[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

what i got from the article, is that he said you have to trust her. no where did he claim red truth was actually the truth. he pretty much said everything is unverifiable. unless im misinterpreting this.

It's in the bit regarding what Ronove says. He talks about the red truth.

Basically in the first bit Ryukishi agreed that yes, everything is unverifiable but if you don't believe you can't solve the mystery (=if you completely reject the red truth then everything goes.... you've no basis for theorizing, if you don't try to solve the mystery with the info you have but keep on waiting for more info then you'll never solve it and so on).

Beatrice challenges us to solve her mystery. With her rude words she's basically telling us to give it a try as it made it solvable and subtly she's also telling us to discharge the idea of X (=unknown people, element, trap, weapon, whatever).

Ronove tackles directly the red truth. The red truth is true, we should trust Beatrice in this regard and use it to solve the mystery... but we shouldn't trust her blindly.

Originally Posted by Mali

I wonder why Ange was daydreaming? I could say I'm your opinion if Ange was not daydreaming.
And I clearly refered to the daydream, not Erika, as her conscience. Why?
Ange should have reasons and Erika might be a concept like Beatrice. Why that? Because she knew she would dissapoint her brother. Proof and hints?
Look at his face after she told her first thought about Beatrice's quiz. The first thought is mostly the right decision.
In my opinion I found it strange to be highly ironic in that scene.

I'm sorry, can you phraise it a little more clearly please?
I feel bad for asking but I'm really having troubles following your logic.
And I don't get how can you say that the first thought is the right decision.
In the puzzle George and Jessica gave Ange it was proved the first thought wasn't the right decision twice.

Originally Posted by Mali

I wouldn't defend this but ...Cpt. Kawabata knew that Ange was in danger and only he and the former deceased servants... just saying.
The trick ending leaves us a open ending. Ange murdered two people, it doesn't mean she became 'black', I'd call her an anti-hero.

In order to be a anti-hero all you've to do is to be a protagonist who has the opposite of most of the traditional attributes of a hero. They may be bewildered, ineffectual, deluded, or merely apathetic. More often an antihero is just an amoral misfit.
This doesn't stop Ange from becoming 'black Ange' or whatever we want to call her.
If we see Black Battler as the main character of Forgery XXX (or of the Ougon arcade with him and Kanon) he's an anti-hero as well as a psychopath murderer.

The problem here is: it's all right to kill a person if you suspect he/she has ill intention toward you? Without real proof? Without trying to go for an alternate solution?
After Ep 8 Ange didn't become a better person in the trick ending. Ange becomes a person who, should she suspect of you, will kill you without real proof you were betraying her.

Originally Posted by Mali

→first quote
Then she shouldn't have a daydream. Then she would throw everything else (reuniting with her brother and family) away. You go against the story (isn't the same style of thinking of Rosatricers and Jessicatricers? )

Again I've to ask you to explain yourself more clearly.
I've summarized what she did in Ep 4. It's not even a theory. How this becomes going against the story?

Originally Posted by Mali

Ange and EVA-Beatrice served her as well.
Beato made the statement "without love etc. ...." in EP6.
In EP8 even the villians changed their habits and thinking as well.

How the fact that Ange and EVA-BEATRICE serving Bern proves that Erika gained love?
Ange and EVA-BEATRICE served Bern for completely different purposes. It wasn't for their private enjoyment or in order to hurt others like Erika did. It's even possible to speculate that EVA-BEATRICE accepted to serve Bern because her aim was actually to help Ange (which she did many times during Ep 8).
But still EVA-BEATRICE is not Erika and her motivations are completely different.

Originally Posted by Mali

It's hard to decide if she was heart cold as you said or anything else...Maybe because it's Ryukishi's work? If I compare it to the other (fictive and real) murders I would say she is worse.

She killed two people in cold blood, without hesitation, without proof they were out for her blood, without regret. She took enjoyment in Amakusa's expression before she killed him. She had no hesitation whatsoever in taking two lives nor she regretted having taken them or worried for the ones who would miss them.
She could care less.
She's cold hearted.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by marianx

what i got from the article, is that he said you have to trust her. no where did he claim red truth was actually the truth. he pretty much said everything is unverifiable. unless im misinterpreting this.

You are; the Red Truth is absolutely true, but that has no value unless you trust her and her intentions, otherwise you get Battler uselessly wailing "She's lying! She's lying with the red!" Which is not only disrespectful, but also means he can never trust any information, and cannot advance in figuring anything out because if you take that train of thought long enough, he wouldn't even be able to trust the color of his own hair.

The Red Truth is an agreed upon rule. You can't play the game without respecting the rules.

And you may skype me. I'll tell it to you privately.

[Mali]

I'm sorry, can you phraise it a little more clearly please?
I feel bad for asking but I'm really having troubles following your logic.
And I don't get how can you say that the first thought is the right decision.
In the puzzle George and Jessica gave Ange it was proved the first thought wasn't the right decision twice.

Ok I'll make it clearer:
I don't argue about whether she made the right decision or not.

I was trying to give a signal "why should she daydream before making such decision?". I think how this scene starts I'd give the dream more significance. As you know there was nothing like that in EP4.

What I'm saying about "first thought=mostly the best thought" is the same as 'intuition'. I did not say she decided her future according to instinct. It was a sign why Battler and Beato looked disappointed.

In order to be a anti-hero all you've to do is to be a protagonist who has the opposite of most of the traditional attributes of a hero. They may be bewildered, ineffectual, deluded, or merely apathetic. More often an antihero is just an amoral misfit.
This doesn't stop Ange from becoming 'black Ange' or whatever we want to call her.
If we see Black Battler as the main character of Forgery XXX (or of the Ougon arcade with him and Kanon) he's an anti-hero as well as a psychopath murderer.

The problem here is: it's all right to kill a person if you suspect he/she has ill intention toward you? Without real proof? Without trying to go for an alternate solution?
After Ep 8 Ange didn't become a better person in the trick ending. Ange becomes a person who, should she suspect of you, will kill you without real proof you were betraying her.

In terms of Umineko, yes she is an anti-hero. The border between hero/anti-hero and villian/anti-hero got so small in the story because the story let characters time to develope a new attitude. We don't give her no chance. In that way she'll remain Black-Ange. She has no reason to tell why or to regret.

I like to see Black-Battler as Asumu's Battler.

How the fact that Ange and EVA-BEATRICE serving Bern proves that Erika gained love?
Ange and EVA-BEATRICE served Bern for completely different purposes. It wasn't for their private enjoyment or in order to hurt others like Erika did. It's even possible to speculate that EVA-BEATRICE accepted to serve Bern because her aim was actually to help Ange (which she did many times during Ep 8).
But still EVA-BEATRICE is not Erika and her motivations are completely different.

Your reply

Not really. Even in the VN she's back on serving Bern and destroying the golden land as cruelly as possible to the point that even Dlanor judged her beyond redemption.

Huh? Please express yourself more clearly.
I know anyone who would serve Bern didn't mean he/she is villainous like Will.
Erika was just given the evil role, but she was even accepted as a friend by Battler. She made a good job solving 5 and 6 (though I would say Erika could EP5 better). Indeed Erika gained love.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Ok I'll make it clearer:
I don't argue about whether she made the right decision or not.

I was trying to give a signal "why should she daydream before making such decision?". I think how this scene starts I'd give the dream more significance. As you know there was nothing like that in EP4.

What I'm saying about "first thought=mostly the best thought" is the same as 'intuition'. I did not say she decided her future according to instinct. It was a sign why Battler and Beato looked disappointed.

I'm confused. In the VN Battler and Beato do not look disappointed when Ange choses through which door she wants to go.
Also, the original point of discussion was 'what an Ange who chose the trick ending would have learnt' as you said she learnt something from it but not what and I said 'What Ange 'learns' in the trick ending is to continue to act like Erika....' and you seemed to... disagree? I'm not sure and I don't really get where this is going...

Originally Posted by Mali

In terms of Umineko, yes she is an anti-hero. The border between hero/anti-hero and villian/anti-hero got so small in the story because the story let characters time to develope a new attitude. We don't give her no chance. In that way she'll remain Black-Ange.

Thenk you agree she's black Ange? And that all she learnt is to be a bad person?

Originally Posted by Mali

She has no reason to tell why or to regret.

She actually had the time to express her feelings on her own actions quite clearly and there was not a sliver of regret in what she had done at the moment.

Originally Posted by Mali

Huh? Please express yourself more clearly.

You said Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss. I said she didn't as she's shown back on being a jerk, happily hurting people to the point Dlanor got disgusted by her behaviour. At this point you said EVA and Ange served Bern too...
... and I got lost because, as I said, although EVA and Ange served Bern their situation couldn't be compared to Erika so them gaining love or not wouldn't work to prove that Erika gained love.

Originally Posted by Mali

I know anyone who would serve Bern didn't mean he/she is villainous like Will.
Erika was just given the evil role, but she was even accepted as a friend by Battler. She made a good job solving 5 and 6 (though I would say Erika could EP5 better). Indeed Erika gained love.

Erika didn't solve the episodes thanks to the fact she had love. She did it thanks to the fact she had a hint.
In Ep 8 there's not a single hint she 'gained love'. At best, she's pitiful because her lack of love is due to the traumas she received, is a way to cope with her pain.
Erika thoroughly enjoy wrecking everything and she's willingly doing it.

Let's not forget that Erika has a twisted personality regardless of the role given to her.

Even when she's pinning the culprit, she's not doing it out of the godness of her heart or for a sense of justice but because she enjoys exposing truths others want to keep hidden. In short she's not doing it because she gained love.

Battler being willing to accept her as a friend doesn't mean she's a nice person, just that he doesn't bear her any grudge. That's all about Battler being kind, not about Erika gaining love... and even Bern will comment on how Battler's kindness is his downfall.

Back to the original point... we've no proof Erika gained love in Ep 8, actually Ep 8 pointed otherwise.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I'm confused. In the VN Battler and Beato do not look disappointed when Ange choses through which door she wants to go.
Also, the original point of discussion was 'what an Ange who chose the trick ending would have learnt' as you said she learnt something from it but not what and I said 'What Ange 'learns' in the trick ending is to continue to act like Erika....' and you seemed to... disagree? I'm not sure and I don't really get where this is going...

I thought we discuss about the meaning of the manga ending.
The VN made the final ceremony very straight and everyone seemed to be ok no matter what the player choose.
In the manga her "first" answer was the trick one ... I can tell by Battler's and Beato's faces that their mood saddened, and even Eva had a suprised look.

Thenk you agree she's black Ange? And that all she learnt is to be a bad person?

"Thenk"

It's the same problem with the Black Witch: Nobody understands her.
She killed 2 people and that's it. Bad person. Sayo planned to kill the whole family. Bad person. Genius!Battler used his relatives as pawns to revive a witch. Bad person. Natsuhi killed s.o.. Bad Person.
We shouldn't use "Black" anymore to avoid confusion. For example Black-Battler was a sheep in wolf disguise. Black-Ange didn't show any sign to become "Erika". Ange and Erika have totally different temperaments.
It's up to us to solve this problem, or else she will remain evil.

She actually had the time to express her feelings on her own actions quite clearly and there was not a sliver of regret in what she had done at the moment.

Where was it shown that she was amused by Cpt. Kawabata's face?

You said Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss. I said she didn't as she's shown back on being a jerk, happily hurting people to the point Dlanor got disgusted by her behaviour. At this point you said EVA and Ange served Bern too...
... and I got lost because, as I said, although EVA and Ange served Bern their situation couldn't be compared to Erika so them gaining love or not wouldn't work to prove that Erika gained love.

I thought your string of argumentation was wrong.

Erika didn't solve the episodes thanks to the fact she had love. She did it thanks to the fact she had a hint.
In Ep 8 there's not a single hint she 'gained love'. At best, she's pitiful because her lack of love is due to the traumas she received, is a way to cope with her pain.
Erika thoroughly enjoy wrecking everything and she's willingly doing it.

Let's not forget that Erika has a twisted personality regardless of the role given to her.

Even when she's pinning the culprit, she's not doing it out of the godness of her heart or for a sense of justice but because she enjoys exposing truths others want to keep hidden. In short she's not doing it because she gained love.

Battler being willing to accept her as a friend doesn't mean she's a nice person, just that he doesn't bear her any grudge. That's all about Battler being kind, not about Erika gaining love... and even Bern will comment on how Battler's kindness is his downfall.

Back to the original point... we've no proof Erika gained love in Ep 8, actually Ep 8 pointed otherwise.

Oh I would compare Beatrice.
Yeah this hint was love!As she said herself, somebody had to be the bad guy. I don't see why love is a privilege for the good guys. Beatrice even didn't show it until EP3.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

I thought we discuss about the meaning of the manga ending. The VN made the final ceremony very straight and everyone seemed to be ok no matter what the player choose.

As you've said more than once that you hadn't read the manga I though you were talking about the VN.
Also the manga made clear that Ange chose the magic ending. There's not even a discussion if we're talking about the manga.

Originally Posted by Mali

In the manga her "first" answer was the trick one ... I can tell by Battler's and Beato's faces that their mood saddened, and even Eva had a suprised look.

Of course they look sad, they've been trying to point Ange to chose magic right from the beginning, why shouldn't they look sad? But then the scene continues. It doesn't end here, and Ange clearly choses magic because she understood what they meant with 'magic'.
Are you going to deny the rest of the scene because it's not convenient to your theory?

Originally Posted by Mali

It's the same problem with the Black Witch: Nobody understands her.

The black witch is evil Rosa I take? In short a mother who abuses her daughter? We understand Rosa was abused herself and came out as such... but how this justifies her? Her actions toward Maria are evil, cruel. Understanding that Rosa is damaged doesn't really make better what she does.

Originally Posted by Mali

She killed 2 people and that's it. Bad person. Sayo planned to kill the whole family. Bad person. Genius!Battler used his relatives as pawns to revive a witch. Bad person. Natsuhi killed s.o.. Bad Person.

Genius!Battler used a story to revive a real person. those whom you call his relatives are just characters in a story who represent his relative. And the 'witch' is not a real witch but just Sayo's soul who got amnesia. There's nothing bad in telling a story that involves real people to help an amnesiac person to get his memory back.

Killing on the other side is a crime, a crime that causes a lot of pain.
In Sayo's case it would have been a planned crime... though as she never committed it we don't know if she just told herself 'I'll do it' but then she would have come to her senses and not to it or she would have gone through it.
In short what she wanted to do was bad... but as we can't say if she would have done it or not it becomes harder to judge her.

In Natsuhi's case is a moment of insanity due to her precarious mind balance. We know Natsuhi regretted what she had done... but not enough to confess her own crime and receive punishment.
In short she did the deed, had some excuses but the worst part is that she did her best to never pay for her crime. Human? Yes. Good? No.

In Ange's case is a planned crime that she carried on and left her feeling accomplished and satisfied with herself. She's, among the people you mentioned, definitely the worst and I wouldn't wave it off saying just that 'She killed 2 people and that's it.'

Will Ange redeem herself? So far it's pure speculation as there's no proof whatsoever she'll suddently become a good person. She states she wants to keep on continuing like this. At the moment Ange is a VERY bad person.

Originally Posted by Mali

We shouldn't use "Black" anymore to avoid confusion.

It's a canon term as the embodiement of the Battler culprit theory is called 'Kuroki Battler' (=Black Battler) or B.Battler (=short for 'Black Battler') and also the evil side of Rosa is called Black Witch and Ange referred to EVA BEATRICE as such as well when she meant the Eva who abused her.

'Kuroki X' basically refers to the dark/evil version of a person.

Originally Posted by Mali

For example Black-Battler was a sheep in wolf disguise.

The only sheep in wolf disguise is the one in Ep 5... though note that in Ep 5 they do not mention black Battler, Battler just blames himself.
So it would be Battler the one who's a sheep in wolf disguise, not black Battler.

In Bern's game, in the forgeries, Black Battler is the magical representation of the culprit who killed everyone for his own satisfaction and the piece 'black Battler' embodies a merciless murder who takes pleasure in causing other people's pain.

Originally Posted by Mali

Black-Ange didn't show any sign to become "Erika". Ange and Erika have totally different temperaments.

At this point it'll be simpler to just quote:

I suppose that would have been the other outcome...for me. If I would have found meaning in simply exposing the truth itself... Before long I would degenerate into a witch who exposes the truth and would ruin myself...

The one speaking is Ange reflecting on what would have been of her had she chosen trick. Erika is 'a witch who exposes the truth'. Ange is telling us she would become like Erika. Also Erika and Ange had even prior to this something in common. Like Erika did with Natsuhi, Ange wanted to force on Eva a truth in which she was the culprit, rejecting any other possibility. In Ep 4 she understood it wasn't right but then by Ep 8 she slips again into doing it.

Originally Posted by Mali

It's up to us to solve this problem, or else she will remain evil.

The Ange of the trick ending is evil. There's no playing around this.

Originally Posted by Mali

Where was it shown that she was amused by Cpt. Kawabata's face?

Amakusa's face and she states it both in the VN and in the manga.

"That bewildered look on Amakusa's face when his scheme was exposed. That was pretty good."

And... that befuddled look on Amakusa's face when I saw through his plan that wasn't bad at all!

Enjoying this sort of things is another trait she shares with Erika

(Erika) "I...like exposing the truth." ... "I like exposing secrets, then watching those people turn pale as they wonder how I figured it out. ......That's when I know I've reached the truth, and it's a moment of ecstasy."

Note that Erika was having lot of fun watching Natsuhi's face as she exposed how Natsuhi killed everyone with Kinzo's help and even slept with him even if Natsuhi was innocent and Erika knew Kinzo was dead.

Originally Posted by Mali

I thought your string of argumentation was wrong.

I got that much but you didn't prove I was wrong, you tossed in an unrelated fact and tried to use it as a basis to tell me I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Mali

Oh I would compare Beatrice.
Yeah this hint was love!As she said herself, somebody had to be the bad guy. I don't see why love is a privilege for the good guys. Beatrice even didn't show it until EP3.

Love isn't a privilege for good guys. Even bad guys can love someone. But again, how this proves Erika GAINED love in Ep 8?
She takes sadistic pleasure in exposing the truth, in tearing apart the gameboard, in pushing Ange deep into desperation. Where's Erika's love you're talking about that she supposedly gained after being in the abyss?

[Mali]

As you've said more than once that you hadn't read the manga I though you were talking about the VN.
Also the manga made clear that Ange chose the magic ending. There's not even a discussion if we're talking about the manga.

For better understanding: I gave my opinion about the manga as I read it (#35485).
Wasn't it clear the whole time ?

Of course they look sad, they've been trying to point Ange to chose magic right from the beginning, why shouldn't they look sad? But then the scene continues. It doesn't end here, and Ange clearly choses magic because she understood what they meant with 'magic'.
Are you going to deny the rest of the scene because it's not convenient to your theory?

First question should be cleared. I would note that Ange knew both meanings of the answers* in the manga.

* Because of that I said she had conscience in the boat scene. Virgilia stated about Erika she understands magic. Thad could mean she had the other choice in her mind.

The black witch is evil Rosa I take? In short a mother who abuses her daughter? We understand Rosa was abused herself and came out as such... but how this justifies her? Her actions toward Maria are evil, cruel. Understanding that Rosa is damaged doesn't really make better what she does.

Oh that shouldn't matter whether woman I meant (Rosa, Eva or Kasumi). Yeah Rosa's violent actions aren't justified, on the other hand Maria has to grow up ( to a more or lesser extent). But many parents who receive bad parenting (and education and society) will be bad parents. Who is to blame?
In Ange's case it was Eva's protective that drove her into a problematic life.

Genius!Battler used a story to revive a real person. those whom you call his relatives are just characters in a story who represent his relative. And the 'witch' is not a real witch but just Sayo's soul who got amnesia. There's nothing bad in telling a story that involves real people to help an amnesiac person to get his memory back.

Killing on the other side is a crime, a crime that causes a lot of pain.
In Sayo's case it would have been a planned crime... though as she never committed it we don't know if she just told herself 'I'll do it' but then she would have come to her senses and not to it or she would have gone through it.
In short what she wanted to do was bad... but as we can't say if she would have done it or not it becomes harder to judge her.

In Natsuhi's case is a moment of insanity due to her precarious mind balance. We know Natsuhi regretted what she had done... but not enough to confess her own crime and receive punishment.
In short she did the deed, had some excuses but the worst part is that she did her best to never pay for her crime. Human? Yes. Good? No.

In Ange's case is a planned crime that she carried on and left her feeling accomplished and satisfied with herself. She's, among the people you mentioned, definitely the worst and I wouldn't wave it off saying just that 'She killed 2 people and that's it.'

Will Ange redeem herself? So far it's pure speculation as there's no proof whatsoever she'll suddently become a good person. She states she wants to keep on continuing like this. At the moment Ange is a VERY bad person.

1) Even if the character in the story are pieces, they still based on real person. Justified, because Battler had the same mind in EP2. Wouldn't you be a bit angry if someone used a character in his/her story based on you without asking?
Battler justified his action in EP6 because he had to solve the game himself before an outsider else could with an other popular theory.

2) In that case...wouldn't it be better if she turned the bomb off?? If I would change my mind to save people I certainly will do it. In the manga ending Battler viewed her actions as an attempt and said it was justified because of her pain.

3) /

4) I used these examples to show another view on murders. Kawabata might be better killed off quick than having a tea time with Kasumi.

It's a canon term as the embodiement of the Battler culprit theory is called 'Kuroki Battler' (=Black Battler) or B.Battler (=short for 'Black Battler') and also the evil side of Rosa is called Black Witch and Ange referred to EVA BEATRICE as such as well when she meant the Eva who abused her.

'Kuroki X' basically refers to the dark/evil version of a person.

Same term with different context. B. Battler and EVA-Beatrice were concepts to diguise the crimes and culprits. Black witches are the supposed not-so-good sides of characters.
If we used this on Ange we can suppose Ange had a really good reason to kill off an innocent.

The only sheep in wolf disguise is the one in Ep 5... though note that in Ep 5 they do not mention black Battler, Battler just blames himself.
So it would be Battler the one who's a sheep in wolf disguise, not black Battler.

In Bern's game, in the forgeries, Black Battler is the magical representation of the culprit who killed everyone for his own satisfaction and the piece 'black Battler' embodies a merciless murder who takes pleasure in causing other people's pain.

I refered to Land of the Golden Witch. Anything else would be Asumu's supposed dead Battler who can indeed be a culprit.

Bern's game had more than one solution. It seems Battler likes to ignore the red "Battler is not the culprit" to reach his goals.

The one speaking is Ange reflecting on what would have been of her had she chosen trick. Erika is 'a witch who exposes the truth'. Ange is telling us she would become like Erika. Also Erika and Ange had even prior to this something in common. Like Erika did with Natsuhi, Ange wanted to force on Eva a truth in which she was the culprit, rejecting any other possibility. In Ep 4 she understood it wasn't right but then by Ep 8 she slips again into doing it.

It doesn't matter what truth she will get. She changed her mind that the truth has no value itself (response to Erika's question), so she get nothing from it, because she "certainly" died.

The Ange of the trick ending is evil. There's no playing around this.

Yeah she can shoot the gun without powder steam at all! Jokes aside. It doesn't matter how much you turn this. Cpt. Kawabata is suspicious

Love isn't a privilege for good guys. Even bad guys can love someone. But again, how this proves Erika GAINED love in Ep 8?
She takes sadistic pleasure in exposing the truth, in tearing apart the gameboard, in pushing Ange deep into desperation. Where's Erika's love you're talking about that she supposedly gained after being in the abyss?

Counter: Where did she got the hint?
At the end of the EP6 she got some new insights of truth and she wasn't longer the witch of truth in the abyss.
She knew the concept of "seeing with love".
After all she isn't a witch, she wasn't one but a DETECTIVE.
Erika represents the the way of facts and Beatrice the way of interpretations.
Facts are naturally the enemies of hopes, isn't? I'd say Ryukishi represented this very good in EP6 and EP 8.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

For better understanding: I gave my opinion about the manga as I read it (#35485).
Wasn't it clear the whole time ?

I'm not an English speaker but I was told you use 'yet' in interrogative and negative sentences.
When you said 'I read it yet' I assumed you meant 'I didn't read it yet' and forgot to write 'didn't'.
If the misunderstanding was due to my poor English knowledge I apologize.

Originally Posted by Mali

First question should be cleared. I would note that Ange knew both meanings of the answers* in the manga.

* Because of that I said she had conscience in the boat scene. Virgilia stated about Erika she understands magic. Thad could mean she had the other choice in her mind.

Nobody said she didn't.
This doesn't answer to the first question 'why shouldn't they look sad?' as, at the beginning, it looked like Ange was going to chose trick not to the second 'Are you going to deny the rest of the scene?'

Originally Posted by Mali

Oh that shouldn't matter whether woman I meant (Rosa, Eva or Kasumi). Yeah Rosa's violent actions aren't justified, on the other hand Maria has to grow up ( to a more or lesser extent).

So what Rosa did helped her to grow up?
Neglecting her, beating her was all to help Maria to grow up?
I fear we don't share the same educational system and values then...
Also I'll say Maria is growing up as a disturbed child with no friends. That's not exactly what I'll call a successful result.

Originally Posted by Mali

But many parents who receive bad parenting (and education and society) will be bad parents. Who is to blame?

So it's okay for them to be bad parents and abuse their own children?
Again I fear we come from world with different values. In my country you aren't allowed to abuse a child because you've been abused.

Originally Posted by Mali

In Ange's case it was Eva's protective that drove her into a problematic life.

No, it was the public gossipping, the bullying she received, Eva being unable to reassure her that her parents weren't the culprits, Eva being contraddictory, Eva being suspicious as hell, Eva cracking up and becoming abusive.

(Ange) "Today, a kid in class bullied me...... He said the people on TV were saying Mom had ties to bad people. ......So, he said that Mom and Dad were the culprits, and that they probably killed everyone...... ......I asked Eva oba-san, hoping she'd say it wasn't true, but she didn't say anything......" [Ep 7]

......When Eva first adopted me, our relationship wasn't that bad at all. I asked her several times. What happened that day? Every single time she answered, it was to say that she didn't remember. But...well, she must have been flustered at the time. The very first time I asked, she answered like this:
"I can't tell you about it."
It was a slip of the tongue. She knew what had happened that day. And she left this world without telling even a bit of the truth. She sealed the truth in a cat box...and left this world, taking the key with her. There can be only one answer. She was behind everything. She got all of the family wealth to herself and became super-rich. And afterward, she lamented the fact that her beloved son would never inherit any of what she had created, ...and she cursed me. [Ep 8]

After doing that, Eva oba-san told me something. You must bear all of the glory and history of the Ushiromiya family. And in order to make you a fitting successor to bear that, the rest of your life will be dedicated to frantic studying. Sacrifice the rest of your life for the Ushiromiya family.
......That's what she said. At first, I thought she meant that literally. But I quickly realized that wasn't the case. Because even now, in Eva oba-san's eyes, the one most fitting to be successor was the late George onii-chan.
At my first meal, I had received strict instruction and questioning about table manners, and had been forced to listen to her abuse Mom and Dad as though they had been neglectful in their discipline. I had also received the same strict instructions regarding manners at my first party, and my clumsiness had been disparaged in front of everybody, forcing me to endure insults to Mom and Dad as well. After that repeated over and over, I eventually began to understand. Eva oba-san didn't really want to make me the next head.
She thought that the one who was truly fitting to be the next head was George onii-chan, ......and she couldn't forgive the fact that I was to be the next head.
So I was disparaged in front of a lot of people. I was humiliated.
And she made it known exactly how I was inferior to George onii-chan, ......surely holding a memorial service for her dead son, no, ...she must still have been mourning the fact that he was dead.
......However, that wasn't something I could endure.
I couldn't possibly live together with Eva oba-san.
......As my life was continually compared with her dead son's, I was kept like a pet.
I understood that even when I was in elementary school.
I tried to escape the Ushiromiya house and go to the house of my Grandpa on my mother's side.
However, Eva oba-san had already foreseen that.
...No, thinking back on it, she might have been luring me into escaping.
I was caught by the guards and brought back, .........and for being a coward who had smeared the Ushiromiya family crest with mud and tried to throw it away, .........in a way that makes my whole body shake and shiver just remembering it, .........I was punished.
How should I describe what Eva oba-san was like when she punished me?
In a frenzy? Gleeful?
......The anger and sadness of losing her beloved son, and well as the hatred and pain that I had stolen the inheritance from the son who should have succeeded it. And the dark pleasure at being able to let those feelings out on me. [EP 4]

That's just Eva's part. Should I also quote all the bullying she received at St. Lucia?

And Eva herself admitted she was keeping silent not just for Ange's benefit but also for her own. Eva murdered Natsuhi and Hideyoshi murdered Krauss.
She didn't have the guts to tell Ange the truth when she was alive... but let the diary around so that Ange could end up finding the truth when Eva was conveniently dead.

1) Even if the character in the story are pieces, they still based on real person. Justified, because Battler had the same mind in EP2. Wouldn't you be a bit angry if someone used a character in his/her story based on you without asking?
Battler justified his action in EP6 because he had to solve the game himself before an outsider else could with an other popular theory.

Ep 6 was created to show that he understood everything not because an outsider could solve it.
Ep 6 doesn't show Battler solving the game nor stop people from trying to solve the game with other theories.
Also if I was Battler's family in such situation he wouldn't even need to ask for my permission, I would want to help him. And we see in Ep 8 that no one complained and they're all glad for the story he woved for Ange. Also he's not having his relatives doing anything bad as they're merely playing a prank.

Why do you find this bad while you're okay with Ange killing people?

Originally Posted by Mali

2) In that case...wouldn't it be better if she turned the bomb off?? If I would change my mind to save people I certainly will do it. In the manga ending Battler viewed her actions as an attempt and said it was justified because of her pain.

She was in a rush to reach them and she only managed to save Battler out of luck, because he took a detour, otherwise she would have been too late.
Would it be smart to take time to deactivate a bomb who'll explode in around 23 hours when one needs to run saving everyone as they could be killed right now?
Would it matter to deactivate the bomb if Kyrie and Rudolf had managed to kill everyone?
Would it matter to deactivate the bomb when they could reactivate it?

Originally Posted by Mali

4) I used these examples to show another view on murders. Kawabata might be better killed off quick than having a tea time with Kasumi.

Or Ange could have gone what she did in the magic ending and not have to kill anyone.
Or she could have gone to the police with an excuse (asking for info about the case), from there use their protection to freely hire her own bodyguards since she has money to use freely, fire Amakusa, not go to Rokkenjima and play for him the role of bait.
Or point a gun on Kawabata's head and demand him to turn the boat around.
Or tie him somewhere.
Or many, many other things that didn't involve killing him in cold blood.

Originally Posted by Mali

Same term with different context. B. Battler and EVA-Beatrice were concepts to diguise the crimes and culprits. Black witches are the supposed not-so-good sides of characters.
If we used this on Ange we can suppose Ange had a really good reason to kill off an innocent.

You know, I'm really having a hard time following your reasoning.
Although B. Battler and EVA-Beatrice were also occasionally used to diguise the culprits they were, in other situation, played completely straight as in they didn't disguised anything. They were the culprit.
And they weren't necessarily used only with good reasons. B.Battler is often used for other people's amusement.

Originally Posted by Mali

I refered to Land of the Golden Witch. Anything else would be Asumu's supposed dead Battler who can indeed be a culprit.

Asumu's son died at his own birth. He never went on Rokkenjima to murder people nor were part of the cast.

Originally Posted by Mali

Bern's game had more than one solution.

No. Bern's game has only one solution.

Ryukishi said:

But for Bern’s Trial you really had to aim for one clear answer.

and also, in regard to Erika's solution:

it is foul play to use elements in your deduction that happened before the actual incident in a logic puzzle

Originally Posted by Mali

It seems Battler likes to ignore the red "Battler is not the culprit" to reach his goals.

This

".........Let me first speak with the red. Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games."

refers to Beato's 4 games as they're discussing why Beato is leaving him alive for last and if this can mean he's the culprit. This red also can't be used in the trial, same as 'Natsuhi is not the culprit' hence Battler can ignore it in Ep 5 (even if he knows who's the real murderer).

Bern never knew of this red and was therefore in no obligation of using it in her game. Of course she knows that in Beato's games the culprit was neither Battler's family nor George's family but Sayo but the same doesn't apply for her game.

Even in Ep 8 Beato says that Battler not being the culprit applied to her games but that as this was Bern's game it was okay for her to make him the culprit.

Originally Posted by Mali

It doesn't matter what truth she will get. She changed her mind that the truth has no value itself (response to Erika's question), so she get nothing from it, because she "certainly" died.

I give up on following you.

Originally Posted by Mali

Yeah she can shoot the gun without powder steam at all! Jokes aside. It doesn't matter how much you turn this. Cpt. Kawabata is suspicious.

And everyone is totally all right with killing suspicious people.

Originally Posted by Mali

Counter: Where did she got the hint?
At the end of the EP6 she got some new insights of truth and she wasn't longer the witch of truth in the abyss.
She knew the concept of "seeing with love".
After all she isn't a witch, she wasn't one but a DETECTIVE.
Erika represents the the way of facts and Beatrice the way of interpretations.
Facts are naturally the enemies of hopes, isn't? I'd say Ryukishi represented this very good in EP6 and EP 8.

A fact isn't the enemy of hope per se.

"I asked for help and no one heard" can kill my hope that someone will help me.
"I asked for help and someone heard" gives me hope that the one who heard me will come to help me.

And Erika didn't need love to solve things just with that red hint in the same way as she didn't need love to solve the trick of the cup in Ep 6.
Erika doesn't look at Beato's games with 'love' but with the longing to crush them, expose the truth Beato and Battler want to hide and hurt them.
The only thing for which she has love is the idea she could hurt them.

[Mali]

So what Rosa did helped her to grow up?
Neglecting her, beating her was all to help Maria to grow up?
I fear we don't share the same educational system and values then...
Also I'll say Maria is growing up as a disturbed child with no friends. That's not exactly what I'll call a successful result.

I was trying to say that Rosa is aware she must going to educate Maria. I never said she was doing it right. I also agreed that the violence and abusing weren't right. I was pointing out the problem about Maria. So I don't see why are you worried about my view on child education.

So it's okay for them to be bad parents and abuse their own children?
Again I fear we come from world with different values. In my country you aren't allowed to abuse a child because you've been abused.

Because problem children will grow up. This is often carried into adulthood because they learned from their parents. This is one example, unemployment, illness, alcohol/drugs or divorce may be a trigger.

Should I also quote all the bullying she received at St. Lucia?

Yes please.

Ep 6 was created to show that he understood everything not because an outsider could solve it.
Ep 6 doesn't show Battler solving the game nor stop people from trying to solve the game with other theories.
Also if I was Battler's family in such situation he wouldn't even need to ask for my permission, I would want to help him. And we see in Ep 8 that no one complained and they're all glad for the story he woved for Ange. Also he's not having his relatives doing anything bad as they're merely playing a prank.

Why do you find this bad while you're okay with Ange killing people?

Yes EP6 is just a manuscript. But what about 3-5?
This is a hard question... I would support, but I don't want to release stories about dead relatives.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

I was trying to say that Rosa is aware she must going to educate Maria. I never said she was doing it right. I also agreed that the violence and abusing weren't right. I was pointing out the problem about Maria. So I don't see why are you worried about my view on child education.

The fact you started, all of sudden, pointing out the problems about Maria (problems that Rosa had likely caused) when we were talking about the problems about Rosa's behaviour gave the impression that Rosa was excused in doing what she did because 'she had to educate Maria'.

Originally Posted by Mali

Because problem children will grow up. This is often carried into adulthood because they learned from their parents. This is one example, unemployment, illness, alcohol/drugs or divorce may be a trigger.

Sure they did but this won't allow them to be abusive with others.
We know Rosa was abused during her childhood and that her behaviour is likely due to it. As pitiful as her situation is, this doesn't allow her to abuse Maria.

Originally Posted by Mali

Yes please.

Spoiler for Ep 4: Ange's bullying Under spoiler cut because there are really LOTS of scenes...:

Realize how cruel and lonely the world I'm isolated in is...
"Good day to you."
".........G, ...good day to you."
'Good day to you' is the standard greeting used here.
No matter how many years pass by, this style of greeting still feels very awkward...
Even though I had responded to the greeting in order to stifle that awkward feeling, the classmate who had spoken looked at me blankly.
"......Huh? *giggle*giggle*giggle*"
"Hu-h, what's that? It seems you're mistaken, *giggle*giggle*..."
Their choice of words and manner were certainly what you would expect of a school for rich girls, but the actual meaning was as innocent and cruel as you would expect from kids of that age.
......It seems they found it funny that I'd mistakenly thought the greeting was directed at me. No, it might be the opposite.
...Maybe I should say that they didn't know what to do after being greeted by an introverted kid like me.
No, judging by the gazes of my classmates, who were looking this way over their shoulders and whispering to each other, it was as though some of them considered this refreshing morning ruined.
......I was...dark. Because I was disliked.
So, trying not to get in the way of everyone's refreshing morning any more, I stooped lower and entered the classroom.

I was truly among the latter, and was confined in Saint Lucia Academy, ......forced to live my life in dreariness.
Of course, there weren't that many students like me, and you couldn't tell us apart at a glance.
However, even if one of these kids didn't talk about it, you could usually guess from their appearance.

...Because they were always hanging their heads all the time, with an expression on their faces as though the whole world had abandoned them.
And every class had one or two kids like that, so even if they didn't speak up about it, you could guess who they were.
Therefore.

Even though I didn't confess that I was one of those kids, at some point, everyone in the class had found out......
Just like how the seriousness of an injury becomes a sign of status in a hospital room, how noble a birth one had became a sign of status here.

Those who aren't permitted to go out in public places are probably nothing more than filthy people to them.
They must think that getting involved with students like that would dirty them as well.
When a rumor sprang up about a particular student, those fastidious girls would grow cold and distant, chasing that student out of all social groups.

Thanks to that, I led a quiet school life like this, all by myself...
Well, that's only if hearing people whisper behind my back, finding my things lost or broken all the time, and having everyone pretend like they didn't know anything...can be called a quiet school life.
Even in the morning, I must be wearing a worn out expression.

"Good day to you, Ushiromiya-san. ......You seem to be in a bad mood this morning. Were you able to get enough sleep?"
"............Is there some business you have with me?"
"You're the only one who has not submitted her questionnaire for the class presentation, Ushiromiya-san. Did you forget that the deadline was yesterday?"
...I'm pretty sure I heard something about that last week.

But I'd thought that the questionnaire hadn't been passed out yet.
The details would be written there, so it should have been no problem to remember about it once they were passed out...
"......I wasn't given a questionnaire..."
"That can't be. I believe that the dormitory leader handed them out to everyone. If you lost it, all you have to do is honestly say so."
"............I lost it. I'll fill it in right now, so could you give me a paper?"

Again. ......Either someone lost my paper, or they intentionally didn't tell me about it.
But I have no way of knowing who was behind that.

In the end, treating it as though it was my own carelessness would settle everything more quickly...
"Once you've filled it out, drop it in the questionnaire box in the student council room yourself. Our class is the only one that didn't get everyone's in by yesterday."
As I hung my head at the class leader's scolding, I could hear the giggles and whispers of people watching, coming from no direction in particular...
Ushiromiya-san did it again.
It's because that person is too careless.
She isn't suitable for this school.
She has no dignity, and she has no manners either.
......Sorry girls, but I've dealt with much worse when it comes to unfair personal attacks.

After burying almost all of the fields of the questionnaire with 'nothing in particular', I folded it and put it in my pocket.

......Because if I left it in the desk, it might 'disappear' again.
During lunch break, after dropping it off at the postbox in the student council room, I finished lunch by myself, as usual, and headed behind the school building, where no one could be seen.
......Only my time by myself could protect me from the derisive laughter and gossip.

Since I was hated and didn't have a single friend, my time alone was the most kind to me.
After checking the surrounding bushes to see whether some malicious classmates were hiding and threatening my time of quiet, I finally relaxed the tension from my entire body, knowing that I had gained some true peace.
Then...I let out a sigh.
...It faltered, heavy, as though it was the first time I had breathed out today.

My old favorite place behind the vegetable garden storehouse...had been found out by my classmates and I had been teased, so this was my new lunchtime hideaway...
There was nowhere to sit behind the school building.

".........The Saint Lucia Academy dormitory. This is a stall in the shared bathroom. ......Each room has its own bathroom, so no one comes here. It's quiet, and perfect for reading books."
"In this dorm, you have to hide in a toilet stall even to read a book? Do they burn books or something?"

............
I have a two person room, so my roommate is always there.
Our relationship is gloomy and it feels like I'm always ignored.
......The atmosphere's bad, so I really can't relax there.

And, as long as I'm not there, she can go all out, call her friends and have a chatting party.
It's more convenient for them too if I don't return until just before lights out.
There's also a library, but there's a group that uses it as a meeting place who're always talking behind my back.

So I don't like to go to the library.
......During lunch, it's the bushes behind the school building.
During the night, it's the stall in the shared bathroom in the dorms.

Those are the only hideaways where I can be given peace...

When it came time for lights out, we had to change into uniform pajamas that we hated and called prison clothes, line up in the hallway, and go through the dorm leader's roll call.

......On the off-chance that someone was late, we would take collective responsibility, and all of the floormates would have to undergo a punishment called volunteer work...
As long as I avoided this, the girls would look at me coldly, but they wouldn't get in my way.

"......Huh? .........Oh-"
"Ushiromiya-san, are you listening? About the weekly duty next week, there's something I wanted to talk about."
......She's probably talking about pushing a few more chores onto me.
My roommate, who normally never even looked me in the eye, was smiling at me unpleasantly.
But it'll be easier to have the weekly duty pushed onto me alone, rather than doing it together with her.

That's a small price to pay to have her continue to ignore me non-stop...
Even so, with a completely shameless excuse, she sidestepped the issue for some reason and insisted on flipping the situation around, as though I should have come forward and done it of my own initiative.

......In an academy system where everything is based on collective responsibility, there's no tolerance for dunces.
It seemed that I was considerably below the average grade for the class.

According to those extremely intellectual girls, if I alone improved my grade, the average would rise drastically.
......They had been kind enough to show me with a graph drawn by colorful pens on a B4 sheet of drawing paper.
...Just thinking of the effort it had taken to draw that was repulsive.

But I've already spat out all of those complaints.
......I've already spat out at them with my constant and furious anger and sadness.

......In the end. I hadn't been able to make a very good grade on my test.

I had tried to memorize things in my own way, but if you could manage anything by cramming all night like that, no one would worry about tests.
"Normally, when you know the problems beforehand, you'd be able to pass easily, right? Easily!"
"It's true that we didn't go so far as to write the answers into the blanks for you. Because we had thought you'd studied at least that much."
"What the hell? Come on, are you serious? I can't believe it! They're almost all wrong, aren't they? Did you really study properly?!"
".................More or less..."
"This isn't what you call more or less, Ushiromiya-san. ......It's so horrible that it makes me dizzy, get it?"
"Oh, God. Please forgive her for getting a miserable grade on such an easy test, and making the average score for the entire class plummet...!"
"*giggle*giggle*giggle*, *cackle*cackle*cackle*, ahahahahahahaha."

"Heey, are you listening, Ushiromiya-san?!"
".................."

They were surrounding me, twittering like small birds. They were annoying, smelly.

On the outside of that circle was Mammon, a shocked expression on her face...

"This is a messed up school, just like usual. Shouldn't you be more than happy as long as your own grades are good?"

".........It's probably because of that collective responsibility thing. Instead of worrying about their own grades, they're more concerned about how embarrassing it is for the class average to be low. Or maybe it's because they really hate the volunteer work they're forced to do as punishment."

"So in other words, they aren't studying because they want their grades to be good, but because of collective responsibility and since they hate volunteer work?"
"......They're jealous and embarrassed. They don't want to be inferior than anyone, and they don't want to be humiliated. That's the only feeling that drives them to study."

"What noisy people. If they want to study, why can't they just do it themselves?"
"In the end, without collective responsibility and volunteer work, they'd have no desire to study. ......How foolish it is to study without knowing the meaning of studying."

"Still, these guys are so annoying and stupid! Don't disturb Ange-sama's precious day for a minute!"

"Waaah, hate those gu-ys!! Just go awa-y!!"
"I'm hungryyyyyy!! Disappear noooooow, waaaah!!"
".....................Sorry, everyone. I wonder why humans are so shameful."
"It's probably because, instead of working hard themselves, it's easier to make you work hard and earn them a higher class average to satisfy their greed. ......Humans are all greedy. And they'll burden others with that to make things easier for themselves.
...We'll eventually be reunited with them on the mountain of Purgatory. When they get to fifth terrace, they better watch their step..."
Mammon controls the fifth terrace of the mountain that reaches to heaven, Mount Purgatory.

......Since she's saying this, you can probably be sure that after those girls die, their journey to heaven will not be an easy one.

...No, on the contrary, why don't they just fall into hell.
♫
The class committee went to the student council and applied to use a classroom during lunch and after school.
The purpose of use was for a class study group.
A wonderful little gathering so that they could all surround me and make me study. I'm so grateful I could cry.

Which meant that every day, all of my lunch and three hours of my afternoon would be stolen.
The academy and its student council, with its theme of student self-government, instantly approved of this pleasant activity that the students were taking up of their own initiative...

In other words, I was no longer able to escape after school by leaving the classroom...
After school, the first class study group meeting started right away.

Would they open a textbook, then kindly and carefully explain so that even I could understand it? Of course it didn't turn out to be like such a naive illusion.
After school in the classroom, dozens of my classmates crowded around my desk.
First, before we started studying...

Why were my grades so bad?
What was the reason?
It was decided that we couldn't start until I could clearly answer those questions, become aware of the problem, and show regret for my actions.
......Of course, there's no way for me to respond when asked a question like that.
They have come to loathe me by now.
And they have come to reject me and keep me at a distance so that I can't join in on their community.

So I've started avoiding their community myself.
There shouldn't have been any conflict for either of us that way.
So even in this group that was enthusiastic about raising the class average, they obviously kept me at a distance.

Even if I tried to join in, they would probably ignore me, like they always did in the past.
"If you ask, we'll teach you whatever you want. Okaaaaaaaaaay?!"
"""Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay?!!!"""
They were getting themselves all worked up.
......I've already had enough of the hypocrisy in their little postscript there.
"Ushiromiya-san, the thing that's bad about you is that you're lacking a cooperative personality. You must not think that everything's fine as long as it's alright for just you."
"Those who gather in Saint Lucia's place of learning shall have a cooperative heart. It's written right there in the student handbook, right?"
"I think having a cooperative heart is what gives birth to the desire to study together and contribute to the entire class. I believe that itself is the thing you lack before you even start studying, Ushiromiya-san, but what do you think?!"
"Heeey, have you been listening to us?!
We went to all the trouble of staying after

school to say this for your sake・・・・・・, you see?!"
..................I'm so grateful I could cry.
Of course, they didn't like that.

'This way, it almost makes it look like we're bullying you', they reprimanded me.

Fortunately, I'm normally all cried out anyways.
If I'm told not to cry, I can hold it back.
First, I was made to write a letter of remorse and read it out loud.
Of course, this was to be done by today.
The class committee politely applied to the student council and the staff room for an extension on the use of this classroom.
......It seems it was accepted right away.

Which means that starting now, I'll be forced into self-criticism for at least a full five hours here......

――Ushiromiya Ange got a low score on her test and caused trouble for her classmates.
"That's not it, riiight?!?!""You getting low grades and causing us trouble isn't the root of the problem, right?!"
"It's a cooperative attitude, right? A cooperative attitude!!"
"Come ooon!! Why do we even have to direct Ushiromiya-san on how to write a letter of regret!"

Their abusive jeers flew about one after another.
I followed their 'directions' and erased it.

――Ushiromiya Ange didn't have a cooperative attitude and caused trouble for her classmates.
"Hey, wait a sec, it's pointless if you just write whatever we say, right?!"
"Do you really know what 'regret' means?!"
"It's pointless if you don't write it in your own words, pointless!"
"I've always thought you were a bit strange, Ushiromiya-san, but you really are weird! *giggle*giggle*giggle*!"
Even following their directions didn't change the jeers much, and now it felt like they were mocking me as well...
So for several more hours, without rest, without even being allowed to go to the bathroom, and of course not permitted to have dinner, as I was continuously abused...

......I was coerced into writing a paragraph which humiliated myself......
♫
And at about 9:00 that night, ......I was told to stand up and read it aloud.

The contents, ......were smeared black with tears and eraser marks.
It certainly was my handwriting, ......but it was like a list of soulless letters, whose contents I couldn't even remember.
Everything had been copied down according to their orders.

So while I had been the one to write the letters, they weren't my words.
I was being coerced into writing it down, and even coerced into reading it aloud.

.........Even after all this time, I was surprised to find that in addition to ignoring them and hiding their things, there are other ways, like this, to bully people......
"Heey! Read it aloud quickly!!"
"Look how many people are staying this late just for you, Ushiromiya-san. Why not thank us a little?"
"Isn't the fact that she doesn't feel gratitude a sign that she doesn't have a scrap of a cooperative attitude?"
"It's alright, Ushiromiya-san. We'll always be with you from now on. Why not study with us and remake yourself? Okay?"
"*giggle*giggle* "Ahahahahaha "Kyahhhyahyahyahya!!"""
As I stood by my seat, surrounded by them, ......I dropped my gaze towards the blackened page.

And then......I spoke those humiliating words, but right away, jeers flew at me saying that they couldn't hear and to speak up.
............I can't read it.

I had no idea...that being forced to read a paragraph humiliating me would be so painful.

My throat shook. My fingertips shook.
......The paragraph of humiliation written in my own handwriting made my eyes burn with a hot liquid.
So my world blurred and twisted.

I saw the girls surrounding me twist and bend.

......I saw them twist and bend into the impression I had of them.
In other words, ......that was my true field of vision.

"Hey!! Are you really listening to us?!"
Someone tugged at my hair.
......I was torn back into the tragic reality.

...I was no longer even permitted to listen to the Seven Sisters speaking on my behalf in my heart.
My hair was lifted upwards, one of my hair ornaments came off, and I could hear the sound of it rolling on the ground.
......No one picked it up.

To the contrary, they casually avoided it as though something filthy was rolling towards them.
I tried to follow it with my eyes, but my hair was tugged upwards again.
"Why do you ne-ver listen to us, even though we're talking about something so serious?!"
"In one ear and out the other, is it? Does anything get into that thick skull of yours?! Get a grip, alright?!"
"Are you really conscious of the trouble you're causing us? You aren't going to start saying that you just wrote it grudgingly because we told you to, right?!"
"Until you really show regret of your own will, this seriously isn't gonna end, right?! It's not just for today. It'll seriously keep on going tomorrow and the day after, you see? Don't fuck with us, okay?!?!"
"I mean, why are you still even alive? Is it normal to go on living like this? If it were me, I'd just die!"
"You can't live like this, can you?! 'Cause you being alive just means getting in other people's way all the time, right? If it were me, I definitely couldn't live on!"
"Yeah, yeah, I'd die too. If doing that's better for the world, then I'd die right away! Riiiiiiiiight?!!"
......Then die.

The place I am, ......is over there.
The me that's surrounded by a crowd and being showered by jeers, ...and who is hanging her head, her eyes red.........

......Isn't the me over there, .........the real me......?
I won't dream anymore.
Because there's nowhere left to run.
I am...going back.
......I'll return myself to the cage made of flesh......
"Hey!! Are you listening to us?! It's not like anything'll be resolved if you just stand there hanging your head, ri-ght?!"
"..............................I hear you."
"Ah, you finally answered. You aren't thinking that this'll end if you stay silent, or that we'll forgive you if you cry, right?! We're asking if you are aware! We're asking if you are aware of the trouble you're causing those around you...!!"
.........I, ...slowly nodded.
...I acknowledged it.
♫
I acknowledged that I had slipped into the world of my daydream, trying to remain separate from the others in my class.

......To disgrace them and separate myself from them, those girls who spoke to me with reliable and kind words, but couldn't help at all now that I really wanted them to, ......I acknowledged that.
"...I, Ushiromiya Ange, do not have a cooperative attitude and caused trouble for my classmates. There is nothing to blame for that except my excessive inferiority complex towards all of my classmates because I am unable to study. And, .....................
.........it's a shame that I am alive."
Starting there, I was no longer reading the paragraph they had made me write.

......It was my...improvisation. And...what was in my heart.

They also noticed that it wasn't what they had anticipated, but while they did frown, no one spoke.
So I continued.
"......That's right. It's a shame that I am alive. ......I should have had them take me with them on that day in 1986. ......And yet, I was the only one that wasn't taken.
......Why am I here, I wonder? ...This is not the world I'm supposed to be in. ............No one will save me. ...For a time, ......I felt as though only the fictional friends I created inside myself could save me. But those friends were nothing more than a delusion, .....and they didn't save me. After all, this isn't a world of delusions, but a world of reality.
.........So, in short, ......up until today, ......I've been having the same daydream. ...I hated my real classmates and only lived by interacting with the friends in my delusion. .........Just now, I split up with those friends. So I am here.
............I have no family. I've thrown my friends away too. ......There is no longer anything left for me. ......Why haven't I died? Someone asked that a short while ago. ...I think they're right. Why, .........am I alive, I wonder? ............I should have died, ............in the year 1986. ...No, I must really have died.
But even so, ............my soul that was killed is still locked up inside this cage of flesh.
So I'll ask someone. If no one answers, ......I'll do it myself.
"Someone, ..................please let me die."
I spoke that sentence, and looked around.
Dumbfounded girls.
Shocked girls.
Girls who looked like they didn't know what this kid was saying.

And, a bit late, more and more girls with faces that said 'Is this girl alright?'
*whisper*. *chatter*.
And then, *giggle*.

.........When I ordered the friends in my daydream to kill, they couldn't do it.
And so.
I asked real humans to kill me, ......but of course, these girls can't do it either.
......In other words, both daydreams and reality are the same.

Doesn't this mean that, including this world...
.........Absolutely everything is a daydream?

Then, ......there's no problem, right?
After all, ......on that day when I lost my family, I was already dead,
......Everything that happened afterwards is my delusion, my life flashing before my eyes after I failed to die.
Once I understood that, ............it felt like the scenery surrounding me began to twist and bend slightly.
.........Yeah.
...I'll finally, .........wake up.
...I'll be released from this daydream world.
I feel my consciousness sliding away.

......That's alright.
Fade farther and farther away, ............and take me to my family......
Therefore, no matter what happens in this twisted, stale world, I won't mind it at all.
I saw the crowd get pushed aside as a teacher stepped in.

Perhaps a teacher doing the rounds happened to notice a strange disturbance.

The teacher was vigorously shouting something, moving to protect me.
......Watching that, I knew that an ally had appeared for me, even if there was only one, and I felt my awareness return very slightly.
...............

......The only ones who can save me in the world of reality, ...are real humans.

There were also bits in Ep 8 but I'd like to hope the ones in Ep 4 are enough.

Originally Posted by Mali

Yes EP6 is just a manuscript. But what about 3-5?
This is a hard question... I would support, but I don't want to release stories about dead relatives.

You said you were talking about Battler. The one writing Banquet and Co is Tohya and Umineko went to great lenght to explain that even though they share the same body we've to acknowledge them as different people.

It also explained that Tohya released Banquet as an attempt to expose what he believed was Eva's sin (he thought Eva had killed everyone) without exposing himself (he didn't acknowledge himself as Battler and didn't want to be acknowledged as such).
In short he didn't do it out of fun or malice toward his relatives but in attempt to pin the blame on the one he believed was the culprit.

Also note that Banquet, Alliance and End written by Tohya were described as different from the ones we read so we can't say exactly how they were (beyond Banquet pinning Eva as the culprit).

We know only that when Tohya met up with Eva and discovered she was innocent he was the leading force among forgery makers (apparently due to him they had grown exponentially) and that, as soon as he found out the truth, realized his actions not only didn't pin the blame on the right culprit but were hurting his sister so he did his best to silence everything.

In short Banquet was, for sure, released with the purpose to bring justice for his dead relatives... Alliance and End we can't know as we might not be reading them as Tohya wrote them.

I wouldn't say his intents were meant to be cruel toward the Ushiromiya (whom, to be honest he didn't acknowledge as relatives). Just misguided and not carefully planned as he didn't realize they could have a backlash that could affect Ange.

[chaos_alfa]

I'm currently reading Umineko Episode 8

Spoiler for Epsiode 8:

I want a clarification about some confusion I have with the rules of the mystery game with purple text. It is stated that purple text should be treated as red truth unless it is being said by a culprit, in that case it could be a lie.

At the 1st Twilight Nanjo is saying in purple "No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself." Why is this being stated in purple? Even if he is a culprit it wouldn't make much sense. It would be a contradiction of the rules. If purple tekst works almost the same as red truth it should be impossible make a mistake with purple tekst. Purple text can only state lies or truth. Following the rules a mistake should only be able to be written in spoken white text.

Currently I'm at the point I can confirm that Kanon and Jessica are death and therefore can't be a culprit and therefore only speak the truth. Kanon was confirmed to be dead by red truth from Bernkastel and Jessica is confirmed to be dead by the narration.

I don't want any hints about the game, I just want to know if I understand the rules correctly or if there is an error or unclarity in the rules.

No spoilers please I haven't figured out everything about the Rokkenjima Incident. I'm planning to reread everything after I'm done with episode 8.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I'm currently reading Umineko Episode 8

Spoiler for Epsiode 8:

I want a clarification about some confusion I have with the rules of the mystery game with purple text. It is stated that purple text should be treated as red truth unless it is being said by a culprit, in that case it could be a lie.

At the 1st Twilight Nanjo is saying in purple "No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself." Why is this being stated in purple? Even if he is a culprit it wouldn't make much sense. It would be a contradiction of the rules. If purple tekst works almost the same as red truth it should be impossible make a mistake with purple tekst. Purple text can only state lies or truth. Following the rules a mistake should only be able to be written in spoken white text.

Currently I'm at the point I can confirm that Kanon and Jessica are death and therefore can't be a culprit and therefore only speak the truth. Kanon was confirmed to be dead by red truth from Bernkastel and Jessica is confirmed to be dead by the narration.

I don't want any hints about the game, I just want to know if I understand the rules correctly or if there is an error or unclarity in the rules.

No spoilers please I haven't figured out everything about the Rokkenjima Incident. I'm planning to reread everything after I'm done with episode 8.

If Nanjo is saying the truth the people who'll claim someone is dead and are innocent will be saying the truth while the culprit might lie about it.
Example:
Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X is surely dead)
Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie)


If Nanjo is the culprit this statement might be a lie therefore an innocent person might mistake an alive person for a dead one.
Example:
Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as he could be making a mistake)
Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie and make mistakes)

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If Nanjo is saying the truth the people who'll claim someone is dead and are innocent will be saying the truth while the culprit might lie about it.
Example:
Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X is surely dead)
Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie)


If Nanjo is the culprit this statement might be a lie therefore an innocent person might mistake an alive person for a dead one.
Example:
Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as he could be making a mistake)
Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie and make mistakes)

Ah I see. So purple tekst CAN be used if someone believes something is the truth even-though it doesn't have to be the case. Mistakes can be made with purple text. I thought this was an impossible feature of red truth.

Does this mean red truth can be used to state falsehoods as long as the stater believes it? Or is the following rule wrong?

"Purple statements are as absolute as red truth. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements."

[Levani]

Does this mean red truth can be used to state falsehoods as long as the stater believes it? Or is the following rule wrong?

No, you can't speak falsehood with the Red Truth. Battler choked when he tried to say that he was Asumu's son, even though he believed that to be true.

However Red Truth has its flaws. Just as any logic has the flaw of noise, so does the Red.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Ah I see. So purple tekst CAN be used if someone believes something is the truth even-though it doesn't have to be the case. Mistakes can be made with purple text. I thought this was an impossible feature of red truth.

Does this mean red truth can be used to state falsehoods as long as the stater believes it? Or is the following rule wrong?

"Purple statements are as absolute as red truth. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements."

No, you can't state falsehood.
You can't say that 'the sun is blue' just because you believe so.
However I think it would be possible to say I BELIEVE the sun is blue because in this case the red truth would refer to what you believe (you truly believe the sun is blue even if actually it's not) and variation of the themes, not to the true colour of the sun.

Red truth must state true things.
However red can still be misleading.
For example in the previous example you might believe my belief was true (=the sun is blue) when the only true thing was that I believed in something false (=the sun isn't blue but I'm sure it is).

There are also more situations in which red can still trick you into believing in something false without stating something false but I'll let you guess them.

[marianx]

if anyone has skype or aim, and solve umineko message me. i want to talk to someone about it so i can figure it out myself. my skype is zaryo@live.com

[Rentora]

Hey guys, I'm a long time lurker and although I've read and re-read the VN/Manga few times there are still few things I don't quite understand. Hopefully you can help me understand it:

1: Ange's timeline. What happened and what didn't happened, and when did it happen compared to other events? If we refer to the magic ending Ange must've met Hachijo Ikuko, but Featherine says their meeting is an illusion or something like this.
Also if they met, I am not certain that Ange could've gone to Rokkenjima so I guess that the events from where Ange jumps from the building, goes to rokkenjima and kills Sumadera are something Ange imaginated ? Since in the magic ending she apparently never went on rokkenjima to begin with.

2 : Episode 3 Shkannon murders. I get the whole Shkanontrice thing but how can Yasu still walk and kill if Shannon and Kanon are dead ? How can one still walk and kill when her two main personaes are dead ? I believe Yasu isn't included as one of her personae so I don't quite get it.

3: Erika's perception of Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Ok the narrator in this episode is Battler and he shows us Kanon and Shannon together at the same time even though Erika is told that kanon or Shannon is away for some reason WHILE the other one is there, ok. But then why do Erika and the Eiseirn Jungfrau perceive Kanon and Shannon at the same time when going back to what happened? They should have realized that the two point of view don't match. That happens after Erika looses against battler in Kinzo's room.

(Sorry for the english errors ^-^)

[AuraTwilight]

1. Everything that occurs after EP4 can be treated as a Forgery; Toya's speculations on what happened to her after she went missing after Eva's death. The Magic Ending, where she doesn't jump, changes her identity, and meets the Hachijous, seems to be her true timeline, though she seems to have memory of all of them because of her jaunt through the Meta-World, maybe.

2. Yasu's trick is that she considers Shannon and Kanon to be people, but not herself. If her two main personas are dead, then she's her "Beatrice" persona, who is a "Witch." She can thus walk around unimpeded.

3. Erika technically never witnesses Shannon and Kanon together at the same time. It's especially weasel-y, but basically the implication is that Yasu was there as Shannon, faked Kanon's voice, and claimed he was behind Gohda or something.

[Levani]

3: Erika's perception of Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Ok the narrator in this episode is Battler and he shows us Kanon and Shannon together at the same time even though Erika is told that kanon or Shannon is away for some reason WHILE the other one is there, ok. But then why do Erika and the Eiseirn Jungfrau perceive Kanon and Shannon at the same time when going back to what happened? They should have realized that the two point of view don't match. That happens after Erika looses against battler in Kinzo's room.

We aren't shown Erika's perspective, rather the story Lambda is telling. We don't actually know what she did or did not saw. This is the trick behind EP5, about it not having "Love", plus Battler fucking up by not playing his goddamn piece, which Lambda effectively moves into the accomplice team, tricking the reader along with it.

I think EP8 manga confirms that Erika did not witness Kanon in that super annoying EP5 scene.

1: Ange's timeline. What happened and what didn't happened, and when did it happen compared to other events? If we refer to the magic ending Ange must've met Hachijo Ikuko, but Featherine says their meeting is an illusion or something like this.
Also if they met, I am not certain that Ange could've gone to Rokkenjima so I guess that the events from where Ange jumps from the building, goes to rokkenjima and kills Sumadera are something Ange imaginated ? Since in the magic ending she apparently never went on rokkenjima to begin with.

I kinda hate EP4 for introducing that clusterfuck of a concept of Ange's timeline. So, my interpretation is that everything until the roof scene in EP3 TP is the Rokkenjima Prime, then Bernkastel shows up and takes Ange into the Meta World, Bernkastel gives that Ange an opportunity to witness a what if scenario if she went with Amakusa, I can see her wiping out a fragment with that setting. Of course, this happens simultaneously as EP4 gameboard progresses. After her death, she is revived by Featherine in a fake world which she notices immediately. Transfered into EP7 TP where she dies again and is revived by Battler in EP8, and in the conclusive part her soul moves on from the Meta World which Ryukishi also refers to as Purgatorio. In the real world, Ange decides to kill her identity, becoming Yukari. That's how I see it.

[Rentora]

1: Still, even if what we're shown were Tohya speculations, Ange must have met Ikuko at some point and learn about the truth inside Eva's diary. So we aren't shown at all when and how those events happened ? The magic endings implies that Ange has already done her "magical journey" and knows about rokkenjima prime and is the witch of resurrection. When did she learn about the truth in the book anyway and when did she meet Ikuko ?

3:

We aren't shown Erika's perspective, rather the story Lambda is telling. We don't actually know what she did or did not saw. This is the trick behind EP5, about it not having "Love", plus Battler fucking up by not playing his goddamn piece, which Lambda effectively moves into the accomplice team, tricking the reader along with it.

I think EP8 manga confirms that Erika did not witness Kanon in that super annoying EP5 scene.

The manga makes it confusing I think, it is the second time I notice that the manga changes a little the story. I know that the narrator is Battler and is unreliable since he is an accomplice. But Erika and co aren't part of Lambda's story, they are independent pieces.
And in episode 8 Erika claims that Kanon and Shannon were never in the same room together at the same time.

Spoiler for image:

So if we refer to this part of the manga none of Erika and the Eisern Jungfrau noticed something was off. If we don't, then Erika must have been really focused on cornering Natsuhi to not realize she never saw Kanon and shannon together in the same room, while she probably heard Kanon talking behind Gohda or something.