Sakura. It wasn't all about magcraft and bloodlines. It was first and foremost a way to protect Sakura.

I don't buy it. Why is he then so accepting of the hypothetical duel to the death between Rin and Sakura that Kariya proposes? How about, I don't know, he use his magical powers to protect her, and his money to shield her from this ridiculous lifestyle?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I don't buy it. Why is he then so accepting of the hypothetical duel to the death between Rin and Sakura that Kariya proposes? How about, I don't know, he use his magical powers to protect her, and his money to shield her from this ridiculous lifestyle?

ref the spoiler tags in my previous post