[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[ElderKain]

Yay! for 100% TL ^.^ (according to the Witch Hunt News page)

Now for the Editing to get finished, then it would be availiable ^.^ I just got the Ep6 and DLed the Ep5 Patch for the Ep6 Arc version which includes Ep5 as well, and I just read the Ep6 Preview before it switches back to Japanese version >.<.

I look forward to the full version TLed release^.^

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It's not about why would Kinzo do it, but more about how would they explain that away later when everyone "rises from the dead" except Kinzo...

Well that is a problem..., but we run into a similar problem in episode 5 when everyone "rises from the dead" except Krauss.

To resolve that that either means a fake Kinzo corpse might exist, and then we run into Dlanor's red. Or there's the possibility that everyone faking in the first twilight is not strictly necessary for every game.


EDIT: or rather they could just call that thing in the boiler room 'Kinzo's corpse' when it's really something else.

[Kylon99]

Hmm...
It may not really be that serious a problem that everyone finds out that Kinzo dead. Maybe everyone who is in on the fakery knows. By this I mean everyone who is brought in on the fakery. So for example, Eva, Natsuhi, Rosa, Maria and Kyrie in EP6. Because people who can't be responsible for the plan somehow become willing to go through with it too..

In other words the Fakery plan super-cedes any of the siblings and servant's personal desires. Except of course for the betrayer who wants to take things into his/her own hand.

EDIT: For example, Kinzo's will: "Ok you brats, I know you want to fight over my money and I don't give a damn about that. All I care about now that I'm dead is that I want to scare the pants off Battler. Do this for me and you can have as much of the gold as you want." Betrayer's thinking: "But this plan somehow fails to take my personal desire into account. I'm going to screw with it as much as i can. I know that not everyone is aware of the faking just yet, so I will take this opportunity to recast it as a REAL murder."

Something like that?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

EDIT: or rather they could just call that thing in the boiler room 'Kinzo's corpse' when it's really something else.

This is possible in theory but very hard in practice. Basically, you can make a model of a corpse by getting a real human skeleton (easy enough, you can buy a real one from school supplies - expensive but not much of a problem), add extra toes, then fill it with meat and organs (cheap, but a lot of work)... but then the real snag comes up - you need to set the incinerator heat just right so that it burns far enough that a fake is not discoverable, but not far enough that metallic joint connectors are visible. Extra toes would be the weakest point...

And if they can't present a real living Kinzo afterwards, I don't think saying he just left for a walk is going to cut it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

And if they can't present a real living Kinzo afterwards, I don't think saying he just left for a walk is going to cut it.

Yeah this is really the problem if that theory is true. It's not that the corpse is fake. It's "if it's fake how do they know it's fake"? And if you can prove it is later how do you keep Kinzo alive after that?

Assuming they can do that though they're still in the same situation of covering up his death as they were before. The difference is that the real body is missing.

[Renall]

Remember: Kinzo can't die. The goal of the concealment of his death is to later declare him missing. If there's any overlap between the fakers and that group (and it seems like, if nothing else, Genji and Kumasawa overlap), I can't see them risking that unless they were just so disgusted with the situation that the goal was to out Kinzo's body one way or another.

But if you wanted to betray the hide-his-death conspiracy, you wouldn't "kill" Kinzo in the one way that prevents his time of death from being established. At the same time, the burner can't be ignorant. He or she, even if not part of the first group, knows Kinzo's already dead the moment her or she lays eyes and hands on his body.

They're making a deliberate, and very curious, decision with disposing of the corpse as they have.

[Oliver]

...That's actually another snag on the FFT route in general.

It feels highly odd that Kinzo would not go out of his room or even talk to anyone by phone if there was an incident like the first twilight. Characters even remark on that multiple times.

So if the Kinzo Phantom team and FFT team share members, (and Nanjo simply has to be one shared member) how does the Kinzo Phantom team plan to pull through this without losing the "living" Kinzo, even if they don't plan to use his body?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Oliver

...That's actually another snag on the FFT route in general.

It feels highly odd that Kinzo would not go out of his room or even talk to anyone by phone if there was an incident like the first twilight. Characters even remark on that multiple times.

So if the Kinzo Phantom team and FFT team share members, (and Nanjo simply has to be one shared member) how does the Kinzo Phantom team plan to pull through this without losing the "living" Kinzo, even if they don't plan to use his body?

Like I was saying, it seems like both the Blackmail Krauss group (the siblings) and the Anti-Inheritance group (Natsuhi, Krauss) eventually get co-opted by the Beatrice Faction. Whatever they wanted soon becomes irrelevant in the face of the Faking plan..

Essentially the servants are playing along with those two groups until their plan is sprung. And they have something which totally overrides the other two groups. So it makes sense there's a betrayer; someone still feels like they need to escape that super overriding plan.

[Oliver]

It's easy enough to derail the Blackmail Krauss Conspiracy -- showing them Kinzo's will should be an overriding concern for them, especially if they stand to gain anything from it.

Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy, on the other hand, stands squarely against Kinzo's will running at all, and they're the one who are screwed if Kinzo's body shows up too...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

how does the Kinzo Phantom team plan to pull through this without losing the "living" Kinzo, even if they don't plan to use his body?

This might be where the third group comes in. There's the rekiller and the burner. Both of them kind of screw over the fake death and keep kinzo alive groups.

The fake death group actually kind of helps Keep Kinzo alive most of the time by making it seem like it's a prank by Kinzo. It's when people start really dying and Kinzo's corpse shows up that everybody starts realizing they're screwed.

[Renall]

The easiest way for the fake death team to keep Kinzo alive is to claim it was all his idea, and that he's sitting up in his study laughing all the way. How does he know? Obviously he must have had CCTV installed or something. Doesn't that sound like Father?

In other words, to keep him alive, it's critical he not be used, or have some excuse such as vanishing to avoid being part of the "story."

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

The easiest way for the fake death team to keep Kinzo alive is to claim it was all his idea, and that he's sitting up in his study laughing all the way. How does he know? Obviously he must have had CCTV installed or something. Doesn't that sound like Father?

...But that would only be effective if there were no plans to fake-kill the majority of the island population. I.e. if the fake deaths were supposed to stop a couple twilights down.

Otherwise, no amount of CCTV would cut it, I'm afraid - someone would actually break down the study door.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Renall

But who is supposed to be a witness? And if they are, how do the fakers ensure the bomb doesn't kill them? There's no real point in faking your deaths and making Kinzo appear dead too if nobody survives to report it outside your group.

You tell someone who doesn't fake their death to lead everyone who is 'alive' to Kuwadorian. I would think that Eva would be this person in episode 3.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

You tell someone who doesn't fake their death to lead everyone who is 'alive' to Kuwadorian. I would think that Eva would be this person in episode 3.

So Eva goes wide eyed and crazy, shoots Battler dead, and then suddenly has a change of heart and saves Jessica? The daughter of the older brother that she hates?

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Judoh

So Eva goes wide eyed and crazy shoots Battler dead and then suddenly has a change of heart and saves Jessica? The daughter of the older brother that she hates?

That's not why I used Eva as an example, she ran to Kuwadorian and I think it was because she was told it was a safe spot. She shot Battler for one of a number of various reasons. After George had died, she had no will to save anyone besides herself.

[Laserworm]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

That's not why I used Eva as an example, she ran to Kuwadorian and I think it was because she was told it was a safe spot. She shot Battler for one of a number of various reasons. After George had died, she had no will to save anyone besides herself.

I think her reasons for shooting Battler and possibly Jessica/leaving her behind, are because she thinks they are the culprits who killed George.

[Kylon99]

Wait, maybe we can think of it like this:

Kinzo Ghost Team <-> Blackmail Krauss Team

are not aware of

Beatrice Faction (and the first twilight fakery)

are not aware of

Betrayer Faction <-> Revenge Killers, etc, etc

are not aware of

etc..

Essentially.. if it were like Venn diagrams...
[Kinzo vs. Blackmail [ Beatrice [ Betrayers ] ] ]


By the way does the fact that Kinzo's body was used for the first twilight show that Team Beatrice has no interest in maintaining the illusion that Kinzo is alive?

EDIT: Maybe this is why they talked about the puzzle about coins in a cup. Ryukishi was using it to illustrate this idea.. how someone can belong to two cups at once, with one cup totally inside another cup.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

EDIT: Maybe this is why they talked about the puzzle about coins in a cup. Ryukishi was using it to illustrate this idea.. how someone can belong to two cups at once, with one cup totally inside another cup.

That actually sounds like it, but until we are settled on which faction is doing what, the puzzle isn't really solvable.

[Disz]

I beleive there should only be two teams,and 1 team of betrayers.Anything else is just....confusing.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Disz

I beleive there should only be two teams,and 1 team of betrayers.Anything else is just....confusing.

But then the rock paper scissor analogy for Rule Z doesn't work.

That is unless the detective counts as a team of his own. Maybe Battler's super paper!

EDIT: Actually I think it would be a bitter sweet end for Battler to have to kill the culprit to stop all the murders. We know solving the epitaph doesn't work and the other solution Kinzo gave in EP4 besides that was to kill the murderer.