[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Levani]

People actually solved Shkannon by the time of EP5's release, at least the Japanese fanbase did.

[haguruma]

I'm still replying because I am too stubborn to just make it appear to you as if everyone had given in to your opinion...

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

From my perspective it looked that while everyone here has been playing "Ryukishi said that in interview", I suddenly come in and demand we play "Solve the mystery with facts which are contained in it"

The thing you don't seem to understand is, there is no "facts" to what you are claiming...that is what the whole of Umineko is about. All of these stories are fiction, even the horrible nature of all the character (while true to a degree) is an embelishment on the part of the author within the fiction. What you don't seem to get is, that Umineko isn't a classical mystery, it is an anti-mystery. It comes down to the conclusion that there isn't always rhyme and reason to crime, sometimes the solution is simply people making horrible choices.

This has nothing to do with Rokkenjima as these murders are obviously planned in advance and are not sudden and unplanned.

You said you'd accept both the manga and the Red Truth, right?

Spoiler for The Book of One Truth:

Ange: What happened on that day on Rokkenjima...
Eva's diary: I write this down in order to forget.
No. It might be that I want to write this down in order not to forget.
Ah, the reason might as well be anything.
If I do not vomit out everything that happened on that day, I feel like I might just loose it.




......

Ange: I have...seen this...before somewhere
Bern: I thought I told you often enough that there was no GM!


THIS IS ALL TRUTH

This is the truth of Rokkenjima, as found in Eva's diary and as even you have to admit, in Eva's diary, the Book of One Truth, the truth of Rokkenjima, concerning October 4th and 5th 1986 is written down.
There is no intricate truth behind the truth, just a sad person imagining themrself able to commit the perfect crime spectacle in order to turn life around and miserably dragging all those loved AND hated down to hell along with themself.

By profit I don't mean money. I mean anything that murderer gains after the murder.
What does Yasu gain after the murder? Nothing. Therefore she has no motive for murder.

If you don't understand Yasu's motive on a logical level...be our guest and don't. It is not supposed to be logical, even Ryûkishi has finally taken some measure with the manga and admitted that she acted illogical and foolish. That is the tragedy.

By Prime do you mean 3rd game? Didn't she kill all of the servants + George + Nanjo even according to Shkannontrists?

No, Prime describes the real world, outside the stories, and the only glimpse we get of it is through Ange's future, Eva's diary, cracks in the narrative and the Confession.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

From my perspective it looked that while everyone here has been playing "Ryukishi said that in interview", I suddenly come in and demand we play "Solve the mystery with facts which are contained in it"

Boy, you're sure on an ego trip right now, aren't you? Alright then, show us your splendid and almighty truth of truths that only you, Ryukishi's chosen one, could have found!

How is it fair when the only way you can solve it is by asking author in an interview?

It isn't fair. Luckily, that's not the case, as the majority of readers (You not included, you special, special person,) had already figured it out before EP7. However, before you bring up the "One in a Thousand," because that's referring to those that understand the truth. There's a difference between knowing and understanding.

I'll show it to you with an analogy.
Let's say that you are presented with a puzzle:
Alice has 5 apples, she gives 2 apples to Bob. How many apples is Alice left with?
Let's say that after deducing that Alice is left with 3 apples you open the last page of the puzzle book where all the answers are written, but there you see that Alice is left with 7 apples. After being confused for awhile you conclude that either your reasoning is wrong or the answer that is given is wrong. Not being able to contact the author of this puzzle you decide to at least visit a forum where this puzzle book is discussed. But what you see there is that everybody believes that 7 is the right answer. And when you present your reasoning that Alice is left with 3 apples, instead of arguing about your reasoning you get answers like:
"But author said in an interview that Alice is left with 7 apples, that must be the right answer."
"You don't even believe that Alice was left with 7 apples. What keeps you from doubting author even further? Maybe he lied with the whole setup of this puzzle? Maybe he lied about Alice having 5 apples? Maybe he lied about her giving 2 apples to Bob? Maybe it was Bob who gave her 2 apples? That way it all makes sense"

See, that is a nice analogy, only it doesn't work here. At all. Episodes 1-4 all contain a huge number of hints towards Shannon and Kanon being one and the same, all the way to the first episode. (Gohda refers to Shannon, Kanon, and Kumasawa as "You girls...") Not only that, but the motive was forshadowed since their very introduction. (Kanon's "If only I could..." while gazing forlornly at Battler, for example.) Shannon and Kanon doesn't contradict any of the rules of the games, you only think it does. Allow me to counter with my own analogy:
In your math class, your teacher gives you a sheet of simple word problems. One of the questions on the sheet goes like so: "Alice has three apples, and Bob gives her two." You see this, and immediately raise your hand to give out the answer, which you say is 3. The class laughs hysterically at you, but you don't know why. The class reveals that the answer is, in fact, 7. But you declare this to be a lie. Why? Because you claim that Bob's apples that are being given to Alice are special, negative apples. The class is bewildered, but you keep going anyway. Eventually, the class tries to point out that the answer in the back of the book is 7, but you claim that the number in the back of the book is a Red Herring. Nobody understands what you're going on about, and eventually the Teacher outright tells you you're wrong, but you claim the Teacher isn't part of the question, and therefore has no relevance to the answer.

Because murder of other humans, especially premediated one is an unnatural activity for humans.
That's why to perform it, it must be outweighted by some personal gain.
By profit I don't mean money. I mean anything that murderer gains after the murder.
What does Yasu gain after the murder? Nothing. Therefore she has no motive for murder.

I don't know why it hasn't been mentioned already, maybe it's not a well-known theory, but I had thought that Yasu's murder party was created with the intention of being solved by one of the ones she loved, which is why her accomplices always indicate the servants, sometimes even specifically Shannon or Kanon, when talking to Battler.

This has nothing to do with Rokkenjima as these murders are obviously planned in advance and are not sudden and unplanned.

You're right! That scene totally has no point! I'm sure Ryukishi's just a writer who puts scenes in as Red Herrings to distract people, because that really is good storytelling!

Yasu is not central core-story. Yasu has only appeared at the very end of the story. There is no Yasu anywhere in episodes 1-6.

Really? Are you bad at paying attention, or just willfully ignoring all the clues? Like, say, the entirety of Episode 2 and it's focus on the relationship between Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice?

She didn't even know anything from this list for majority of her life.
I know that such revelations can be a bit shocking but nothing life-changing.
e.g. a millionere losing all of his money may be tempted to commit suicide, but someone who was poor for all life and learns that one of lottery tickets he bought one day and lost, was actually a million winning ticket, won't be upset that much. Because after all, nothing really changed for him.

Nothing life changing? Really, finding out that everyone you've ever loved is related to you and that your entire perception of gender is a lie wouldn't upset you? It completely ruins everything Yasu ever wanted! She'll never become a mother, and will never bear children.

Here is where bullshit-o-meter hits the roof. I remember someone here argued that Yasu doesn't have identity disorder. How the fuck is this possible then?

Here's where my bullshit-o-meter hits the roof! Do you not know what MPD is? It's not that this isn't possible if she didn't have Multiple Personality Disorder, it's that it's only possible if she doesn't! People with MPD don't just create identities, it's something they have no control over. Yasu, on the other hand, creates different characters to act as. Instead of just being overtaken by Kanon, she makes an active decision to become him.

Nothing.of.the.sort. No one trapped her anywhere.
Especially with all that gold she can go wherever she wants. She can make a proper gender-changing operation.

You seem to be forgetting a whole slew of things. Okay, let's say she wants to leave and get an operation. Her first problem that she runs into is the money. In order to use it, she'd have to reveal her identity to the family. So, how would they react? Likely terribly! Remember, all the adults are in dire straits right now, and need money badly. Remember how they reacted when Beatrice first came to the island? They decided she was probably a secret heir coming to take the gold, and vowed not to let her have it. I may misquote, but I succinctly remember Eva declaring "Like we'd let some hussy just barge in here and take the gold!" Not only that, but it would require revealing her heritage to her cousins. Jessica, her best friend, would have to relinquish her status as heir to the head, and though she never really wanted the headship to begin with, Natsuhi and Krauss would be mortified. And both George and Battler, who had crushes on her, would find that the girl of their dreams was also their cousin. Not only that, but the Ushiromiyas very easily could deny her the fortune, since she was born in secret on the island with no birth certificate, or any proof of her heritage at all.

Now, if somehow, she was able to reveal her heritage and become the head with everyone else in the family's permission, the next step, getting a gender-change surgery? In conservative 1986 Japan? Good luck. And, if she managed to find someone to do it, it still wouldn't be the same. Part of Yasu's trauma was expecting and expecting to start becoming a young woman, and then she never did. Even with a transplant, she wouldn't menstruate, wouldn't be able to have children, wouldn't grow into a more feminine body, and, in the end, how different is that from how she is now? Even if she did that, in a way, it wouldn't be any different than what Nanjo did to her body.

Not one person knows who you are.

It's more nuanced than that. Shannon wants George to ask her about how she feels about starting a family in the future. He doesn't. Instead, he goes on and on about all the children she'll be popping out, never asking her how she feels on the matter. Kanon wants Jessica to ask him what Furniture even means, and why it means she cannot be with him. She doesn't. She assumes that it means his stature, and goes on this assumption even though Kanon tries his hardest to make it clear that it's something else. Beatrice just wants Battler to return, to realize that, even now, she is still waiting. He doesn't. He actually almost entirely forgets about her.

Saved her from what? When Battler gave that promise, portrait's epitaph didn't even exist at that time. So she couldn't know anything about all of this. And she already worked 4 years on Rokkenjima, which is 1 year more than you need to get enough money to leave.

She has nothing to show who she is. She'd never have another job. She'd be totally and completely broke, because she'd be leaving the gold behind. Not only that, but she's never known any other life than Rokkenjima, and is shown to be totally careless and clumsy, and I doubt she'd be able to take care of herself.

By Prime do you mean 3rd game? Didn't she kill all of the servants + George + Nanjo even according to Shkannontrists?

Not at all. Prime is the real world, and Episode 3 is still fiction. In fact, Episode 3 actually contradicts reality on several points- Battler dying, for example.

Hmm. Your analogy made me think. Wouldn't goats rip the heart from the cat aswell? In other words being a goat has nothing to do with intestines or heart, but has to do with ripping them from the dead cat.

Uh..? Your point?

Your point would be valid if Ryukishi's official solution didn't crumble under criticism. Seriously the fact that people need to resort to "Ryukishi said so in interview" to explain so many things is already telling that something is wrong with it.

But there's nothing wrong with it? All of your contradictions have rebuttals and solutions, it's only that you, and specifically you, do not like them. Nobody but you and the Rosatricers find them to be contradictions.

See my puzzle analogy above.
Also please show me where there is red text in the confession.

You're just showing that jjblue1 was totally correct in his assessment. The Confession is entirely Red, however, you don't believe it's true, and are therefore ignoring it. You can come up with excuses, but that doesn't make jjblue1's assertion any less 100% true.

Why do people keep claiming that I rely only on red?
And it's not like Shkannontrice doesn't ignore any white text. For example according to Shkannontrists golden brooch incident has never happened in reality. And so did Beatrice's visit to Maria in her home.

Because, even if things didn't happen in reality, they are still of the utmost thematic, symbolic, and characteristic importance. For example, the Golden Brooch scenario is some of the biggest hints towards the culprit and their motive, and more or less symbolizes Yasu's entire dynamic. Also, Beatrice's visit to Maria was a dream sequence, I thought that was obvious. I mean, it happens, and then Maria literally wakes up, and references it. I don't think it can get any more obvious that it didn't happen. (And before you say that this assessment makes it unimportant, the scene demonstrates the duality of Maria's perception of the world, and shows how twisted her dreams of magic have become.)

Erm. Didn't you believe in Shkannontrice? If yes, then don't you understand that your explanation here denies Shkannontrice?

It does no such thing.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

The line in Japanese is
" ゲームは、私が客室に入ったところで終わってしまったのだから、私は、自分で閉めたチェーンロックを、開け てさえいない。だから、私が退出した後に、私に続いて脱出、というのは通用しない。"

And in English,
"The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room."

That all seems to refer to the game at hand, so personally I don't see how the game could not have ended at that point.

Aha thank yout for this.
Btw, why could she leave the room after the game ended?
I thzink the red is like 'yeah I said it but I meant actually meant something different'. Because of this I don't really believe that Erika comitted murder on Rokkenjima.
Erika said she couldn't make used of the detective's proclamation but in the end she could claim (in red) that she is the detective. I imply she was not killing the people on the island.
And Van Dine's 6th: there must be a detective.

[GoldenLand]

There is something I've been confused about for a while, so I'd be curious to find out what people's views are on this topic. How would you describe the structure of the meta world?

Clearly there are fragments representing worlds/stories, and voyaging witches who can free themselves of their fragments and move between them...And there is furniture which is simply a character who exists when they're being used. Game masters who own their fragments as authors, and readers who, er, read and interpret those fragments for onlookers. Goats who represent the analysis of certain types of reader.

What I tend to get tripped up on most is things like the City of Books, the Senate, and the Great Court of Heaven. Well, I suppose the City of Books is straightforward enough as a library. But the senate of witches who supervise it...? Just readers and onlookers?

The Court of Heaven puzzles me the most. The existence of "repentance enforcement agencies" such as Eiserne Jungrau and the SSVD is reasonably plain, as each of those wields various mystery interpretation and solving rules which only apply to mysteries. Although Dlanor says at one point that it is only meant to be a helpful tool, Eiserne Jungfrau definitely goes around performing heresy interrogations, executions (the solving of mysteries?) and apparently also redemptions (although I have no idea what those would be). But is the only business of the Court of Heaven the solving of mysteries?

Plausibly, the Court of Heaven could be in the business of literary criticism and interpretation for different genres, but it's hard to say. Dlanor talks about things in terms of heresy and god.

On a different topic, looking at the manga pages Haguruma quoted above reminds me that I've never been very happy with the Rudolf and Kyrie main culprit theory, but there's really not anything that can be done to deny it. I'm not as dissatisfied with it as I used to be, mind. My main objection to it is that the plan is very risky: yes, right, you and your family are the only people who survived the island, and now have piles of money, oh and by the way doesn't one of you have yakuza connections?

But, that is partly explained by Beatrice revealing the bomb and providing loaded guns (!!!) to people, because it gives a way to erase the evidence so that even if they are suspected, it will be hard to pin the crime on them. And that makes it a crime of opportunity rather than one Kyrie and Rudolf set out to do...but even so, it's hard to believe that they would jump straight into that anyway. Which is in turn explained by the way that they weren't the first people to start shooting and killing. They must have decided that if people were going crazy with shooting, they might as well win and take the money.

...It's still a stretch in some ways, given that they would have to murder not only the siblings and spouses but all of the servants and all of the kids except Battler. And there would be SO much risk of Battler telling on them later. I really wonder if Kyrie had any idea at the time that Battler was really her own kid. If she didn't know, and if Battler had to be murdered on the island in order to keep things silent, Rudolf would never ever be able to tell her the truth, that's for certain.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Erm. Didn't you believe in Shkannontrice? If yes, then don't you understand that your explanation here denies Shkannontrice?

It doesn't. Can you explain why you think it does?

Aside from that, I am curious. Your theory is apparently that Kanon existed as a corpse in the room, but that red clearly shows that that is impossible. Do you have another solution for how it is that Kanon does not exist in the room even as a corpse and yet never left the room?

Originally Posted by Mali

Aha thank yout for this.
Btw, why could she leave the room after the game ended?
I thzink the red is like 'yeah I said it but I meant actually meant something different'. Because of this I don't really believe that Erika comitted murder on Rokkenjima.
Erika said she couldn't make used of the detective's proclamation but in the end she could claim (in red) that she is the detective. I imply she was not killing the people on the island.
And Van Dine's 6th: there must be a detective.

I think Erika couldn't leave the room after the game ended because time on the gameboard stopped then. If the game had continued, naturally she could have left there at some point, but it didn't. As if a game of Cluedo had been abandoned while Professor Plum was in the Study, the story just stopped.

I can't think of any way for Erika to not have killed those people; there are multiple reds saying she did it. If there's a way of getting around them I'll be impressed.

Personally, I don't believe that the Van Dine rules apply to Umineko at all. But if there had been a detective in ep 6, I wonder who it would have been? It couldn't be Erika, since she committed the murders. (Unless there is a way of getting around that, but I can't see any leeway there at all.)

The only thing I can think of for how Erika was able to say "Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!" is that it refers not to Erika's status as the detective of that gameboard but to Erika's actual occupation as a detective. She's still Erika the detective, but she's not Erika the detective who is also the official detective of the ep 6 gameboard.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Because murder of other humans, especially premediated one is an unnatural activity for humans.
That's why to perform it, it must be outweighted by some personal gain.
By profit I don't mean money. I mean anything that murderer gains after the murder.
What does Yasu gain after the murder? Nothing. Therefore she has no motive for murder.

That's only the case if the murders are the means to the end.

You have to keep in mind that Yasu wasn't planning on coming out of the situation alive one way or the other. She would either die in misery via the bomb, or be discovered by someone figuring out the truth. Really, according to Yasu's plan, actual murders didn't have to happen at all--which is why Battler can get away with a fake murder game as his premise in EP6--she chose to murder for a lot of complicated reasons. Resentment, feeling as though these people were past redemption, to lessen the possibility of betrayal from her conspirators, to motivate those that were left to treat this as more than just a logical puzzle, and because she didn't want those she did love to continue life disgusted by her when she was gone.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I think Erika couldn't leave the room after the game ended because time on the gameboard stopped then. If the game had continued, naturally she could have left there at some point, but it didn't. As if a game of Cluedo had been abandoned while Professor Plum was in the Study, the story just stopped.

I can't think of any way for Erika to not have killed those people; there are multiple reds saying she did it. If there's a way of getting around them I'll be impressed.

Personally, I don't believe that the Van Dine rules apply to Umineko at all. But if there had been a detective in ep 6, I wonder who it would have been? It couldn't be Erika, since she committed the murders. (Unless there is a way of getting around that, but I can't see any leeway there at all.)

The only thing I can think of for how Erika was able to say "Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!" is that it refers not to Erika's status as the detective of that gameboard but to Erika's actual occupation as a detective. She's still Erika the detective, but she's not Erika the detective who is also the official detective of the ep 6 gameboard.

There were no detective proclamation for Battler (or exception clause) and yet Dlanor stated he was the detective in 1-4.
I guess there are several ways for Erika to say something like killing people.
Hint:
Natsuhi confessed murder in EP5 but Virgillia said she isn't the culprit (for the 5th game)so Erika could have killed 5 people before she came to the island where she became the detective with the status of a killer. It's possible she killed roses (this doesn't refer to the people) and cut their heads.
So why couldn't Dlanor say in red that 'X is dead'?
Ánd: There's is no rule for Erika to use duct tape to tie up Kyrie and co.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

There were no detective proclamation for Battler (or exception clause) and yet Dlanor stated he was the detective in 1-4.
I guess there are several ways for Erika to say something like killing people.

Erika was set up as the detective in EP6 as well, but she refused to place the detective proclamation on her character because it would be a sour victory (and well, because of the plan that Bern and she had behind the scenes), she actively handed the detective proclamation over and "abdicated", so to say, for the time being.
Battler was the detective as a part of Beato's setup, it wasn't himself who prepared his piece in such a way, it was Beato who basically showed him a game she prepared...which is true since they are games that are already written by Yasu alone. The fight with Erika was more of an active discussion and I can see it being backlash from Witch Hunters (maybe even Ikuko) concerning the actual attempt by Tohya to write Dawn.
Why is it that on the plain of our world Ikuko wants Ange to read Dawn and see what she thinks of it? This already foreshadows that this is not her work, but might actually be Tohya's plot by which he decided to hide the truth...and Ikuko doesn't like it.

[jjblue1]

Tentative theory about Dawn here.
Erika abdicated the role of the detective to take the one of murderer.
Shannon is in the closet. Erika finds her and kills her. Battler, who's in hiding, takes up the role of the detective. Regardless of how the game goes (aka: Erika managing to kill everyone or not) the bomb explodes just the same but, by allowing Battler to escape Shannon saved his life and she's the heroine of the game. Sort of.

Alternative theory N°2:
Same as before but with Shannon as the detective. As she's killed by Erika the game ends.

Alternative theory N°3:
Actually Erika isn't the culprit she just made up her culprit theory the same way as Battler did in Ep 5. The real culprit is Yasu again who, before moving Battler out of that room, killed everyone playing victim. As Shannon was hiding in the closet, Erika got in the room, opened the door and Shannon killed her. Then went on with her plan with Battler as the detective.

Alternative theory N°4:
Same as before only Erika was actually the detective and the fact she didn't make the detective proclamation didn't remove her form that role, merely stopped her from having certain advantages. As Erika, the detective, is killed, the game end.

Anyone has other theories?

[Y Ddraig Goch]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I always considered that it was in a way also mirroring the real events behind the Beatrice's. At the end of EP5 Beato is shown to have been driven to the brink of despair by Battler's ineptitude and her own powerlessness to protect the Ushiromiya's, she can't even believe Battler's promise anymore. Her last act of saving him could mirror the real Yasu's act of getting Battler of the island but not surviving herself.
She revives him by making him understand everything, which is probably the event of Tohya reading her confession. In this moment "Battler" is revived in him, but the only thing that remains of Beato is dust and a broken butterfly husk (reminiscent of the brooch). He vows to avenge her and the only thing that remains is his new Beatrice...who I kinda also saw as mirroring Ikuko, since she was working with him and married him.


Beatrice's funeral never happened. It's a fictional account created by Bernkastel in order to present the truth to Featherine in a manner that also entertains her. Since there is no surface-fight over the inheritance among the siblings in this world, there was probably no need to bring Battler along for Rudolph and Kyrie. It is just a what-if world with occasional hick-ups due to still being connected to Beatrice's tale, which shouldn't exist in this world, since the Beatrice of 1967 was the last Beatrice.
Battler would still split from the Ushiromiya's because of Rudolph's behaviour, Ange (not Angie btw) would still be sick on that day, but several other events that lead to the constelation of 1986 would have no reason to occur. It's only with Bern's deus-ex-machina event that Kinzô STILL offered them the epitaph that things went into the direction of everyone being killed again. In that sense Battler's absence in this tale is quite telling, since he can't be killed on the island.

I kind of see EP7 as an attempt by Ikuko to piece together the truth by herself without Tôya's help, it kind of gives a second layer to the whole framing that was done at the end of EP6 and with her behaviour in EP8.


Like other people already said, she didn't know.
This part (to me) was an extension on Rosa's logic in EP2, you can only ever trust a corpse 'cause it can't lie. Erika took this a step further by saying that you can only trust the corpses of those you killed yourself, since people can be playing dead (which they were). She was mainly just eliminating possible "culprits".

Wait, she saved him at the end of EP5? How?

On the point of Beatrice's funeral, while the one with the Ushiromiya's attending is fictional, the one that happened with Virgilia and Meta Battler was real, right?

Also (forgive me if this sounds dumb), why did she create a piece for the purpose of loving Battler and being loved back?

I tend to look at EP1-5 Beatrice and EP6-8 Beato as selves who experienced different ends (bad end and good end respectively).

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

Wait, she saved him at the end of EP5? How?

Okay, safe is a strong word, but do you remember the scene in the Tea Party after Battler has been impaled on Dlanor's sword? Beato comes to him and rests her head on his chest. This is not the Beato of the EP5 gameboard, who was eaten by the goats, but clearly the same Beato who also sits in the Golden Land as a silent doll. When Battler has remembered and comes to, Beato turns to dust and leaves only the husk of a broken butterfly...especially in the manga it is emphasized that this becomes the source of power for Battler to break free of his defeat.

This also gives an interesting dimension to Tohya, as Meta-Battler apologizes to Ange that he cannot give up on the game just yet because there are people like Erika toying with it and his loved ones...which is quite exactly what happened in Ange's world.

On the point of Beatrice's funeral, while the one with the Ushiromiya's attending is fictional, the one that happened with Virgilia and Meta Battler was real, right?

More or less...as much as the meta-scenes are "real". For me it is more symbolic of Battler/Tohya laying his memory of Beato to rest under the impression that he has given her a peaceful ending.

Also (forgive me if this sounds dumb), why did she create a piece for the purpose of loving Battler and being loved back?

Well, Beatrice existed in many different forms but was always an escapism for Yasu. When it seemed like Battler would never return to Rokkenjima and might have even forgotten about her, she creates this idea of the ideal woman who can wait eternally for Battler, while she herself is excused from having to keep true to these emotions.
It's a little bit like saying "my 16 year old self loved him, but my 19 year old self is a completely new person, so don't need to feel guilty for moving on". She needed this kind of ritual as a trigger for her to allow herself to move on.

The problem is exactly that this DOESN'T make the feelings go away, it's exactly that she ISN'T two or three different people. She's basically just denying the emotions for Battler that she never made peace with and puts new emotions on top of them...but under the believe that her "magic rituals" will make it alright.
That is also why Shannon, Kanon and Beato are not a "full human", because the "complete person" denies all of them this right by refusing to decide on one of these paths.

I tend to look at EP1-5 Beatrice and EP6-8 Beato as selves who experienced different ends (bad end and good end respectively).

As said in EP6: That Beatrice will never again be ressurected.
The concept of EP6-8 Beato is still very similar to that of EP1-5 Beato, but they are still different in the end...it is technically only possible for her to exist as a mixed entity due to the catbox.
It's similar to a character being revived in a long running series after the directors have changed. Of course they still fullfil the same narrative function and will resemble each other...maybe even fool us into thinking that they are the same, but in the end they are different because their creators are different.

[Mali]

Maybe piece-Battler had an 'Aha'- moment in Ep 5 + 6 like Ange had had with Sakutaro. Who knows?

Anyone has other theories?

Well I cannot really tell because the others denied them. It's really stupid to say but I don't buy Erikas logic there.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
She (Erika) does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Dlanor stated that the sin is Pride. Uh hello? Because Battlers sin is pride many people die on the island!
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

There are several questions for that game:

Erika prepared 'easy to rip off'-seals before she got permission to seal 3 rooms. Anyone can go in Erikas room and steal them. (For example, George and Jessica)

Who died? Asumu's Battler or Kyrie's Battler?

What was that noise the cousins heard?

The victims did not die by any method other than HOMICIDE. So one Battler died anyway?

Is the time Battler was rescued included in the time Erika entered the room to the time of the logic error?

Why didn't Erika mentioned the names of those she killed? She could killed one Battler, or?

Why was Beatrice Erika using personal pronouns for refering Erika?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

Dlanor stated that the sin is Pride. Uh hello? Because Battlers sin is pride many people die on the island!

Your point being what exactly? It doesn't really become clear.

Erika prepared 'easy to rip off'-seals before she got permission to seal 3 rooms. Anyone can go in Erikas room and steal them. (For example, George and Jessica)

But is there any indication that anybody DID steal the seals? As you said yourself, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Why would George or Jessica steal the seals and what would they do with them? Adding more seals doesn't really undo the seals placed by Erika already?

Who died? Asumu's Battler or Kyrie's Battler?

Asumu's original child (who was supposed to be named Battler) died in childbirth, of course he is dead. The only Battler appearing in the game is Kyrie's son, who only ended up named Battler because he was given to Asumu...so you can't really mix that child into the equation.

What was that noise the cousins heard?

Could you be a little more specific what moment you are refering to?

The victims did not die by any method other than HOMICIDE. So one Battler died anyway?

Is it ever said that Battler actually died in EP6?

Is the time Battler was rescued included in the time Erika entered the room to the time of the logic error?

When the game ended Battler was officially gone from the guestroom, so yes, it ended after Battler being rescued.

Why didn't Erika mentioned the names of those she killed? She could killed one Battler, or?

Well, it was established before that Ushiromiya Kyrie cannot save Battler! Ushiromiya Natsuhi cannot save Battler! Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler! It's useless! Even Rosa or Maria cannot save Battler!
She also says: All of the 5 people I killed were perfectly alive until the moment I killed them.
It's pretty easy to assume from context that she was talking about those 5 people. Of course you can make assumptions that she could be talking about somebody else, but, since none of the other people are dead (especially not 5) and 5 people outside the island being killed wouldn't influence these 5s ability to save Battler, it's pretty obvious that it was these 5.

Why was Beatrice Erika using personal pronouns for refering Erika?

In what instance?

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Please show us where it says that

Right here.

You can create whatever sort of tale you like to satisfy your grudge. I am not interested.

Featherine doesn't care about what kind of story she gets to read, but she still wants the answers, the questions Why, Who and How are always central to a mystery and changing those is like changing an equation. What you are basically saying is that EP7 is a lie and therefore unnecessary to the mystery story.
Van Dine 16. Nothing should be depicted in a story that exceeds the necessary. (EP8 Manga Vol.4)

Umineko was always a mix of mystery and fantasy. The gameboards themselves are mysteries and meta-world is fantasy. Yasu's confession happens in the meta-world witch theater, and not on the gameboard, therefore this red is ineffective here. Reds never apply to the meta-world.

You are moving the goalposts here. An accomplice is an assistant who helps the culprit orchestrate certain scenes, convince non-accomplices of something. An accomplice is NOT an independent murderer. As soon as you say that 3 people committed individual murders, with their individual goals in mind, then you cannot say that there is one true culprit.

Where are you taking these definitions from? Things like culprit and accomplice have never been explicitly defined in Umineko except for purple minigame in Ep.8, which doesn't influence other gameboards. An accomplice may be someone who doesn't kill, but it could also be someone who kills.

Eva's and Hideyoshi's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are watched over by Natsuhi and Battler in the parlour.
Kanon's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler and Natsuhi after checking the crime scene.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler and Natsuhi in the study.
Natsuhi's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler in the parlour.

Rosa is not dead
The red which you presented does not confirm death status. It only confirms identities of those who are known to be dead, not the other way around.
Battler didn't investigate Rosa's body, he doesn't even mention if she has any wounds.

Nanjo's murder in EP3:
Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon are dead before Nanjo was killed!
Neither Jessica, nor Battler, nor Eva were the culprit who murdered Nanjo!
Nanjo was murdered!

I didn't yet figure this out, but I want to hear you opinion on this.
Considering how Shkannontrice solution doesn't respect red death proclamations, what exactly prevents me from declaring that someone of those people, for example George, was not dead as human, but rather dead as a personality, and it was his other personality that killed Nanjo?

It is not mentioned otherwise, therefore there is no reason to doubt its applicability.

There is a reason to doubt it if that can solve some mystery.

Even more, it would be breaking the game if her status was changed without mentioning that it would be.

Why exactly?

What you mean would be "He was together with Jessica in Jessica's room when he died", but the sentence reads "He died together with Jessica in Jessica's room". It is と共に死んだ not　と共にいて、死んだ.

No, what I mean is something like
"The old man died with his family".
It can be interpreted both ways, that he died and his family died at the same time, or that he died while his family was near him.

So, when it is convenient for you then body and name can be seperated?

When real death is involved then it's nothing unusual.
Let's recall our solutions. They are actually very similar, and only differ in one detail.
In both of them Kanon comes into the room in some body, switches with Battler in the closet, and then somehow dissappears from the guestroom, while the body in which he came remains in the closet. In your variant that happens because Yasu turns off his Kanon personality, while in my variant it happens because he is shot with a gun through the closet's door after Erika deduces that the only place where Battler can hide is the closet. But notice how my variant answers both how and why it happened, while your variant only answers how. Why exactly did Yasu turn off Kanon at that exact time?

In this setting she was a servant until she found the gold and succeeded Kinzo, she simply upheld the facade of nothing having changed. Going by your logic, the Queen of England would stop being the Queen of England if she pretended to be a commoner.

Servant and head are not exclusive titles. Being one doesn't prevent you from being the other. If she works for Natsuhi and Krauss, she is their servant.

EP1 contains, conversations about the fact that Shannon is not her true name and that Kanon's name is also false.

And it also mentions that all other servants from fukuin house use fake names too.
There is some evidence in the game that supports Shannon=Kanon, but there is no evidence that a 3rd personality exists.

It is mentioned that Beatrice is "the ruler of Rokkenjima during the night". Natsuhi and others mention the rumor of Kinzo having a secret lovechild with his mistress. Natsuhi's last words to the culprit are "I would have never imagined that something like you truly existed..."

But there is no link which connects this secret child to Yasu.

Well, apart from Ryukishi officially revealing the solution to that one way back in 2011 already:

That's the exact solution I was talking about. It contradicts both Knox's 8th and Will's solution.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's still an idiosyncrasy of Maria's worldview, and the fact that no one asks Maria 'who did the Beatrice who gave you the letter look like?' is still a valid point.

And yet Maria understood what they wanted and told them that Beatrice looks just like on portrait.

You're cherrypicking. Right before the line you bolded, she says, "I didn't know anyone who spoke that way."

This doesn't contradict my point.
She first tried to identify the speech but after failing to do that, she looked at her, and that's when she realized that she can't recognize her at all.

Maria concluded that this was a new person based on the way they were speaking; she never even mentions their appearance or visual attributes or anything.

There is no reason to believe that Maria had that habit before she met with Beatrice.

It's pretty much for the same reasons she pursues love with Jessica and George, plus a little extra stuff. Maria never challenges her on everything, indulges her, and together they can create a safe pretend land where no one hurts the other one. Their friendship is a coping mechanism for the both of them for their issues (which also sort of aggravates their problems and causes a bit of a folie a deux).

How does your version explain this strange deal between them:

......As long as you keep my little promise, I will greet you the next time you come to this island."

"Uu-! I'll keep it. What's the promise?!"

"Well, to start... When you get home, wash your hands. Then, rinse out your mouth. You must not complain about this, for it is an important part of a witch apprentice's training."

"I'll do it! Every day, when I come home, I'll wash my hands! I'll rinse out my mouth! If I do that, will I see you again?!"

"I promise it. If you keep your end of the promise, your body will be cleansed, and I will regain even more of my magical power. ......If that happens, then I will show you magic that is even more incredible the next time you come."

"Uu-! I'll keep my promise! No matter what!! I'll do it! I'll become your friend and a witch apprentice!"

Please explain why Rosa would get completely irate, abusive, upset, angry, or unreasonable just about every time Maria brings up Beatrice. Please explain why Rosa considers all her witch-talk 'creepy' and doesn't understand why she's still indulging in magic fantasy-play at her age. Please explain how Rosa, who is utterly traumatized at the mere mention of Beatrice due to her childhood incident, would pretend to be Beatrice for extended periods of time.

You can't, because this is stupid, and completely ignores Rosa's characterization. That Beatrice functions as a 'good mother' to Maria is part of why Rosa feels threatened by her, in addition to other things.

I can. You throw this word "characterization" around like it means something. But according to your own Shkannontrist views Shannon's and Kanon's characterization doesn't mean anything, because that's only an illusion that Yasu acts out. The only thing we know about the characters is how they act in front of others. Rosa is embarassed that her daughter is mentally impaired, and gets angry when she can't hide it from others.

'was keeping everyone in the fucking parlor at gunpoint'. Also, pfft, yea, like Natsuhi is letting Jessica out of her line of sight for anything.

She wasn't keeping anyone at gunpoint. Gun was for defence from external enemies. She didn't suspect anyone at that point in time. And Battler got from parlor to kitchen alone just fine.

It does according to Ryukishi's interviews and the mangas. If they are a [red]corpse[/red], they are a dead body. If their identities are guaranteed, the corpse is that person, for sure. Therefore, by seeing Rosa's corpse with no unidentifiable face, the red is saying that Rosa is 100% confirmed dead by the red. That's how this particular red is meant to be interpretted according to the author.

You got it completely wrong. I answered it already for haguruma above.

Sure it is, and yes he does. Moved corpses don't leave blood trails, for example, or do anything else that would leave an actual clue. He only describes blood for the sake of the grotesque imagery, not for realism. (Lol, Ryukishi describing gore realistically)

And where is your proof of that?

Genji is depicted with having an exceptionally large skillset of tasks he can perform in both normal scenes and fantasy ones, especially ones that seem to derive from his time as a war refugee.

Also, you know, if someone can use knowledge of cake decorating to disguse themselves as foliage to hide from troops, like what happened IRL in Vietnam...

Okay. Let's look at it from a different angle. Even if he can disguise bodies, our point of discussion was if Eva was thinking that it was a game or not. For her to think that it as a game she needed to be there in the shed and observe how her relatives gather there, lie down and then Genji disguises them.

Even if we concede that Shkannontrice doesn't make sense, that could just as easily because of Ryukishi's shortcomings as a reader rather than HURR HURR DOUBLE-TRICKED YOU.

I don't deny that as a posiibility, but I won't accept that before I thoroughly explore other posiibilities.

Erm...no. That's now how Golden Truth is defined at all; it's much more personal, and stands regardless of what other people seem to think: See, Ange's golden truth in EP8 (It's not typed out in the font color but the prose describes it as such, explicitly).

Golden Truth seems to effectively be 'headcanon'.

Golden truth is not even defined. It's one of the puzzles to figure out what it actually is.
I have a theory about it.
The three witches are all tied to colored text.
Lambdadelta is the witch of certainty, and she is red. Red truth represents certainty. Something that is known to be true.
Bernkastel is the witch of possibility, and she is blue. Blue truth represents possibility. Something that may be true, but not neccesarily.
Beatrice is the golden witch, and so the golden truth must represent the same thing that Beatrice herself represents.
And what is it that Beatrice represents? I think it is illusion or deception.

Now you're just being difficult and contrarian. There is a difference between something covered up by cloth and something layered in blood and you know it. No matter how bloody Jessica's face is, her eyes mightv'e been left open, or the shape of the face might match, etc. etc.

All of that might be or might not be. As long as there is nothing that explicitly contradicts my theory, it is possible. I remember that detectives authority allows one to confirm death status when investigating, but does it say anything about the identity of the body? Battler has observed both Shannon's and Kanon's faces but couldn't figure out that it's the same face.

But Shannon's breasts follow all proper visual cues, apparently, and demonstrating their falseness requires touching them, according to the prose.

According to what prose? Did I miss something?

It's in the text. When Erika gives up her Detective's Authority, she loses her ability to tell if a body is 100% dead, and the TIPS even change to reflect that. The detective cannot misjudge the living or dead status of a corpse, it's how their rights are defined in Beato's game. And EP5 confirms that in every other episode, Battler was the detective and all that implied.

Yes. But it was never about observation, but about investigation. Simple glance at something from distance won't confirm anything.

He still checked, by his own narration; especially since he actually entertained the idea that Jessica might've held a conversation with that wound for like a half-minute.

Okay. But just because he checked wound doesn't change anything. It's not like I'm arguing that wound is fake.

You're the one arguing that he definitely didn't, and Haguruma demonstrated that isn't the case.

I'm not arguing that he definitely didn't. Possibility is not enough to deny something, but its more than enough to propose something.

Except Jessica likes Kanon

Except she doesn't like him anymore after he rejected her and trampled her brooch.

and Rosa isn't on the island when most of Beatrice's nightly pranks occur.

Do you have information on when exactly all of Beatrice's pranks occur, and when exactly Rosa is on the island to make such assertion?

You'd think people would notice that shenanigans only happen when Rosa comes over to spend the night; it stretches belief even worse than Shannon doing it. Atleast she's there all the time.

My point was that she was the one who started doing them long time ago when she lived on Rokkenjima, not the one who did all of them.

Nah. Case in point, Will and Ange themselves, who both symbolize sympathetic, intelligent readers who either A) Have an actual reason to be invested or B) are respectful enough not to treat it like a toy.

It's funny that you mentioned Will here, because he is not interested in this story at all, and admits that he wouldn't be solving it if not forced by Bern.

It was both; Battler's win condition was to demonstrate that he understood Beato's gameboard. Erika's win condition was to demonstrate otherwise. The Logic Error technically satisfies her win condition but with a few added benefits; however in either case, proving or disproving the Logic Error required exposing a part of Beato's heart, by Battler's own admission.

That's what it looked like. But it doesn't make any sense if you think about it. Why would Battler need to prove that he understands Beato's gameboard? He already proved that by becoming the territory lord. But on the other hand he wanted to revive Beatrice. And that's exactly why he accepted this game. And he knew from the beginning that there was no logic error, it was all a setup to revive Beatrice.

Then arguing with you is worthless. You don't care about what the author had to say in a narrative built around understanding the emotions and intentions of an author.

Lol. Didn't know that authors were such delicate creatures.

Well, yes, but it was Beatrice who actually did the dealing blow, by exploiting Shkananigans (TM).

Well, Shkananigans are not actually required to solve that logic error.

Well, that and he out and out said that a red/blue battle isn't what she (Clair, who represents Yasu's true will and final regrets) truly wants.

Except that Clair might be Bern's puppet, who creates an illusion of Yasu.

Genji's in on it, and he's the guy in charge of the servant roster and staff.

Genji is not their boss, nor is he the one who pays their salaries.

1) Beatrice has nothing to gain, this is stated in red. She's not AIMING to gain anything.

Factual error. Beatrice has nothing to gain from relatives solving epitaph.

2) Beatrice, both Meta-Beatrice ans Yasu-as-Beatrice, clearly want to be stopped. Either from Battler remembering, or from somebody killing them, or both.

They clearly want to be stopped....with astronomically low probability. That's not what I would call clearly wants to be stopped.

3) EP5 and EP6 both strongly imply that atleast the first twilight is faked, or that adult accomplices are lead to believe it's faked for gaining their cooperation. This is seconded by "Our Confession"

I don't understand your point here.

4) Yasu's defining character traits are that she hates herself and feels incapable of finding happiness on her own terms. It's not really ABOUT being stuck on the island; she stays there because she wants Battler to make good on her promise, because it would mean (in her mind) that someone values her as herself underneath all her masks, and that she can have happiness.

Isn't there a contradiction here? Battler gave his promise to Shannon, not to Yasu.
He doesn't even know who the fuck is Yasu.

Her issue isn't that she feels trapped as such, so much as she feels displaced. The life and family and even body she was meant to have are all denied for her, and so she feels that any life she can make for herself would be basically a lie. So she either wants to wipe everything away so she can close everything up and be remembered for a happy lie, or she wants someone to take her out of everything and make a life WITH her, which atleast would be 'true' for that other person.

Essentially, this is what the furniture complex means. She doesn't see herself as a 'true' human who is deserving or capable of creating a life for herself due to her emotional issues and her life circumstances, which Genji basically arranged for her to make her a prop in Kinzo's redemption arc. She is constantly forced to bottle up her own feelings and wants and desires to play parts for other people, either as Shannon, as Kanon, as Beatrice, whoever.

So she doesn't feel like the protagonist of her own life. And yes, this is in large part due to her own actions, but she sees everything having been effectively set in stone when Natsuhi threw her away, if not before then due to being an incest rape-baby. Yasu is disgusted with herself, her origins, this family, her life, and pretty much all her possible futures. In the manga, she even compares herself to Kinzo because all her romantic options are incestuous.

So, yea. Yasu basically snapped and wants someone to love her, validate her, and make a life with her, and she wants them to reach out and do all this without her having to ask for it or it doesn't mean anything to her. So the murders are one, final, desperate cry for help, and if no one stops her, then...

If no one stops her, maybe no one every really loved the real her anyway. She might as well disappear and take everyone complicit in her pain with her. That's how she thinks.

What you are describing here is a motive for suicide. It's not a motive for mass murder though.

Literally the majority of Umineko was spent building up this character and defining her mindset and the rules it creates in her worldview, and this is continued in symbolic subtext such as the comparisons with Maria, Ange, and through her three avatars and faces.

Yasu was always present in Umineko, and so were her thoughts and beliefs. It's just muddled in so much fantasy that you need to clear it up one layer at a time and understand why the author is making these characters say and do these things.

Erm, no. Yasu wasn't anywhere in the story for the first 6 episodes.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I think you got it wrong. It's not because 'the interviews said so' that people came to the solution.
They figured out then they got to the end of the book and checked with interviews, with the manga, with whatever.
ShKannon was suspected way before Ep 7 of the VN version.
Interviews are used only to confirm theories not to pull out theories out of thin air.
And I know you probably won't feel like checking all the messages posted but those theories were posted in this board also, way before interviews and manga.

I understand that Shkannon was suspected back then, but it was nowhere near completely solved.

So it's not like in your example, where the solution handed from the book is obviously wrong because the question was really clear cut.
It's more like many figured out that the solution had to be 7, checked it was 7 and not that you're telling them, no, it has to be 3 they're answering you: "Sweety, there's no discussion, EVEN the textbook says it's 7, deal with it."

If the solution was as obvious like the in your example (5-2) and 7 was obviously an answer to whom nobody with normal math knowledge could arrive no one prior to Ep 7 would have suspected ShKannon and everyone would have been a supporter of your theory who mysteriously changed his/her mind when the solution came out.

I understand that my analogy isn't perfect because Umineko is obviously harder than 5-2.

You claim Ryukishi's solution crumbles under your criticism but you can't present a more persuasive solution and I love parallel solutions.

Then I find it very odd that you didn't argue any specifics of my theory at all.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I'm still replying because I am too stubborn to just make it appear to you as if everyone had given in to your opinion...

No need to be embarassed about it.

The thing you don't seem to understand is, there is no "facts" to what you are claiming...that is what the whole of Umineko is about. All of these stories are fiction, even the horrible nature of all the character (while true to a degree) is an embelishment on the part of the author within the fiction. What you don't seem to get is, that Umineko isn't a classical mystery, it is an anti-mystery. It comes down to the conclusion that there isn't always rhyme and reason to crime, sometimes the solution is simply people making horrible choices.

Did we really read the same Umineko? Because I don't remember reading anything like that. Umineko may not be the classiest of mysteries, but it's still a solvable mystery. All of these stories are fiction. So what? All mysteries are fiction, lol. That doesn't change anything even if they are fiction inside fiction. They are still mysteries, and they were solved by Battler by using Knox decalogue.

You said you'd accept both the manga and the Red Truth, right?

Spoiler for The Book of One Truth:

Ange: What happened on that day on Rokkenjima...
Eva's diary: I write this down in order to forget.
No. It might be that I want to write this down in order not to forget.
Ah, the reason might as well be anything.
If I do not vomit out everything that happened on that day, I feel like I might just loose it.




......

Ange: I have...seen this...before somewhere
Bern: I thought I told you often enough that there was no GM!


THIS IS ALL TRUTH

This is the truth of Rokkenjima, as found in Eva's diary and as even you have to admit, in Eva's diary, the Book of One Truth, the truth of Rokkenjima, concerning October 4th and 5th 1986 is written down.
There is no intricate truth behind the truth, just a sad person imagining themrself able to commit the perfect crime spectacle in order to turn life around and miserably dragging all those loved AND hated down to hell along with themself.

I have a problem with it, though. The same scene was present in VN in Ep.7.
Bern said in red that "this is all truth", but she was interrupted by Ange's scream.
And later in Ep.8 she revealed that was she was going to say was "this is all truth of sorts but not neccessary the truth".

If you don't understand Yasu's motive on a logical level...be our guest and don't. It is not supposed to be logical, even Ryûkishi has finally taken some measure with the manga and admitted that she acted illogical and foolish. That is the tragedy.

But this is a problem. Because deducing something is done with logic. And if her motive isn't logical then it can't be deduced. And if it can't be deduced, then the game isn't fair.

[Mali]

These are only my thougts. Please show me if I'm wrong about them.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Your point being what exactly? It doesn't really become clear.

Apperently people die because Battler has a sin. Actually the culprit must be driven by Battler's sin. Besides his sin against 'Yasu' couldn't Battler commited a (the same) sin against Erika?

Originally Posted by haguruma

But is there any indication that anybody DID steal the seals? As you said yourself, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Why would George or Jessica steal the seals and what would they do with them? Adding more seals doesn't really undo the seals placed by Erika already?

Ok stealing is not the right way to say it haha.
There are some instances for George and Jessica to possibly take something away like Maria's rose because they knew where the rose was.
After both of them reported that Battler and Maria were gone Erika left the room alone leaving them behind in her room.
Dlanor hadn't the red key so it was possible to reseal the 'next room over' and the guest room. The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end so I think no seals were removed nor were reaseled.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Asumu's original child (who was supposed to be named Battler) died in childbirth, of course he is dead. The only Battler appearing in the game is Kyrie's son, who only ended up named Battler because he was given to Asumu...so you can't really mix that child into the equation.

It's Devil's Proof. The Battlers may be playing 'Das doppelte Lottchen' all along haha.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Could you be a little more specific what moment you are refering to?

It's before the cousins, Shannon and Erika went to the main hall and spoke about the portrait. In the hallway with the guest rooms
Erika asked:"...Did you hear something just now?"
George:"I think I heard it too. It sounded like a clunk....."

Originally Posted by haguruma

Is it ever said that Battler actually died in EP6?

No but if he died then by homicide. The Game Results shows that.

Originally Posted by haguruma

In what instance?

I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.

I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.

Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.


I find it strange that Battler refers his piece by name and Erika refers her piece as herself. And Dlanor likes to speak about Erika by her name. she completely severed the heads of all those she killed. It may be coincedence.^^
But then I had the idea that 2 Battlers can exist that time if I accept Shkannon. Meta-Erika could controlled 2 pieces: Furudo Erika and Erika-Battler(culprit).

[haguruma]

The most important point first, since this one really irritates me, the point of "Yasu".

Erm, no. Yasu wasn't anywhere in the story for the first 6 episodes

If it's just the name you have a problem with, we can change that. "Yasu" is a nickname based on the culprits full name, Yasuda Sayo. Sayo was introduced to us in EP1. To make you feel better, we could just start talking about Sayo from now on.

But there is no link which connects this secret child to Yasu.

But it was mentioned and considering how special Sayo is set up as...
Sayo has been employed by the family for longer than normal (EP1), Sayo is used to not using her real name (EP1), Sayo has left her fate to destiny (EP1), Shannon and Kanon decided to use the setting of siblings even though they aren't (EP1), Shannon and Kanon are rumored to be homunculi created through Kinzo's pact with the forces of the underworld (EP1), Shannon and Kanon are less than human (EP1), Kanon will never utter his real name (EP2), Shannon has a revolting bodily flaw that will repulse George according to Beatrice (EP2)...it's ridiculous how much the artificiality of Shannon/Sayo/Kanon/?? is pushed into our faces even during the first two Episodes.

There is some evidence in the game that supports Shannon=Kanon, but there is no evidence that a 3rd personality exists.

Yes there is. Shannon and even George mention several times that she is a different person when she is Sayo.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Umineko was always a mix of mystery and fantasy. The gameboards themselves are mysteries and meta-world is fantasy. Yasu's confession happens in the meta-world witch theater, and not on the gameboard, therefore this red is ineffective here. Reds never apply to the meta-world.

You are making it too easy for yourself.
The gameboard is a mixture of mystery and fantasy as well, or do you want to imply that the individual events of EP2-4 are without fantastical elements? The meta-world on the other hand is more than just a "fantasy-realm". Since you didn't seem to get the idea of Prime, did you even consider that the whole meta-world is a metaphor for how the people post-1986 deal with the events within the catbox?

Where are you taking these definitions from?

Apart from the fact that you shouldn't rip a narrative apart like that, Umineko is based on classical orthodox mysteries and deconstructs them, it still holds true to the idea that within the fiction the work follows those rules.
A mastermind who doesn't need to kill to be considered a culprit and accomplices who kill are a matter of hard-boiled and noir fiction. Considering the gameboards are modelled after classical detective fiction, a culprit is one who murders and one who murders is a culprit.

what exactly prevents me from declaring that someone of those people, for example George, was not dead as human, but rather dead as a personality, and it was his other personality that killed Nanjo?

Nothing prevents you from it, apart from the fact that nobody but Shannon and Kanon were ever hinted to use different names than their names on the island. You could claim that it was Hideyoshi for all it's worth, but what narrative gain does that have?! The one who could be possible would be Jessica, who does have a different personality of the island, but she is blinded and out of question.

It can be interpreted both ways, that he died and his family died at the same time, or that he died while his family was near him.

In English it can, in Japanese it can't!
The game is originally written in Japanese.
Jessica AND Kanon died SIMULTANEOUSLY in Jessica's room.
Unless you can prove to me that this grammar can be used any other way, your claim is as worthwhile as saying that "high" means the same as "yellow".

Servant and head are not exclusive titles. Being one doesn't prevent you from being the other. If she works for Natsuhi and Krauss, she is their servant.

But she is not working for Natsuhi and Krauss.
It is established in EP1 that all the servants except Gohda are directly employed by the head of the Ushiromiya family, which we believe to be Kinzo in the beginning, who is only referred to as "the master of this estate" (お館様: oyakata-sama） by those servants. Only Gohda is employed by Natsuhi.
This means that Sayo is basically paying herself.

That's the exact solution I was talking about. It contradicts both Knox's 8th and Will's solution.

The stake just lies beside Shannon, not sticking in the wound: Hint for there not being anybody to insert it presented.
The room was locked: Hint for it being locked from the inside presented.
Rosa pushes Battler away from the nightstand: Hint for something being hidden presented.

Will's solution is perfectly met. This locked room is a coffin, meaning that everybody inside it is dead.

I can. You throw this word "characterization" around like it means something. But according to your own Shkannontrist views Shannon's and Kanon's characterization doesn't mean anything, because that's only an illusion that Yasu acts out.

They are neither complete illusions nor complete acting and nobody here said so. They mirror a part of Sayo's heart and soul, together they form a whole.

Except she doesn't like him anymore after he rejected her and trampled her brooch.

Except she does like him all the time as shown in EP2 (when she takes the stake for him), EP3 (where she breaks down after hearing he's dead, wants to see his corpse and finally begs for him to save her in the end), EP4 (where she names him as her most loved person) and EP6 (where she and Kanon are a part the whole freakin' trial of love).

Lol. Didn't know that authors were such delicate creatures.

You do know that from the very beginning Umineko was also about who wrote it and the question of why they wrote it?!
What I wanted to ask you too: In your theory, who wrote the message bottles? Why did they write at least 2 of them? Why did they sign the message with Maria's name? How did they get all these inside informations?

Isn't there a contradiction here? Battler gave his promise to Shannon, not to Yasu.
He doesn't even know who the fuck is Yasu.

He gave his promise to Sayo. He knows perfectly well who Sayo is.

What you are describing here is a motive for suicide. It's not a motive for mass murder though.

Actually, what she is attempting and even mentioning in Confession of the Golden Witch is Shinjû. She doesn't want to die alone and she also sees it her responsibility as the family head to clear everything up before departing from this world.

They are still mysteries, and they were solved by Battler by using Knox decalogue.

No, they were solved by Battler finally realizing and remembering what the heart of Beatrice's story is about. Read the end of EP5 again, where Battler arrives at the truth.

I have a problem with it, though. The same scene was present in VN in Ep.7.
Bern said in red that "this is all truth", but she was interrupted by Ange's scream.
And later in Ep.8 she revealed that was she was going to say was "this is all truth of sorts but not neccessary the truth".

Bern says that when she said she wanted to test Ange, to tempt her into reading the book, because it adds an additional layer to the pain Ange feels when she really can't deny it anymore. There is no going around it, this is all truth, they met a person claiming to be Beatrice, Kyrie and Rudolph murdered people on the island, Eva accidentally shot Natsuhi, and so on...

But this is a problem. Because deducing something is done with logic. And if her motive isn't logical then it can't be deduced. And if it can't be deduced, then the game isn't fair.

So, according to your idea something illogical cannot be deduced? By that reasoning, no madman could ever be caught, nothing illogical could ever be depicted...well, maybe the term "beyond human reason" suits you better?! There is a certain logic to her actions, it's simply the logic of someone gone quite mad.

Originally Posted by Mali

Besides his sin against 'Yasu' couldn't Battler commited a (the same) sin against Erika?

It could be....maybe he is the boyfriend that she is talking about, maybe not...there's nothing in the narrative indicating that it is, so we can't really go anywhere with this.

Dlanor hadn't the red key so it was possible to reseal the 'next room over' and the guest room. The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end so I think no seals were removed nor were reaseled.

The escape from the window is perfectly solvable by being done by somebody from the room that had it's window unsealed. There is also no indication in the plot that anybody ever attempted to steal Erika's tape...so like above, it doesn't really go anywhere.

It's Devil's Proof. The Battlers may be playing 'Das doppelte Lottchen' all along haha.

Including Erika there are 17. That would mean that the person count on the island would have to be increased by one, or somebody besides either Shannon or Kanon is also non-existant.
That is completely ignoring the point that there must have been a dead baby during the birth since it was given to us as such...otherwise we would have been deceived with no clue that this could be the case.

[Mali]

The escape from the window is perfectly solvable by being done by somebody from the room that had it's window unsealed. There is also no indication in the plot that anybody ever attempted to steal Erika's tape...so like above, it doesn't really go anywhere.

I am aware of this. If the game is about playing a prank game on Erika why should they not steal it out for revange?
But think about this. The tape stripes can be sticked on the broken seal and somebody can remove the inperfect seal. Battler could have used this room for another closed room murder if the logic error never happened.

Edit:

It could be....maybe he is the boyfriend that she is talking about, maybe not...there's nothing in the narrative indicating that it is, so we can't really go anywhere with this.

The scene with Dlanor about speaking about her boyfriend has (grayed out) blood drops and a swing+hit sound.

[Golden Lily]

That rose had any significant purpose other than showing Maria's naming tendencies based on appearance?

Also, I finally finished the game, then I checked bits of the previous game and...I'm genuinely disgusted with George. He loved Shannon but he was clearly using his position against her, and he didn't even tried to understand her. And his whole boasting was like 'I'm more mature than you puppies*, so stay quiet and listen to me'.

*cousins

[AuraTwilight]

That rose had any significant purpose other than showing Maria's naming tendencies based on appearance?

It's also insight into her self-image and damaged identity, because she felt pity for it out of their similarities. Maria also sees herself as a rose that can't properly bloom and grow; she's way more aware of her problems than even Rosa could've imagined.

[haguruma]

It's that time of the month again.......NO NOT THAT TIME!!!
The new GanGan Joker is out and with it chapter 31 of EP8. Being kind of a lead-up chapter, I didn't expect it to be that interesting, but at least two instances had me having goosebumps. Let's see what everyone else says...even though I have to say, it works even better with the pictures.

Spoiler for Chapter 31: The End of a Brutal War:

Narration:
Within the crumbling Golden Land

Erika:
Ahahahahahahahaha
OUR?! TRUTH OF THE HEART?!
TRUTH OF THE HEART?!?!
Whatever kind of Red you spew at me!
As long as the box is closed endless imaginations will be created!
How about just ripping it wide open if you don't like that?!
That is of course if you can prove your innocence!!!

Beatrice:
Come at me, Erika!
Come and receive the honour of my final duel!

Erika:
Isn't this great?
That is what I want!

Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch
Chapter 31: The End of a Brutal War

Erika:
Ahahaha
Isn't this a great scenery?!
Don't you think it suits it just right?!
The final chapter of your story!!

Beatrice:
The Golden Land
seems at its end!
We will perish with it!
But
nobody will be able to erase the truth that existed here!!
This here is our Golden Land!
The Endless and Golden Witch Beatrice exists here!!
Even if I die it does not utter defeat...!
Ange will surely accept our truth and live towards the future!!
I am sorry Erika! We had won from the very beginning!!

Erika:
What?!
She's still alive? That little brat?
But what does it even matter?!
The heart of a human who peeks at the truth, unprepared, holding half-baked hopes
will be easily smashed
again and again
That is why truth is supreme!!
The stone-cold truth, without any compassion, is the most beautiful of all
Hearts and stuff that can't be seen with your eyes?!
Illusions?! What worth do they have?!
Farewell Witch of Illusions, Beatrice!!
Let this illusion fall into hell!!!
Your shitty endless game ends here!!!
DISAPPEAR!
YASUDA
SAYOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Bern:
Are you....still there....?
My beloved Lambdadelta....
It's a pity Lambda...
I thought of building a whole universe, just the two of us...what a pity
….
But even though...
I thought Battler would be with you, so it's fun that he's not...
I will have to gather my kitties again...
If I let just one of them live, it's like having a pebble in your walking shoe...

Ange:
Oniichan...!

Battler:
Lambdadelta has...lost...?!
Shit...
Just a little bit longer...but now it's all...

Bern:
…...
Lambda....
Live on together with me
Within me you shall become a universe of your own
….my beloved Lambda...

Lambda:
I fell the same ♥

Bern:
?!
GYYYAAAARGH
AAAAARGHHHLLLL
GAAAARGH
AAAARGH

Lambda:
Didn't you fix your behaviour from when you were a cat?
You shouldn't just eat stray candy you find on the ground
I was just considering to give this victory to you
But it won't do
If I became a universe, Bern would never whisper sweet nothings to me again

Bern:
GYYYAAAARGH
Aarghll
gurgh
You're right
I should never have thrown bait to the fish I caught already
Lamb....
DAAAAAAAAA!!
I will turn you into a cardboard box and sharpen my claws on all your sides!!

Lambda:
I will turn you into a shamisen and then get bored of you after playing one time, then stuffing you into the cupboard and leaving you to collect dust!!!

Ange:
What is...

Battler:
Enemy backup...?

Featherine:
My miko...
hasn't the time for the key come by now...?

Bern:
Auaurora...
….is it time already?

Featherine:
It is part of good hospitality to always be prepared for more guests
But I don't take to it much
It has been a while, Lady Lambdadelta...

Lambda:
I offer my greetings...Great Lady Aurora...

Featherine:
To welcome you here just doesn't seem right...
Have you lost your way to the event hall?
If so
let me myself guide you to the party

Lambda:
Whawhawha...
What an honor...Great Lady Aurora...
Featherine Augustus Aurora...
The legendary Great Witch
She is on the level of a Creator within the world of the witches, a witch who has arrived in domains forbidden to touch
She ones died of the illness of boredom that kills witches, but with the help of the witch she keeps as a cat, Bern, she was reborn...so
Just like we witches look down on humans from a higher sphere and ridicule them as mere pieces, she laughs at and looks down upon even the realm of us witches from an even higher world...!!
A witch returned to life from the kingdom of gods....!!
I can “certainly” not win...

Featherine:
My miko, can you leave your quarrel with your friend for later and take care of the key?

Bern:
…
Of course
Lambda, this is game-set

Lambda:
…...
The seal on the key is not yet broken...
If I let Bern go
then Battler...and Ange...will...
…...

Bern:
Let's make a deal

Lambda:
Whu?!

Bern:
Where is Battler?
If you tell us everything, then it's all water under the bridge and you can go!

Lambda:
You, the Witch of Miracles, is afraid of one single human like Battler?

Bern:
It is all because I am the Witch of Miracles
I can't make light of the fact that a small pebble like him may cause a miracle
I ask once more, where is Battler?
Hey, Lambda
Because you hate boredom so much
You only wanted to play around a little with me and stir things up, right?!
It's so funny that you became attached to Battler in the process!
It's a pity Lambda
If that's all you have to say

Ange:
Oniichan, Bernkastel is coming...

Battler:
Shi...

Lambda:
Ahaha
ah
haha
Aaah, I really messed up this time
Battler...Ange...the rest you'll have to do alone

Featherine:
I am a little bewildered
Lady Lambdadelta
What is your intent in this?

Lambda:
Ahahaha, Featherine, you must be drunk
You need a pick-me-up?

Featherine:
The Witch of Recitation is under the protection of the Witch of Theatergoing
An attack against my miko is but an attack against myself...
I can understand it no other way...

Lambda:
I know
According to the rules
I will have to fight against you after all

Featherine:
If I or my miko would have acted rude towards your miko, I would surely apologize...
But you do not entertain a miko at this point, right?

Lambda:
Yes, I do
A whole lot!
I will have to take care of all the fighting pushed unto all the miko of Lambdadelta!
As the Witch of Certainty
I cannot abandon those who fight on believing in a certain Happy End!!!

Featherine:
Your tale has some worth to be seen as well...but as of now I am not a spectator but a participator
Dear friend of my miko, I will advice you just once to step down from this stage
I will prepare a special spectator-seat just for you

Lambda:
…....hah!
Battler's tale is a hundredfold more exciting than yours!!
I am sorry, but this year's price for supporting actress goes to me!

Featherine:
Very well, Lady Lambdadelta
If you have your scrip in order, then have at me

Lambda:
A script is a piece of cake
With just one attack...

Bern:
Foolish Lambda
I never thought you that stupid

Lambda:
“This bewildering cutie, Lambdadelta...
I have to aim for one point
her one and only weakpoint
the hoove-shaped memory-device on her head!
…will defeat the evil mastermind Auaurora in one hit“!!
If I can just impact it enough to shake her existence
I have a chance of one in a hundred million.....!!!

Featherine:
No need for the cats to interfere
For the heroic tale that Lady Lambdadelta is presenting to me
I have chosen a suitingly heroic story and ending to present upon you myself

Lambda:
FEATHERINE AUGUSTUS AURORAAAAAA!!!

Featherine:
I am sorry
but I will not adopt your script
because I am the one writing the script from here on out
Well then...

Script:
“Featherine Augustus Auroraaaa!!!” screamed Lambdadelta while gathering her own magic in a ball.

Featherine:
What a mess...it's been a while since I wrote a battle scene
But it would be quite troublesome if I handed over my pen at this development all of a sudden...
Whenever I get stuck while writing, I return to what I've written so far
If you go about details by details, then inserting foreshadowing becomes easier as well

Script:
Lambdadelta...
Lambdadelta rushed at Featherine, screaming her lungs out.
She was blown away, crushed against the bookshelves, and all her limbs scattered on the impact
Dead she plummeted into the darkness and vanished

Featherine:
...hmm
This should be an ending befitting your heroic act
Well then, now I will have to write an intense battle that leads up to this kind of ending
but as even you have deduced, I am slightly drunk right now
That part I will leave for another day and write down with care

Lambda:
….
...ah....?
gah...??
Wha...t...
this...
wha...happ...
How...
did I....
get killed....
now...

Featherine:
My my, Lady Lambdadelta
I haven't decided on that yet
Do tell if you have a good idea

Lambda:
You...are...
a...monster...

Featherine:
Monster
That is just one of the words with which to praise me

Narration:
Lambda...dies.