Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[wredsa]

I wonder if I am the only stupid one to make a simple mistake.

It took me 5 years to understand the 2nd episode of the Code Geass, where Clovis said my brother made an awesome machine, I used to think Clovis was talking about Loyd but actually he was talking about Schneizel.

Self Faceplm

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by wredsa

I wonder if I am the only stupid one to make a simple mistake.

It took me 5 years to understand the 2nd episode of the Code Geass, where Clovis said my brother made an awesome machine, I used to think Clovis was talking about Loyd but actually he was talking about Schneizel.

Self Faceplm

That machine being The Sky Fortress Damocles:

http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Damocles

Which housed the F.L.E.I.J.A. warheads:

http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/F.L.E.I.J.A.

[shinigami99]

I'm curious...What in the world happened in the immediate aftermath of zero requiem.

Surely it would have been suspicious who this Zero figure was. I don't think Suzaku could keep his secret from the world as long as only Nunnally knew about it. Zero was seen carrying Nunally in the epilogue to meetings with that bastard-who-didn't-deserve-to-live (Ohgi).

My guess was that at least Cornelia had to know, maybe Kaguya, Tianzi and the bastard himself. Also, how would Schneizel do all of Zero's commands without somebody noticing something wrong.

I would also have liked a more immediate reaction to his death (as in that night and the day after his death)-especially Kallen and those who may have figured out his plan.

Oh well, that is what fanfiction is for I guess :/

[Aquaman OS]

The people that knew, I guess agreed to keep it a secret. They likely figured out that it was his plan all along and respected his wishes and kept their mouths shut.

[Lost Cause]

To counter that, "All good things must come to an end", eventually human nature or another world power would contest the Requime or try there own rebellion against the UFN.
But we'll probably never know.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

To counter that, "All good things must come to an end", eventually human nature or another world power would contest the Requiem or try there own rebellion against the UFN.
But we'll probably never know.

Probably for the best. I like to think that Code Geass ends right there with the sort of ending that could only come through Lelouch's sacrifice.

Another thing I want to point out is would Cornelia had adopted Lelouch and Nunnally if Emperor Charles had not sent them to Japan?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Probably for the best. I like to think that Code Geass ends right there with the sort of ending that could only come through Lelouch's sacrifice.

Another thing I want to point out is would Cornelia had adopted Lelouch and Nunnally if Emperor Charles had not sent them to Japan?

Someone secretly initiating instrumentality, causing the end that happen?

[somersault]

http://moniata.tumblr.com/post/46817...original-photo

Translation of the Naked Memory Album, with commentary from Gino (sadly, God I hate him), Rivalz (good good on that one) and Kallen (yaaaaaas.)
Some really interesting, funny and touching stuff altogether. Treat yourself.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Probably for the best. I like to think that Code Geass ends right there with the sort of ending that could only come through Lelouch's sacrifice.

Late reply: things could have ended MUCH better, as deconstructed by at least a few fanfics.

[somersault]

Originally Posted by azul120

Late reply: things could have ended MUCH better, as deconstructed by at least a few fanfics.

Personally, I thought the ending was satisfactory, amidst the mess that R2 was; sure, season 2 was enjoyable as hell, but goddammit there were some plotholes that could be seen by a blind man.
Even so, an ending's purpose, as it has been stated by a famous dude I can't remember (even though I took a uni class on that damn subject), must have a logical conclusion and the result of the whole outcome should make sense on the audience's mind by the entirety of what it was presented, even if it doesn't appeal to the generic wishes and wishful thinkings; and like the writers said, they changed many stuff in R2, but the ending was planned from the beginning. Honestly, Lelouch's whole journey could only end like this.

Now, if someone could have let a random nuke fall into the place of that goddamn Viletta/Ougi wedding, with only survivors being Kallen, Milly, Rivalz, Lloyd and a couple others, that would be the ultimate best ending. Ever.

[Xander]

Ultimately, each person is free to hold their own opinions about the ending and the series as a whole. There's no such thing as one correct view.

In that sense, the whole "but fanfics did it better" card feels rather flat since they will only be "better" for those who prefer their specific interpretations and changes.

At that point, all of this turns into an endless debate where multiple assumptions, varying personal preferences and opposing expectations are being traded like stocks.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by somersault

Personally, I thought the ending was satisfactory, amidst the mess that R2 was; sure, season 2 was enjoyable as hell, but goddammit there were some plotholes that could be seen by a blind man.
Even so, an ending's purpose, as it has been stated by a famous dude I can't remember (even though I took a uni class on that damn subject), must have a logical conclusion and the result of the whole outcome should make sense on the audience's mind by the entirety of what it was presented, even if it doesn't appeal to the generic wishes and wishful thinkings; and like the writers said, they changed many stuff in R2, but the ending was planned from the beginning. Honestly, Lelouch's whole journey could only end like this.

Now, if someone could have let a random nuke fall into the place of that goddamn Viletta/Ougi wedding, with only survivors being Kallen, Milly, Rivalz, Lloyd and a couple others, that would be the ultimate best ending. Ever.

Unfortunately, they put the cart before the horse by deciding that Lelouch should die at the end before coming up with the lead-up, which instead ended up like one big chain of Diabolus ex Machina, and a whole lot of Informed Wrongness for Lelouch.

I'm planning to write a Fix Fic where Suzaku blackmails Ohgi into stepping down as Prime Minister, making Villetta his servant, and transferring custody of their child over to Kallen as ultimate payback.

Originally Posted by Xander

Ultimately, each person is free to hold their own opinions about the ending and the series as a whole. There's no such thing as one correct view.

In that sense, the whole "but fanfics did it better" card feels rather flat since they will only be "better" for those who prefer their specific interpretations and changes.

At that point, all of this turns into an endless debate where multiple assumptions, varying personal preferences and opposing expectations are being traded like stocks.

Arguing that everything is subjective devalues all opinions/interpretations.

Let's face it: Code Geass R2 was full of logical holes.

[somersault]

Originally Posted by azul120

Unfortunately, they put the cart before the horse by deciding that Lelouch should die at the end before coming up with the lead-up, which instead ended up like one big chain of Diabolus ex Machina, and a whole lot of Informed Wrongness for Lelouch.

I'm planning to write a Fix Fic where Suzaku blackmails Ohgi into stepping down as Prime Minister, making Villetta his servant, and transferring custody of their child over to Kallen as ultimate payback.
.

Well yeah, I suppose you could say the before-execution was rushed, generally the second latter of R2 felt rushed and like 'wait, what, why, when the hell was this addressed?'

But the ending felt powerful even if the lead up felt a bit short.

I'd give my house to see an OVA where Ougi and Viletta pay for all their moronic decisions throughout the show and their convenient moral codes that easy came and easy went.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by azul120

Unfortunately, they put the cart before the horse by deciding that Lelouch should die at the end before coming up with the lead-up, which instead ended up like one big chain of Diabolus ex Machina, and a whole lot of Informed Wrongness for Lelouch.

There is some Diabolus ex Machina at certain points, especially in R2, but Lelouch himself acknowledged right from the beginning of the show that many of his methods weren't morally correct even if the ends were supposed to be. This was actually shown, not just unilaterally told to the audience, in plenty of both direct and indirect ways, so speaking of a purely Informed Wrongness on his part can come dangerously close to whitewashing him.

Even if certain circumstances were initially triggered by Diabolus ex Machina, Lelouch usually still made a personal choice that affected the ensuing consequences. Britannia itself might be the greater evil, for obvious reasons, but Zero being the lesser one does not necessarily make him right from every angle. Lelouch realized this and knew that his record wasn't going to be getting any cleaner in the long run. While it wasn't Lelouch's preferred outcome, he did understand his own death was a possible price to pay in the process as a result of his sins, long before he became a broken man near the ending. In fact, that wasn't the only time he fell into despair and/or attempted to hurt or kill himself.

Schneizel manipulated the Black Knights into not even giving him a fair trial, which is understandably aggravating, but just because they fell for the half-truths or lies and underhanded tricks of someone worse does not mean Lelouch could never be considered wrong if they had, in fact, held a proper inquiry and examined his conduct in detail. The actual chain of events that led to his death wasn't perfect nor inevitable, but it can't be said that everything happened to him in a vacuum either.

Arguing that everything is subjective devalues all opinions/interpretations.

On the contrary, since I recognize that human beings of similar maturity and intelligence levels can nevertheless hold very different views about the ending. Do you?

Let's face it: Code Geass R2 was full of logical holes.

Yes, but not every complaint equals a logical hole. Especially when it comes to questions of values and ethics, which are highly subjective even in real life.

This isn't an equation where only one logically correct solution exists. Alternate interpretations are possible precisely because other forms of logic are at work.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Xander

There is some Diabolus ex Machina at certain points, especially in R2, but Lelouch himself acknowledged right from the beginning of the show that many of his methods weren't morally correct even if the ends were supposed to be. This was actually shown, not just unilaterally told to the audience, in plenty of both direct and indirect ways, so speaking of a purely Informed Wrongness on his part can come dangerously close to whitewashing him.

Even if certain circumstances were initially triggered by Diabolus ex Machina, Lelouch usually still made a personal choice that affected the ensuing consequences. Britannia itself might be the greater evil, for obvious reasons, but Zero being the lesser one does not necessarily make him right from every angle. Lelouch realized this and knew that his record wasn't going to be getting any cleaner in the long run. While it wasn't Lelouch's preferred outcome, he did understand his own death was a possible price to pay in the process as a result of his sins, long before he became a broken man near the ending. In fact, that wasn't the only time he fell into despair and/or attempted to hurt or kill himself.

Schneizel manipulated the Black Knights into not even giving him a fair trial, which is understandably aggravating, but just because they fell for the half-truths or lies and underhanded tricks of someone worse does not mean Lelouch could never be considered wrong if they had, in fact, held a proper inquiry and examined his conduct in detail. The actual chain of events that led to his death wasn't perfect nor inevitable, but it can't be said that everything happened to him in a vacuum either.

I never said Lelouch was perfect. While he acknowledged he was doing a lot of damage, he also suffered a disproportionate case of blowback. Not to mention that his so called atonement-by-death plan actually caused MORE damage than his rebellion did, and the latter at least compensated by helping other nations to the point they now had their own governing body in the UFN by Turn 16. Had he only been able to continue along that same path, he could atone by living on as a protector of justice post-war.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that his so called atonement-by-death plan actually caused MORE damage than his rebellion did.

That's why it's a (self-)destructive form of atonement, which was part of what he was going for, if you recall Lelouch essentially said to Suzaku he wanted to be remembered as being worse than Euphemia the Massacre Princess. If he kept his reputation intact and kept the damage low, at the level of Zero the Ally of Justice, he'd always come out looking better than her in the history books.

Of course, I'd personally prefer a much more constructive and positive plan of action myself and I won't deny Lelouch deserved a better fate than the one that was quite forcefully imposed upon him, which is also the one which he willingly chose to embrace in the end.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Xander

That's why it's a (self-)destructive form of atonement, which was part of what he was going for, if you recall Lelouch essentially said to Suzaku he wanted to be remembered as being worse than Euphemia the Massacre Princess. If he kept his reputation intact and kept the damage low, at the level of Zero the Ally of Justice, he'd always come out looking better than her in the history books.

Of course, I'd personally prefer a much more constructive and positive plan of action myself and I won't deny Lelouch deserved a better fate than the one that was quite forcefully imposed upon him, which is also the one which he willingly chose to embrace in the end.

He could also help Euphie's reputation in other ways. (A royal decoy did it, perhaps?) Besides, Euphie would have rather wanted the way with less bloodshed, even if it hurt her comparatively.

One other thing is that Lelouch was mostly forced to extremities during the Rebellion because of the imposing threat the Britannian Empire posed, whereas following Charles' defeat, he actually had more options.

[wredsa]

Remember the zero requiem did not involve all the bloodshed that are implied. Lelouch just advertised doing a lot of evil so that he may be hated but he actually did not do any real harm on the way to zero requiem.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by wredsa

Remember the zero requiem did not involve all the bloodshed that are implied. Lelouch just advertised doing a lot of evil so that he may be hated but he actually did not do any real harm on the way to zero requiem.

Nothing was stated to that effect. What is definitely known is that Lelouch had families executed for speaking out against him (C. C. states this in the second to last picture drama); he geassed his soldiers into complete obedience, made them wear masks, and treated them as expendables; and he detonated Mt. Fuji, likely eliminating most of the world's major energy supplies, and causing a ton of destruction throughout Japan.

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by azul120

Nothing was stated to that effect. What is definitely known is that Lelouch had families executed for speaking out against him (C. C. states this in the second to last picture drama); he geassed his soldiers into complete obedience, made them wear masks, and treated them as expendables; and he detonated Mt. Fuji, likely eliminating most of the world's major energy supplies, and causing a ton of destruction throughout Japan.

CC only tells Lelouch is atoning for using geass, not killing civilians. Britannia were using those same soldiers as expandables too, except they could now give their lives for attaining peace. Also Fuji blast did not drain as much energy to render a world wide shortage.