2009-03-13, 00:31 | Link #1161 | |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Additionally, if you play through Tsukihime, the 'back side' of the story, the 'Far Side of the Moon' stories you unlock later in the game are like this as well. They do not seem like the true ending to Tsukihime even though these are the final endings you get to the game. They are more like additional stories that could happen but probably wouldn't considering the characters. Just because it is the final ending doesn't mean it is the real ending. You can say that you aren't saying it because it is the final ending, but because it feels 'complete', but after reading Nasu's works, his stories don't really have 'complete' endings. The endings that do have complete endings just don't feel like they are proper to the story. I don't want to reveal Tsukihime endings nor the Kara no Kyoukai ending because just having them hidden by a spoiler button will not be enough to keep people from clicking it who want to find out on their own. In short, Nasu's endings are typically not happy endings. Nor are they complete endings. The immediate problem that everyone is facing is finished, but the underlying problem still exists in these stories typically. A good story doesn't have to have a complete ending, a partial ending works as well if it is worked well enough. Destruction of the Great Holy Grail seems too much un-Nasu-like whereas just the destruction of the Holy Grail seems like something he would write. He leaves these stories open which I like because it allows for fanfic writers, like myself, to capitalize on the possibilities that still exist. He presents questions, gives a simple answer, but does not leave not a complete answer. |
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2009-03-13, 00:42 | Link #1162 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I will say now that I am incredibly biased against your opinion, because I really really hate fanfics. To me, they feel like they're denying the real story to replace with what 'YOU', the reader, thinks is better, and it's my personal, deep-seated belief that stories belong to the people who write them. And how is a writer supposed to write a FANFIC about his own work? Semantically, that doesn't make sense... |
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2009-03-13, 01:23 | Link #1163 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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I have seen the final dojo, but from the follow up game, I just don't see the connection between HF and FH/A. Archer in his reincarnation for the bout with avenger is one that is renewed in a sense, his actions seem more purposeful, his summoning in itself are different, but from what is implied and archer's purpose in the whole time line, the only two endings that really allow for shirou to become archer are fate and UBW. This is the key difference. It really isn't just about shirou sacrificing his ideals to save sakura in HF, in UBW he becomes an Archer who accepts his role as the counter guardian. The whole purpose of shirou is to find HIS ideal, not the one left by his father, that is why HF feels like he doesn't feel like he chooses his destiny. Even though shirou's fate in UBW and Fate are both unknown, the fact that he is in control of it, and even though his future as archer will be painful, he moves on forward, marching toward that end. Until otherwise stated, I'll keep treating all three as canon, and seeing as we probably won't see an sequel anytime soon, it'll just be out there. I just find that what fan's want and what the creator has in mind is usually quite different.
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2009-03-13, 04:28 | Link #1164 | ||
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Nasu's works released by Type-Moon are ALL (with the exception of ONE route in the game) fanfics written by Nasu. There is only one route in the game intended by Nasu to be the true story. Every other story written follows the rules of a fanfic: using characters from the canon universe, and being placed in an alternate universe setting. Nasu goes and creates the characters for the story, the setting, the plot, and the conclusion. Say he wants the True Heavens Feel ending to be the 'true' story of Fate. Then what are all the rest? Stories that are not 'real' compared to the 'true' story but involve all the canonical characters in an alternate universe that go through different ordeals and/or events than the original story. If you refuse to accept this, than you cannot claim any of the endings in F/SN to be a true ending to the story at all. My stance on this is that I believe the True UBW story to be the real story and the rest to be fanfics written by Nasu. Heavens Feel, to me, feels the most conjured story compared to all the rest knowing how each character lives their lives and their personalities you learn through the rest of the story. As it is the least likely to be the real story, which by my belief is the True UBW, it easily makes HF to be a fanfic. Allow me to bring some quotes out from the final Tiger Dojo. Quote:
It says that it is one of the answers among a (supposedly) infinite number of answers. Why? Because the story is Shirou's story, it poses the question in UBW but leaves it open for the reader to decide. That is why HF is a fanfic, written by the author. It is a possible ending, among any number of endings; it is up to the reader to decide what ending they want. Since no 'true' answer exists, that is why I see the True UBW ending to be the real ending, ending the game with the question raised. As to the way you worded your message, I really dislike fanfics that do the same: denying the ending by changing things on that ending. The fanfics I like (and the ones I write) are stories that continue after the ending is complete. I enjoy a story in its entirety and I write what I think could happen after the ending but not as a degradation to the ending but as another story using the original story, ending included, as a base to write from. I dislike stories that change the original to suit their own work. That seems like you are telling the original author that they wrote a bad story and you could write one better. The ones I like accept the story and continue where the story ends or do like what F/HA does and puts the setting further down the road from the ending of the story to create a new story using the old events. |
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2009-03-13, 04:45 | Link #1165 |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Working on it. I don't have a copy of Realta Nua and the video on YouTube is difficult to read a lot of the kanji for. I'll try to piece together a translation for it, but don't wait up on it...I've got a bunch of other things on my translation plate...Type-Moon Ace v.1 & 2 for one...F/HA...and a handful of doujins that I picked up in LA. Hopefully will get them all done in time for Mahou Tsukai...whenever that will be.
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2009-03-13, 05:55 | Link #1166 | |||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I guess that's why I just can't enjoy Heavens Feel as much as I did the other routes. I don't like seeing girls being stuffed in roles where they can't do anything but be protected. I like my heroines strong and kicking ass just as much as the guys of the story, yet Heavens Feel gave me a 'princess I must protect' as a heroine. I mean, sure Shirou blabs about protecting girls all the time, but at least in the other two routes the girls tell him to stuff it and go on fighting. Which is also why the final day was the most enjoyable. bye bye pity-poor-Sakura, hello evil-queen-Sakura. Quote:
Technically speaking, this is the same thing as the ending of Heavens Feel: No Archer. However, as the ending states: "Even if it ends up that way, the already existing Knight will always be a guardian. The boy and the knight are two different existences. They only have the same starting point, and he is an ideal that the boy dreamed off." In other words, since Archer became a heroic spirit, he exists outside the flow of time and its paradoxes. Even if Shirou at the end of Heavens Feel can no longer become a hero, Archer already exists. |
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2009-03-13, 06:51 | Link #1167 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
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2009-03-13, 18:31 | Link #1169 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Argentina
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The video of the ending available in youtube is divided in 2 parts, but there seems to be some scenes missing at the beginning of the first one. Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending missing part:
First video Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending first video translation.:
Second video Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending second video translation:
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2009-03-13, 23:21 | Link #1170 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
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So much interesting introspection, I'm impressed with the author. Thanks again man, this was great info.
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2009-03-15, 01:18 | Link #1171 |
Black Lagoon Social Club
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: North Carolina
Age: 39
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Well, I have beaten all three routes in F/SN (Haven't done the 'Good/Normal' ends yet) and I must say, after UBW and HF Lancer and Rider are now my favorite servants. This game was amazing, it was like reading an actual book (well, it is a book in a way). UBW is my fav ending so far. I have the feeling I'll love F/HA if it ever get's translated.
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2009-03-15, 13:22 | Link #1172 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Rin also mentions in HF true ending that with training, Shirou should be able to use his reality marble. Though it's unclear how serious she was, since it was in an internal monologue that was part of a gag.. |
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2009-03-15, 14:51 | Link #1173 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Actually, was this why he couldn't use it in HF? Because he was trying to use Archer's and it wouldn't work because they're too different? |
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2009-03-15, 21:45 | Link #1174 | |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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As far as Shirou's magic circuit goes, I reread the ending to HF. Shirou's magic is still in his body, albeit weak and his ability to use magic less than it was before. It does say he can use magic somewhat and he could possibly by able to use his Reality Marble. His magic circuit got overloaded initially and completely destroyed, but due to the effects of the Third Sorcery, his soul regenerated his body in the puppet to its original point. It does however say that he does have problems from time to time because of the doll body as well, though. |
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2009-03-24, 10:11 | Link #1175 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Really people, the game ITSELF says that HF True is the True Ending in Tiger Dojo 39.
And ataraxia means nothing here, it's stated that ataraxia it's not a real sequel, it's a fandisc. And even so, multiple routes never stopped Kinoko into writing outcomes to some of they, as Yoimachi Kanwa to Akiha True, or Melty Blood to Satsuki Normal (a unreleased route, nevertheless). Nasuverse is a multi-canon universe. And the "Heavens Feel doesn't even end in a true happy ending" it's stupid too, as in the final Onsen Dojo they clearly states that they "will get happy as they can get". Last edited by sento; 2009-03-24 at 10:35. |
2009-03-24, 23:50 | Link #1176 |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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why is it the true ending to f/sn? simply because you can't get to it without clearing the other routes.
what does the tiger dojo say about the game? the Fate route and UBW route ask the question of how Shirou should live his life. One of the answers to this question is heavens feel. it specifically says "one of the answers" meaning that there is any number of answers. the only reason why heavens feel is the true ending is because you've hit all the other endings. there is nothing more, as far as nasu wrote, about f/sn so it is the final final ending. i don't consider ataraxia at all when talking about f/sn. there are way too many inconsistencies with the main storyline that there is no way to see it instead of as a side-what if story, thus it being on a fandisc. |
2009-03-25, 00:12 | Link #1177 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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It's not just the "last ending you get", it's the True Ending to the entire damned game. That's what they're saying. (I will also note that, having seen KnK and having played a bit of Tsukihime, I think that HF is quite a bit more like Nasu's typical style than the other two routes, but whatever.) Quote:
And you're kinda ignoring the implications of what they're saying. Fate and UBW are the "Question". HF is an "Answer". Hence, True Ending. It's not the only ending possible, (obviously, as we have Fate and UBW as well) but it's the True Ending of the game. How I see it, anyway. |
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2009-03-26, 04:25 | Link #1178 | |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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With it being the only answer presented in the game, that is like me asking for a number larger than 5 and Nasu chose 8. That doesn't mean that 7 or 9 is wrong either, it is just that he chose 8 because he felt like choosing that one. Since I see it like that, I cannot accept that HF is the true ending just because it is the only one presented. It is simply the story that Nasu decided he wanted to present to us. TO ME, F/SN ended with the UBW ending, and the follow up, Heavens Feel, is just a possible ending that Nasu wrote not intending for it to be a true conclusion but a sample of an infinite number of conclusions. The game even says that HF is just an answer, but not the answer. Note that although I am saying UBW is seemingly the truer of the endings, this still is just an opinion founded by several things including Nasu's other works, the wording used in the game, the personality of Shirou, etc etc. And what do you mean after KnK? Did you read it? If anything, the ending to KnK has a lot more in common with the UBW ending. If you only watched Kara no Kyoukai, they are only through the first 5 movies. Although all the big action occurs in book 5 (movie 5) the actual ending is on the seventh installment. If you are reading it via Baka-Tsuki, they only have the first 4 translated with the 5th about 50% complete. Tsukihime's endings typically leave Shiki with living with the weight of his actions. Most of the time he is satisfied with the ending, satisfied, but not truly happy. The only "happy" ending I can think of is Kohaku's ending which is one of the final endings to the game (although what happens in the middle is nowhere near "happy"). The Good Endings to all the routes that have them seem way too optimistic and cheerful for it to be what Nasu intends, so I don't even consider them when discussing the endings. Despite that, Ciel's Good Ending is by far my favorite...I don't see it as a True Ending though. Although I did say earlier that HF doesn't end happily, it does give perhaps the brightest image, the happiest conclusion to the game. HF seems too much like a happy ending to be something Nasu would write or intend. (Just about) everyone is alive and well, the family is together at the end, things are bright and cheery...definitely not what I see when I see Nasu's writings. Fate/Zero, Tsukihime, Kara no Kyoukai, Angel Notes...all of them end with a dreary but satisfying ending. None of them are near as pleasing as the HF ending. Still waiting patiently for Mahou Tsukai and I'm trying to find a place where I can find his other works Kori no Hana and Decoration Disorder Disconnection. |
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2009-03-26, 07:40 | Link #1179 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Happy or "seemingly" Happy endings are typical in Kinoko Nasu's complete works (Notes isn't really a full work, even Kinoko said it's more a mini-story about something bigger).
- In Tsukihime, 3 True Endings are happy (as Yoimachi Kanwa to Akiha True is the continuation). And Ciel True and Kohaku's one are happy enough. And it's said that he wrote first Good Endings, but then Takeuchi said him that the True Endings will be more fitting here (as Tsukihime it's Kinoko's darkest work, Fate is far brighter). - Kara no Kyoukai = Absolute happy ending. And I don't see the "link" that you saw between UBW and Rakkyo aside from counter force (a thing that if you really are perceptive, is present in all Kinoko works in some way), because UBW is considered the route less Nasuverse related. - Fate/stay night. Saber ending isn't really supposed to be absolutely sad, as even they accept it without any tears and looking forward for their own paths. Rin's True End is a happy one. And Sakura's True End too. Fate/Zero is written by Urobuchi, a guy who didn't know how to write properly happy endings. Heck, he even wrote Fate/Zero with that in mind, calling Kinoko Nasu "the warrior of love". He said that he was looking for you, after the reading of Fate/Zero, run to your computer to find the happy ending that the characters deserve. And the wall of text saying about the true ending. I think that the picture I posted clear it all. Really, in that dojo they didn't say "the grand finale, the Heaven's Feel True Ending", they say "the grand finale, Fate/stay night True Ending". And that answer, even if it's one answer, its the same answer that Kiritsugu found in Fate/Zero, even if he realized it late. So it's the only answer we had. You can say that it's the whole point about Fate saga. Of course, it's not the only ending possible, but they clearly said that it's the true ending to the whole story. Last edited by sento; 2009-03-26 at 08:16. |
2009-03-26, 12:33 | Link #1180 |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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If anything, HF is the ending to the story supplied, but I refuse to believe it as the final ending. It does not fit with Nasu's writings.
The thing I see across Nasu's works a lot is the protagonist having to deal with, and accept, himself/herself for who/what they really are and it leaves them with an outlook on life where they confront their past/future/alternate self, and decide or plan on how to live their life based on that. Spoiler for Tsuki, Fate, KnK spoilers:
I will admit that Notes was listed as merely as a mini-story. It appeared as a doujin work within a compilation of other works so it cannot be seen as a full work. However, it does provide the basis for the Nasuverse albeit being set in a future setting more than 3000 yrs in the future from F/SN, Tsuki, KnK. In HF, Shirou realizes it at the end who Archer is but as to why Archer is there or what relation Archer has to himself, there is no recognition. Now this is contradictory to what I've been saying, but I do see the UBW ending as a happy ending. Everything is resolved, the Grail War was not intended to be completely resolved in UBW but just ended for the time being. Shirou knows his possible future and has Rin to keep him on a path away from that ending. Despite this being as happy as it is, I see this as being an ending to Fate. I don't see Fate as being a closed story, but rather an open-ended question. This is Shirou's life, this is his fate...how is he going to live his life from here on? Simply put, the paths of Fate and UBW put forth this question. There is no doubt, the game even states such. It also says that a possible ending is HF, that said it also says that it is the final ending to the Fate story. If you guys believe HF to be the only answer to the question, or the correct answer, that is on you to believe the wording however you want to. I'm just saying I don't believe it to be and there is no way you can convince me otherwise. I will admit it is a possible ending, a rather forced and really stretched ending, but an ending. I will not admit it as being the only ending nor the correct ending. Go ahead and provide whatever clues you may throw out, but as the story is written as it is, there are far too many inconsistencies and quirks to HF that is so unlike Nasu's other works that I will not believe it to be an ending he truly intended. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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