(L) Btooom!

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Depends on the person. Some react more sensitive and will build up enough anger to wish death on someone. Actually, wishing for somoene's death is really common, it's nothing strange. And remember that they didn't exactly tell her to die, only to disappear. Who could have known that piece of paper was meant to send people to a merciless death game?

To want someone to disappear is the same as or possibly worse than wanting them dead. And not only WANTING them dead, but ACTING upon those desires. There is absolutely no way to sugarcoat such actions. The icing just won't stick. Trust me.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dengar

To want someone to disappear is the same as or possibly worse than wanting them dead. And not only WANTING them dead, but ACTING upon those desires. There is absolutely no way to sugarcoat such actions. The icing just won't stick. Trust me.

Ah...you just can't let it go, huh?

They suffered psychological and physical trauma. Their reps got shot to hell. They had to leave the area. Their life got ruined. It is not too farfetched to want someone dead in this scenario. Hitmen are hired in real life for lesser reasons. And they get money for it. It's a real deal to get paid to have revenge done on your enemy.

[DragoonKain3]

Wow, Sakamoto and Taira really steaming up the bromance. Might be because I hung around with fujoshis a lot, but I can't help but think that this episode would've been BL bait if Taira was drawn as a bishie instead.

Originally Posted by larethian

Probably because there's no Himiko initially

Seriously? Glad the anime version decided to speed up her involvement with the plot.

[orion]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Wow, Sakamoto and Taira really steaming up the bromance. Might be because I hung around with fujoshis a lot, but I can't help but think that this episode would've been BL bait if Taira was drawn as a bishie instead.

Nah, Taira is a scumbag prob as implied in the flashback and not on Shiki's level of being bad and being attractive to females imo. No positive qualities or implied or in your face domination tendencies were added to his character. You might want to consider suffering thru a few episodes of Togainu no Chi to see an example of how the attractive bad boys are done in BL/yaoi.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by orion

Ah...you just can't let it go, huh?

They suffered psychological and physical trauma. Their reps got shot to hell. They had to leave the area. Their life got ruined. It is not too farfetched to want someone dead in this scenario. Hitmen are hired in real life for lesser reasons. And they get money for it. It's a real deal to get paid to have revenge done on your enemy.

That... Doesn't really make it any more understandable or forgivable.

Originally Posted by orion

Their reps got shot to hell. They had to leave the area. Their life got ruined.

About this bit: Why? Why? and uh, How?

The anime never said that their reputations were affected. So why would you assume that it was?

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dengar

That... Doesn't really make it any more understandable or forgivable.



About this bit: Why? Why? and uh, How?

The anime never said that their reputations were affected. So why would you assume that it was?

You're really having a hard time with this.

It goes back to society views and in this situation otaku views on sex. This was in the news and it involved a celebrity group. That means that it went viral on Facebook. Because they were raped, they can be considered as damaged second hand goods. Some people would think that they asked for it. Stuff like that

Teen stuff that you take for granted like socializing on Facebook is cut off for them. Dating is now an issue as they prob are going to be in psych therapy for recovery.

Here's something to read.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_...me1issue1/gray ('The influence of rape myths.." section is particularly enlightening.)
http://nevadasagebrush.com/blog/2012...ape-sexuality/
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/05/health...ies/index.html
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...GirlIsNotASlut (Reading the first link will explain the basis for this trope.)

[Dengar]

Oh come on, who in their right mind would slander a victim? Anyone who does should just be shooed out anyways.

Besides, how does this justify murder of someone who didn't have anything to do with it?

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Oh come on, who in their right mind would slander a victim? Anyone who does should just be shooed out anyways.

Besides, how does this justify murder of someone who didn't have anything to do with it?

I suggest you read the first of those links, it's quite sobering. That trial must have been hell for the girls as they were obviously eager to meet the band members and would thus have to prove that they really didn't want to have sex.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Dengar

To want someone to disappear is the same as or possibly worse than wanting them dead. And not only WANTING them dead, but ACTING upon those desires. There is absolutely no way to sugarcoat such actions. The icing just won't stick. Trust me.

About the wanting for someone to disappear being equal to wanting them dead; we have slightly different viewpoints on that. It's true that both of the things fit together perfectly, but I still differentiate them. They're two different things because wanting someone to disappear doesn't kill that person nor does it neccessarily result in an attempt to do so. If Himiko's friends knew that she was technically sent away to be killed, chances are they'd accept that without second thought as a mere by-product of their curse. But they probably don't even know about that and the "game". So the 'cursing' is the first sequence and the 'killing' the second sequence that only happens with a vague (albeit high) probability depending on many different aspects. Btw. that they wrote on the paper was still part of the 'cursing' and not of the 'killing' or 'acting' as you call it.

And no, I was not trying to sugarcoat anything.

[ditn]

hm i was starting to think after they show the part of observing the people on the island.
are they using people to have idea's/data for a new btoom game?

[Dengar]

I'm not quite sure WHAT they're researching.

Originally Posted by Znail

I suggest you read the first of those links, it's quite sobering. That trial must have been hell for the girls as they were obviously eager to meet the band members and would thus have to prove that they really didn't want to have sex.

The first article is quite long. I read parts of it, skimmed others. But all it seems to talk about is more twisted things about male dominance and women for some stupid reason not standing up for themselves.

[Myssa Rei]

Dengar, you seem to have a serious problem understanding why these girls did this. If at this point, you STILL can't have an inkling at this point, then it's not going to happen. I suggest dropping it, for everyone here.

Also, as someone who has *CENSORED FOR PRIVACY* let me say if given the chance to send someone away forever, I'd take it.

As for WHAT they're "researching", that's a spoiler, which can easily answered via PM if you want.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Dengar, you seem to have a serious problem understanding why these girls did this. If at this point, you STILL can't have an inkling at this point, then it's not going to happen. I suggest dropping it, for everyone here.

I do believe I actually mentioned this myself at some point. At least I think I did. I just can't make sense of it. Because it goes against all things that make sense to me.


Ok, there's one last question, after that I promise I'll try to leave well enough alone:

Why didn't those girls use that thing, to, you know, banish the rapists rather than the girl who did nothing wrong? Is the girl who did nothing wrong worse than the rapists? Is this what happens when you take a male-dominated world to its logical conclusion?... I'm sorry, am I -really- that weird to be really touched by this severe misdirection of hatred? The ones who committed the crime get to go scot-free because they're dudes, but the girl who, from a certain twisted point of view, and even then, only because she didn't know it would happen, allowed the crime to happen gets the punishment? Am I really that weird to think this is unfair?

[frivolity]

The guys were probably in jail or something by then since they were shown to be in police custody. I don't see it as an issue of gender either, because if Himeko had been a boy in the same chain of events, then they would have written her (his) name down as well.

[Myssa Rei]

The sempai and her cronies were alluded (in the manga anyway; there's a throwaway line during the scene where Himeko is confronted in the rain) to have been arrested and in custody. The reason SHE got voted to the island is because, as far as the victimized girls are concerned, is that SHE didn't get what she deserved for her part, unintentional as it is, in what happened.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm not quite sure WHAT they're researching.



The first article is quite long. I read parts of it, skimmed others. But all it seems to talk about is more twisted things about male dominance and women for some stupid reason not standing up for themselves.

Looks to me like they are making a TV show that they plan to sell somehow.

I think you missunderstood what the article was about. It was about how the Japanese society impacted how rape was handled in the legal system. The short answer is very poorly. The victim actually has to prove that they are not only virtous and didn't want sex, but also that they resisted sufficiently to make that clear to the perp. This means that the victim is the one on trial. There are more bad implications then that, but that is one relevant here.

Now, that doesn't in any way make Himiko guilty or actually deserving her fate to be sent to hell island, it just explaines why the girls had to move towns and such.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I do believe I actually mentioned this myself at some point. At least I think I did. I just can't make sense of it. Because it goes against all things that make sense to me.


Ok, there's one last question, after that I promise I'll try to leave well enough alone:

Why didn't those girls use that thing, to, you know, banish the rapists rather than the girl who did nothing wrong? Is the girl who did nothing wrong worse than the rapists? Is this what happens when you take a male-dominated world to its logical conclusion?... I'm sorry, am I -really- that weird to be really touched by this severe misdirection of hatred? The ones who committed the crime get to go scot-free because they're dudes, but the girl who, from a certain twisted point of view, and even then, only because she didn't know it would happen, allowed the crime to happen gets the punishment? Am I really that weird to think this is unfair?

Maybe the kidnappers can't get at the rapists and access was easier with Himiko.

I don't think that the hatred was misdirected.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by orion

Maybe the kidnappers can't get at the rapists and access was easier with Himiko.

I don't think that the hatred was misdirected.

So you seriously blame Himiko for what happened? Being neighbor with a pop bamd means you deserve to be banished somewhere? It's pretty obvious that Himiko was rather unintersted in the pop band, but her friends were are giddy to meet them, so who do you think were the driving force behind it all? It's pretty obvious that it was her friends that begged Himiko to set them up with a meeting with the pop band and not Himiko that dragged them there.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Znail

Looks to me like they are making a TV show that they plan to sell somehow.

I think you missunderstood what the article was about. It was about how the Japanese society impacted how rape was handled in the legal system. The short answer is very poorly. The victim actually has to prove that they are not only virtous and didn't want sex, but also that they resisted sufficiently to make that clear to the perp. This means that the victim is the one on trial. There are more bad implications then that, but that is one relevant here.

Now, that doesn't in any way make Himiko guilty or actually deserving her fate to be sent to hell island, it just explaines why the girls had to move towns and such.

Yeah to me that sounds like male dominance and women not standing up for myself. I know I know it's a culture thing. I can't say "They have to change that", but please forgive me for not exactly understanding.

Anyway, I apologize for not seeing things the way you guys do. Maybe the idea just doesn't click. I just honestly believe that this retribution is wrong, and I react strongly in the face of unfairness. And I really apologize if I offend anyone by saying this, but.. I'm not religious, but I still hope hell has a special place reserved for these girls.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yeah to me that sounds like male dominance and women not standing up for myself.

That last bit sounds like victim-blaming, really. If the girls in that story (or girls in reality) in Japan were to say "I'm standing up for myself! I'm not leaving my home area!" do you think that would mean they would be able to escape the consequences of being known to be a rape victim? The reality for them is that being raped caused their reputations immense damage. Social stigma isn't something people can avoid just because they want to, unfortunately.

That said, of course you're correct that it was unfair of those girls to put down Himiko's name. That's not in doubt. I think what you don't understand is that it's actually quite common for people to blame people for things which weren't their fault - or for which they weren't the ones most at fault. People can get pretty weird, you know?

For an example of how weird people can get, I'll give the example of two people I know in real life. I'll call them A and B. A, entirely through her own stupidity and carelessness, nearly got her entire family killed. The only reason they weren't killed is that person B saved them all. But in the process, person B was seriously and dramatically injured. Were A and her family grateful? Did they say thank you, or send flowers? No. While B was (more or less literally) bandaged head to foot and immobile for many weeks on end, A and her family started to do things like dump trash on B's lawn. A started to hate B and think that B deserved to be hurt rather than have to accept that she was to blame for B's horrific injuries. It's a known psychological thing that happens sometimes.

It's not the same situation as the Btooom! girls, but sometimes when bad things happen, blame isn't assigned rationally. In the case of Himiko's friend, maybe Himiko was the most convenient person to blame. She was the only one to escape, and was the one who arranged for them all to meet those guys, so it looks like her friends were overcome with jealousy and bitterness. Which doesn't make it right or fair for them to want her to disappear...

Originally Posted by orion

I don't think that the hatred was misdirected.

Why on Earth would Himiko be more deserving of hatred than the rapists?