General Gun Control DISCUSSION Thread

[Ithekro]

It is unfortunate (for the media) that the incident with that guy driving the stolen tank in Los Angeles didn't happen today. They could claim he played World of Tanks for hours and hours.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I don't have as much against gun-free zones as GundamFan does, however... if you want to make an area a "Gun Free Zone," you need to hire armed security. A gun-free zone is nothing but a big neon sign that says, "THESE PEOPLE ARE COMPLETELY UNARMED. FEEL FREE TO KILL THEM WITH IMPUNITY."

This doesn't happen in reality. College campuses, hospitals, federal buildings (post offices being a big one) - these are all places with firearm restrictions. Do they attract more murders and gunfire than "the streets"? I don't have the statistics, but based on all the cases that I've heard of in local and national news, I would tell you that it's not the case. Also, while many of these places have their own security, the security that I've seen in hospitals and college campuses tend to be either unarmed or lightly armed (baton and taser, sometimes a hand gun), and their presence isn't particularly obvious in most cases. Thus far I've only seen one hospital that utilized a metal detector at their entrance. So that's not what's deterring it, either.

[maplehurry]

Gunman motive revealed.

The gunman who slaughtered 20 children and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, according to a lifelong resident of the area who was familiar with the killer’s family and several of the victims’ families.

Adam Lanza, 20, targeted Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school “more than she loved him,” said Joshua Flashman, 25, who grew up not far from where the shooting took place.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18...#ixzz2FRHbQEWp

Well, I guessed the 2nd part correctly.

[Bri]

I don't think gun free zone or not is going to make much difference in the target selection by serial killers like Lanza. They seem to carry a grudge against (part of) society and try to maximize media/social impact without any consideration about self preservation. Shooting up a primary school is about as evil an act you can think of.

Firearms in combination with the element of surprise give an attacker a massive advantage, even over armed security guards. According to the latest reports Lanaz's mother was a doomsday prepper but ironically not prepared to deal with the enemy within.

An episode of the British version of Life on Mars gave an interesting view on such individuals: A janitor lead a quiet but unremarkable life and tried to be respected but was never noticed, in the end he found it easier to finally gain recognition as a villain by taking hostages to get his life story published.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

Oh great, here comes the "video games are evil" line.

Connecticut school massacre: Adam Lanza 'spent hours playing Call Of Duty’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...l-Of-Duty.html

And the immediate loud answer should be, "yes, and so did MILLIONS of other people who have never done a violent thing in their life."

You might as well blame the availability of electricity or running water. Really, when will these "non-gaming witchhunters" get old and die?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Vexx

And the immediate loud answer should be, "yes, and so did MILLIONS of other people who have never done a violent thing in their life."

You might as well blame the availability of electricity or running water. Really, when will these "non-gaming witchhunters" get old and die?

Never let a good crisis go to waste, amirite?

[erneiz_hyde]

While I'm still skeptical, I'm willing to give leeway or benefit of doubt with those claims about prolonged exposure to violent games. I myself actually feel that I might have an inner 'violent' tendency which I guess originated from Mortal Kombat I played since a kid (because otherwise, I'm quite the pacifist! and seriously, I wonder what went on in my parents' mind when they gave me that game as birthday present). However, what I don't like is the masses then tends to blame these games so over the top as if it's the sole cause and as if banning them is the only and correct solution. I guess it's similar to what happens with guns.

[Vexx]

There is no correlation, in fact there's a negative correlation. You'd have better luck correlating running water in the house with violent tendencies. This is feel-good soccer-mom non-gaming nonsense simply makes the advocate look stupid.

Its the modern equivalent of me playing "army" with my friends in the neighborhood when I was a kid, bang bang followed by over-the-top death scenes falling off of fences, trees, roofs, etc.

Here .. a bit of science instead of soccer-mom emotional bullshit:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...inues-to-fall/

(for our global readers, US "soccer moms" is a term that describes people who don't have a fucking clue but they have very strong fact-free emotional opinions)

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vexx

There is no correlation, in fact there's a negative correlation. You'd have better luck correlating running water in the house with violent tendencies. This is feel-good soccer-mom non-gaming nonsense simply makes the advocate look stupid.

Its the modern equivalent of me playing "army" with my friends in the neighborhood, bang bang followed by over-the-top death scenes falling off of fences, trees, roofs, etc.

Here .. a bit of science instead of soccer-mom emotional bullshit:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...inues-to-fall/

(for our global readers, US "soccer moms" is a term that describes people who don't have a fucking clue but they have very strong fact-free emotional opinions)

It started since Columbine I guess. I am starting to see a trend where video game makers who publish run-and-gun games being the scapegoat when gun crimes are concerned.

Cmon, how many people who played Doom actually participated in a shootout out of all the players?

[Urzu 7]

If the only thing we did to try and stop rampant gun violence in America was to ban all violent video games, guess what? We'd still have out of control gun violence and lots of shooting sprees! Violent video games aren't the reason for shooting sprees and out of control gun violence in America.

The UK, Ireland, France, Canada, and Norway, combined, must have a few million or more gamers who play violent video games. I'm just so shocked that somehow they don't have rampant gun violence and a plethora of shooting sprees.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

If the only thing we did to try and stop rampant gun violence in America was to ban all violent video games, guess what? We'd still have out of control gun violence and lots of shooting sprees! Violent video games aren't the reason for shooting sprees and out of control gun violence in America.

The UK, Ireland, and France must have a couple million or more gamers who play violent video games. I'm just so shocked that somehow they don't have rampant gun violence and a plethora of shooting sprees.

That's what I wrote earlier. The people are looking the wrong way by accusing video games of this or that while the common denominator to explain gun violence in the US is still more obvious than that.

And guess what. Gamers are also found by millions in Canada, Germany, UK, Sweden, China, Japan, Australia and many more. Seriously, the fool who sparked the debate today should be ashamed of himself/herself.

[Ithekro]

From my experiance, it seems that violent games are used as on outlet for violent tendances so that people don't go off in public. Before that it was target shooting for some. Tough week at the office? Go out to the shooting range and pop off some shells, feel better the next week. Not humans need be harmed in either process.

Before that people use to take it outside behind the barn and punch each other until they were done. We don't do that (much) any more.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

That's what I wrote earlier. The people are looking the wrong way by accusing video games of this or that while the common denominator to explain gun violence in the US is still more obvious than that.

And guess what. Gamers are also found by millions in Canada, Germany, UK, Sweden, China, Japan, Australia and many more. Seriously, the fool who sparked the debate today should be ashamed of himself/herself.

There isn't a "common denominator" for violence in America. It is a multitude of causes and variables all swirling together to form a powder-keg situation. Easy access to weapons doesn't cause violence, it just makes it easier to perform.

The gap between rich and poor, the sociopolitical climate, the sorry state of America's public healthcare system, the "let them eat cake" mentality directed toward the poor, the criminalization of poverty, the criminalization of addiction to controlled substances, the sorry state of America's education system, the job market, the rising cost of food and the "feel-good" gun control legislation that does nothing to stop violence and does lots to annoy the hell out of everyone else.

[Lost Cause]

Wow, missed a lot of stuff!
First off Reckoner, I suppose you've never seen the inside of a stock yard or rendering plant? I suggest you take a look at one some time and see how revolting it is, how cruely the animals are treated, and a peek at the "killing floor". I think you might look differently at your store bought meats.
As for the hunting side of it, the game has every chance of escaping the hunter (as long as its not a "canned hunt") simply by evading the hunter. Also any true hunter will make a humane kill with one shot, dress the animal in the field, take to a proper butcher shop and tell the butcher what additives and preservatives to use in the meat and his too cut, and it what portions.
GDB: You act like hunting is a sport for cowards. When in fact these same people are probably the best conservationists on the planet! They see to there hunting lands, make sure predators are destroyed, insure proper iragation is kept, and even grow food for the game! Also they make sure with the annual hunt that the species is not overpopulated! Something far more tragic than killing the animal for food. And the state usually keeps a quota of the yearly kill ratio, and what's still living as well.
Odds and Ends: Cars vs Guns? Yeah ok, so suppose Timothy McViegh had parked his van loaded with explosives outside a school, want to guess the death toll? And to my knowledge the ingredients in his bomb are still quite available! Yes bullets kill, but a car can be a runaway bomb, or mass bludgeon! Witness the carbombs of say Beruit?
And while we're on the topic, whats to say these killers (YES HE DID KILL!) don't adopt suicide bomber tactics if the guns are confiscated? Think about it!
As for what I would like to see: More enforcement of the current laws! A mandatory background check and qualifying fit those who carry or own a firearm! And an armed presence at the schools! Retired LEOs and Military people will do nicely!

[Ithekro]

Well as the troops return from Afghanistan, we will have plenty of people to fill the "armed presence" roll.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

And an armed presence at the schools!

I'd only advocate this as an interim measure. Personally, I'm not very comfortable with how our culture has increasingly sheltered kids out of fear for the worst. A school shouldn't feel like a prison. Any change to secure schools should be done as covertly and non-intrusively as possible, like civilian clothed officers and such. The fact that some schools have barred windows and metal detectors is a bit depressing.

Taking steps for precaution is one thing, overreacting and turning into "big brother" in the futile attempt to protect our children from every germ and bullet in the world is another.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Solace

I'd only advocate this as an interim measure. Personally, I'm not very comfortable with how our culture has increasingly sheltered kids out of fear for the worst. A school shouldn't feel like a prison. Any change to secure schools should be done as covertly and non-intrusively as possible, like civilian clothed officers and such. The fact that some schools have barred windows and metal detectors is a bit depressing.

Taking steps for precaution is one thing, overreacting and turning into "big brother" in the futile attempt to protect our children from every germ and bullet in the world is another.

I agree, but it does seem a bit odd that your average mall has security guards, but schools typically do not.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

GDB: You act like hunting is a sport for cowards. When in fact these same people are probably the best conservationists on the planet! They see to there hunting lands, make sure predators are destroyed, insure proper iragation is kept, and even grow food for the game! Also they make sure with the annual hunt that the species is not overpopulated! Something far more tragic than killing the animal for food. And the state usually keeps a quota of the yearly kill ratio, and what's still living as well.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone who hunts is like that. None are hicks who just go hunting so they can drink while shooting stuff. Nope, they're all noble souls who care for the poor animals. Seriously, exaggeration much?

And I never said hunting is a sport for cowards, just that most of the people who do hunt wouldn't dare do it if they didn't overpower their game by exponential means.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I agree, but it does seem a bit odd that your average mall has security guards, but schools typically do not.

Not really. Malls have stuff that people would, and often try to, steal. That's not true of schools. Don't believe for a second that mall cops are there to protect you. They're there to protect the stores and the merchandise.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Vexx

There is no correlation, in fact there's a negative correlation. You'd have better luck correlating running water in the house with violent tendencies. This is feel-good soccer-mom non-gaming nonsense simply makes the advocate look stupid.

Its the modern equivalent of me playing "army" with my friends in the neighborhood when I was a kid, bang bang followed by over-the-top death scenes falling off of fences, trees, roofs, etc.

Let me clarify that I never believe in "blaming the tools" (if there's anything to blame, then it's the humans) and I don't advocate these "games are evil~!" mentality (I actually believe quite the opposite, that violent games serves as a safe venting for violent urges), but it's also true that I feel I may have awakened to a whole new sense of twisted pleasure by indulging in them too much (look up what "ryona" means).

I have watched in Discovery or something that the disability of some people to not be able to separate game and real life can be considered a relatively new mental illness (the show highlights some Korean MMO or other online game addicts). In a sense, games may have triggered violent tendencies in these people, like how a match may trigger an urge to burn things in an arsonist. But this still means that the object itself is not particularly 'at fault', just that different people react to different things differently.

And I'm also not sure in equating playing "army" as a kid with violence in games because games(especially the Mortal Kombat I mentioned earlier) can be depicted as quite...graphic. Graphic depiction can have more impact on a psyche than a relatively harmless kid make believes. And as how games these days strive for more 'realism', I suspect that the impact on psyche will also increase accordingly.

But indeed, blaming games isn't the answer. I have had my share of mad when Japanese news tends to correlate otaku criminals to manga or game.

[Urzu 7]

It is just sad that some people say "Ban violent video games" or "We need to arm every principal/arm teachers" but all we have to do is figure out how to make it harder for guns to get into the wrong hands. Guns are pretty much floating around American society. We have to find a way to make it so it is harder for guns to get into the wrong hands, and let us be realistic, they'll always end up in the wrong hands sometimes. We just have to minimize this.

And if we arm teachers, you better believe there will be incidents were students get access to the guns there on school grounds and then shoot students, faculty, and staff. Arming teachers and putting guns in nearly every school out there? Holy shit, people. That is not the answer!