GATE - Light Novel Discussion

[Brother Coa]

Why would it not be possible?

It's not like world superpowers didn't overrun sovereign nations before to set their own goals ( US did this as well ). In realistic case they would ask UN via SC to act and press Japan to open the gate for UN mission. Japan refuses and let's go after few months of UN sanctions of food and fuel imports brings Japan economy to legs and it's overpopulation to starvation.

Because sovereignty does not matter if you have something that world superpower need ( Iraq and Ukraine are perfect example of this case ). And in GATE example Japan has something that China, USA and Russia wants. Giving how media works today to sway the population to their side and how much power this 3 countries have in UN and Security Council.... I don't see how Japan even has an option to refuse UN peacekeeping mission. Especially later after gate collapses and returns, begging much more pressure to Japan to open gate to world.

[Top Sergeant]

Not certain the US would go that far in the case of Japan, as its a US ally nation, unlike Iraq, etc. Public opinion has a lot more political influence in the US than in mainland China and Russia.

In any case it might be interesting to see expeditionary parties from other nations in the Special Area, but I think I'm happier to leave things as-is. General Hazama and Lt. Itami hve been doing very well, no point in messing with success.

[The 48th Ronin]

Originally Posted by aohige

Not sure, we have no earthly idea on how magic works or what can affect a rip in dimension.

Later on around book 4, you will see Earth scientists enter the Special District and make many observations about the universe though.

Looks like they need to revisit those theories of alternate universes.

[RDNexus]

I think I remember reading that WN Yao was as much of an antagonist as WN Pina.
How so? What got changed of herself and her backstory and role in the main story?

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Not certain the US would go that far in the case of Japan, as its a US ally nation, unlike Iraq, etc. Public opinion has a lot more political influence in the US than in mainland China and Russia.

In any case it might be interesting to see expeditionary parties from other nations in the Special Area, but I think I'm happier to leave things as-is. General Hazama and Lt. Itami hve been doing very well, no point in messing with success.

This only applies so far as Japan gives US what it wants.
From what i read (in the manga) Japan was effectively stonewalling rest of the world, and that would not work.
And the ally status comes into question when you try to monopolize something as ground breaking as the gate.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by J4n1

This only applies so far as Japan gives US what it wants.

I don't think that is the case. Otherwise there would have been conflict when the Japanese car industry grabbed such a huge share of the American market in the '70s. Also there are Sony and many other Japanese companies with large shares of the US market. The US always needs a cassus belli, however thin, and I'm not seeing one in the Gate storyline.

[Brother Coa]

Well there is a difference between shares of economy and whole new world that you can exploit for resources and make even bigger economy. I think that new colony world, full of natural resources is worth running over your own ally if he gets in your way.
And do not worry about shares, I am sure China and Russia will back up US economy for percentage of new colony world

I live this show but it bothers me how world superpowers backed off because of 'Japan is awesome' power. That would never work in reality.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I live this show but it bothers me how world superpowers backed off because of 'Japan is awesome' power.

Have you been watching a faulty sub, or what? The only time this series has drifted remotely into "Japan is awesome" territory was at the onsen when the covert JDSF Special Forces teams were picking off the foreign SF team members without even giving them a chance to shoot back, before POTUS blackmailed the JP PM into calling them off. And that was more due to overwhelming tactical advantage on the JSDF's part, and overconfidence and lack of preparation on the other countries' parts, than anything else.

It's stated in the manga that there's effectively no chance of the US focusing any of its martial resources on the Special Region issue because they are drawn too thin due to Middle East entanglements, and because of a perception (true or not) that Japan will eventually deal them in anyway, due to the good relationship that the two countries share (even if some in both governments feel otherwise) and the useful assistance that the US can provide. Neither Russia or China are going to make any overt moves on the SR, because despite what you seem to think, superpowers don't just get to invade the capitals of first world powers on a whim and get away with it. There has to be some legitimate reason (weapons treaty violations, human rights atrocities, etc.), or it at least has to be a country that no one particularly cares about. If Russia or China did invade, they'd have basically the rest of the world stepping in to slap them back down and Japan being very thankful for the help, effectively ensuring that whoever invades becomes the only country that wouldn't have access to the SR.

[RDNexus]

Originally Posted by xrick

I think I remember reading that WN Yao was as much of an antagonist as WN Pina.
How so? What got changed of herself and her backstory and role in the main story?

Is nobody here capable of answering this question of mine?

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Have you been watching a faulty sub, or what? The only time this series has drifted remotely into "Japan is awesome" territory was at the onsen when the covert JDSF Special Forces teams were picking off the foreign SF team members without even giving them a chance to shoot back, before POTUS blackmailed the JP PM into calling them off. And that was more due to overwhelming tactical advantage on the JSDF's part, and overconfidence and lack of preparation on the other countries' parts, than anything else.

It's stated in the manga that there's effectively no chance of the US focusing any of its martial resources on the Special Region issue because they are drawn too thin due to Middle East entanglements, and because of a perception (true or not) that Japan will eventually deal them in anyway, due to the good relationship that the two countries share (even if some in both governments feel otherwise) and the useful assistance that the US can provide. Neither Russia or China are going to make any overt moves on the SR, because despite what you seem to think, superpowers don't just get to invade the capitals of first world powers on a whim and get away with it. There has to be some legitimate reason (weapons treaty violations, human rights atrocities, etc.), or it at least has to be a country that no one particularly cares about. If Russia or China did invade, they'd have basically the rest of the world stepping in to slap them back down and Japan being very thankful for the help, effectively ensuring that whoever invades becomes the only country that wouldn't have access to the SR.

Thanks for summarizing events regarding this and yes I know all of them plus the reasons. I still find that hard to believe...

-US drawn too thin around the world?
With their military budget, economy and population ( 300 million ) they could assemble at least 1 million strong army, fully equipped in a month for crisis situations. Ready to deploy anywhere on the globe.

-Japan first world power?
Economically maybe among first 5 but as far as military goes not so much... Plus their economy highly depends on import. Isolate them and see them crumble.

-"superpowers don't just get to invade the capitals of first world powers on a whim and get away with it"

Ukraine, Iraq, Lybia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea ( certainly, not all capitals but countries non-the-less ).... do I need to continue?

And yes while this is true I don't see why world superpowers don't sit down and agree to split SR between themselves, leaving Japan pout of it?
Plus manga also states that in case that UN asks for military mission they would have no choice but to comply. Giving all 3 superpowers influence on the UN and UN Security Council I fail to see why is this not yet done in storyline?

'Japan is awesome' in a way that story is written that way that they easily outmaneuver Russia, China and even US from gaining access ( even limited ) to the gate. Something that would in real world not be possible at all.

[xShARkx]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Thanks for summarizing events regarding this and yes I know all of them plus the reasons. I still find that hard to believe...

-US drawn too thin around the world?
With their military budget, economy and population ( 300 million ) they could assemble at least 1 million strong army, fully equipped in a month for crisis situations. Ready to deploy anywhere on the globe.

-Japan first world power?
Economically maybe among first 5 but as far as military goes not so much... Plus their economy highly depends on import. Isolate them and see them crumble.

-"superpowers don't just get to invade the capitals of first world powers on a whim and get away with it"

Ukraine, Iraq, Lybia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea ( certainly, not all capitals but countries non-the-less ).... do I need to continue?

And yes while this is true I don't see why world superpowers don't sit down and agree to split SR between themselves, leaving Japan pout of it?
Plus manga also states that in case that UN asks for military mission they would have no choice but to comply. Giving all 3 superpowers influence on the UN and UN Security Council I fail to see why is this not yet done in storyline?

'Japan is awesome' in a way that story is written that way that they easily outmaneuver Russia, China and even US from gaining access ( even limited ) to the gate. Something that would in real world not be possible at all.

Just a few comments:

--US drawn too thin around the world?
With their military budget, economy and population ( 300 million ) they could assemble at least 1 million strong army, fully equipped in a month for crisis situations. Ready to deploy anywhere on the globe.--

I guess they can, but that does not change the fact the US forces are spread all over the world since they basically made themselves "the police of the world".


--Japan first world power?
Economically maybe among first 5 but as far as military goes not so much...--

Japan is ranked 9º in the GFP(Global fire power) index, so yes they have a pretty strong military power - http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...untry_id=Japan


--Plus their economy highly depends on import. Isolate them and see them crumble--

Japan also export a lot, about 30 to 40% in the cars on the US are Japanese(of course not all of those are from the exporting but even so).

About the Isolation of Japan that you mentioned -> Any country in today's world can't survive alone! No country in the world has everything that we use on our modern world and that includes the US, all country's need to import something!!!!


--"superpowers don't just get to invade the capitals of first world powers on a whim and get away with it"

Ukraine, Iraq, Lybia, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea ( certainly, not all capitals but countries non-the-less ).... do I need to continue?

And yes while this is true I don't see why world superpowers don't sit down and agree to split SR between themselves, leaving Japan pout of it?--

Like i said above japan have a strong military and not only that but they are one of the closest if not the closest ally of the US.

Japan and the US have a treaty and the treaty is that "If someone or some country attacks Japan, the US has to Defend it and if the same thing happens to the US, Japan has to defend it to"

Here is some info's about it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ja...0RV3L620151001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-AA6l0prQ

Recently China has been messing with japan, so the US send a fleet including an nuclear aircraft carrier to defend Japan and also autorize the use of nuclear weapons if china did not back off, i had i link of a news and a video showing this but I've lost them.

Japan also holds the bigger military base and contingent of US forces outside the US itself. Almost 40.000(if not more) US military are stationed on japan right now.



--Plus manga also states that in case that UN asks for military mission they would have no choice but to comply. Giving all 3 superpowers influence on the UN and UN Security Council I fail to see why is this not yet done in storyline?--

Even if China and Russia asks the UN to get access to the gate, they would not get it because the US would not allow it, even if there was a voting and even if China and Russia vote in favor about getting access to the gate, the US would vote against it and it would be enough for the UN to deny the request. The US basically owns the UN. The US would vote against it because japan is a very close ally of the US and they know that eventually them will harvest the benefits of the Gate but China and Russia will not.


--'Japan is awesome' in a way that story is written that way that they easily outmaneuver Russia, China and even US from gaining access ( even limited ) to the gate. Something that would in real world not be possible at all.--

What i understand is that japan only outmaneuver the US when they played that political card, the US knew all along that eventually they would harvest the benefits of the Gate, only the president of the US was without patience to wait until they do!

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Well there is a difference between shares of economy and whole new world that you can exploit for resources and make even bigger economy. I think that new colony world, full of natural resources is worth running over your own ally if he gets in your way.
And do not worry about shares, I am sure China and Russia will back up US economy for percentage of new colony world

I see where you're coming from but I just disagree. The US cannot launch any major military action these days without a clear threat to the nation, and the Empire is entirely incapable of threatening the US. Present day Russia probably wouldn't either. China might; I just never know with them, and my experience with that country is limited.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

-US drawn too thin around the world?
With their military budget, economy and population ( 300 million ) they could assemble at least 1 million strong army, fully equipped in a month for crisis situations. Ready to deploy anywhere on the globe.
.

Yeah, believe it! The budget might be big but too much of the equipment is both very expensive to buy as well as maintain. "Simple & Effective" is desired by the troops but rarely gets authorized by Congress.

The number of actual front line Army troops on Active Duty is shockingly small; that's why the National Guard has been mobilized (the Guard is mostly combat formations) for duty in Afghanistan and Iraq. For a few years they were even in charge of all US Army forces in the Balkans.

As for your one month estimate, no way. Minimum six months, more likely a year to raise the Army to 1 million. Bases would need to be reopened, uniforms made, equipment and weapons ordered and made, and then training, force organization as units are reactivated from mothballs, and then internal fights between the West Point ring-knockers on who gets to command which units, the National Guard would have to be mobilized to get the million force level and there would be turf fights at the highest levels to keep NG officers in charge of their units and not be replaced by Regular Army. And if Congress and / or the Executive Branch insist on micromanaging the force build-up that would slow things down even more.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Yeah, believe it! The budget might be big but too much of the equipment is both very expensive to buy as well as maintain. "Simple & Effective" is desired by the troops but rarely gets authorized by Congress.

The number of actual front line Army troops on Active Duty is shockingly small; that's why the National Guard has been mobilized (the Guard is mostly combat formations) for duty in Afghanistan and Iraq. For a few years they were even in charge of all US Army forces in the Balkans.

As for your one month estimate, no way. Minimum six months, more likely a year to raise the Army to 1 million. Bases would need to be reopened, uniforms made, equipment and weapons ordered and made, and then training, force organization as units are reactivated from mothballs, and then internal fights between the West Point ring-knockers on who gets to command which units, the National Guard would have to be mobilized to get the million force level and there would be turf fights at the highest levels to keep NG officers in charge of their units and not be replaced by Regular Army. And if Congress and / or the Executive Branch insist on micromanaging the force build-up that would slow things down even more.

The US military is entirely volunteer at this point. In order to reach a million strong, the government would have to institute a draft, and they'd have to have a very, very good reason to do that, or else heads would be rolling in Washington come the next voting cycle. The US didn't even institute a draft when it formed the Iraqi invasion force, at the height of US nationalism and enmity toward Islamic terrorism. No way they'd do it for an unprovoked invasion of one of their closest allies and trading partners. The POTUS doesn't have the power to do that on a whim (no matter how nice his pen or phone is). He would have to declare war with Japan, and there's no way the approval for that would get past Congress. I don't care how many special interests were in favor, there'd be rioting in the streets that would make Occupy, BLM, and the Tea Party look like a Sunday School class.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Ukraine

Russia didn't "officially" invade Ukraine. They "came to the assistance of ethnic Russian Ukrainian separatists who wished to secede/join the Russian Federation". At least that was the original story. At this point Russia has the EU by the balls economically due to fossil fuel exports, to the point that it's in other countries' best interests to concern themselves with something else. Ukraine is probably the only country on this list that even approaches first world status, by the way (at least at time of invasion). Less geopolitically important countries just don't quite have the pull to call in help.

Back to the world of GATE, Russia or China wouldn't risk doing anything similar in Japan to gain access to the Gate, for the reasons I stated in my previous post.
And even if it were politically viable, the US doesn't have to, because it's far less trouble just to wait for the Japanese to invite them in.

Iraq

At the time of invasion, Iraq was currently in violation of UN WMD treaties (via its treatment of inspectors, irrespective of whether they actually had any at the time or not), and the US invaded as part of a coalition force. They also had broad voter and political support.

Speaking for the US, they might be able to convince the UN to put sanctions on Japan for "not sharing" or make up some human rights violations (though that Diet meeting probably killed that option), but there'd never be any voter approval behind invading for such an obviously artificial reason. Even if it could be made to look believable, the last couple of decades have soured the US populace on the whole "UN peacekeeping thing". It's why we're not invading ISIS.

Lybia

Not sure which superpower you're suggesting invaded Libya. To my knowledge, the last time a superpower did so was during WWII. The US has bombed the crap out of them a few times since, and there were limited coalition ground forces (specialists, not infantry) helping the revolutionaries who overthrew Qaddafi. The vast majority of those forces were not US troops, since Obama could not get Congress to authorize much more than bombs, military advisers, and diplomatic protection.

Afghanistan

See Iraq, only substitute Saddam Hussein with the Taliban and WMDs with Osama Bin Laden.

Vietnam

Not an invasion. US (and other anti-Communist countries) siding with South Vietnam in a civil war against Communist-backed North Vietnam. No "air quotes" here, unlike in Ukraine. It was pretty straightforward.

Korea

Same as Vietnam.

And keep in mind that Japan's actions in GATE are in reaction to a bloody invasion that was very visible, and killed a lot of civilians. In the wake of that, no one in a civilized country who doesn't have a personal interest is going to be in favor of doing basically the same thing to the same citizens either for rumored human rights violations against that aforementioned invading force, or for a transparent resources grab.

[Brother Coa]

Thanks guys, you make some very astonishing points.

Still this only raise more questions.

-If Japan is ally of the US and US is ally of Japan then how is Japan capable to refuse US to allow it access to the gate if they are allies who must help themselves in any kind of situation?

-If USA is widespread and China and Russia also must be calm then why UN peacekeeping mission was not approved by the UN? Entire show acts like this is solely Japan's affair and world is not interested in that.

-While I agree that there would be riots everywhere the media that exists today pretty much holds population in check with their propaganda. And if guigonkenny's post proved anything that's that US can think of an excuse to invade any country it wants and get massive support for it.

-To op Sergeant's post about military rise in the US - US also have big number of war veterans and troops in reserves. They also have bases and stockpiles all around the US. This was made for the Cold War and it is still in effect today, so that USA can rise a big army anywhere in the country in case of foreign invasion. So yeah, the biggest problem would be transportation and logistics but they can get 1 million strong army whenever they want.

-And why everyone thinks that superpowers cannot unite again if they have some common interest? Russia, China and USA were all allies during WW2 even if their ideologies were pretty much the same back then - they still unite to overcome common threat. In GATE's case they can get support to press Japan to open GATE for the rest of the world.

My point is that in real world there is no way world would leave the GATE alone to Japan just because Japan does not feel like sharing. Especially the big 3, not only because of exploits from the new world but also because of fear what can come out of the GATE again and wreck the world ( Japan as strong as it is still lack behind any of the 3 supoerpowers military strenght ). That two fan fictions with US ( in one ) and UN ( in second ) going trough the GATE together with JSDF sounds way more plausible than the main storyline.

[J4n1]

It is perfectly believable that US would not send (many) troops through the gate.
It is not believable that US would not send plenty of observers (military and civilian) through the gate.
It is utterly preposterous that Japan would be allowed to keep control of the gate and deny access to other nations without some heavy economical sanctions coming into play.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by J4n1

It is utterly preposterous that Japan would be allowed to keep control of the gate and deny access to other nations without some heavy economical sanctions coming into play.

Why do you think that? What made you think it is fine to violate Japanese sovereignty?

Would you let foreign troops enter your Capital without compensation?

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Why do you think that? What made you think it is fine to violate Japanese sovereignty?

Would you let foreign troops enter your Capital without compensation?

What has it being fine or not have to do with this?

If the capital of my nation had suddenly a stable gate to a different world appear in the middle of it.
I so fucking would expect other nations demand, and get, a piece of the pie.
It has nothing to do if it is right or wrong, and everything to do with the fact that my nation is not a regional power the size of USA or Russia.
And leaving scientific revelation of this size in the hands of one nation is wrong in my opinion.

I would not expect military invasion (ok, i would, because we share rather long border with Russia), but military and diplomatic observers, not to mention enough scientific personel to fill a small city, yeah that would be pretty much expected.

[RDNexus]

I'd like to ask again if anyone could answer my previous questions...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by J4n1

What has it being fine or not have to do with this?

If the capital of my nation had suddenly a stable gate to a different world appear in the middle of it.
I so fucking would expect other nations demand, and get, a piece of the pie.
It has nothing to do if it is right or wrong, and everything to do with the fact that my nation is not a regional power the size of USA or Russia.
And leaving scientific revelation of this size in the hands of one nation is wrong in my opinion.

I would not expect military invasion (ok, i would, because we share rather long border with Russia), but military and diplomatic observers, not to mention enough scientific personel to fill a small city, yeah that would be pretty much expected.

If that's why you think, then Japan has even more reason to defend the Gate against foreigners. Because by that argument Japan has no right to exist. Thus if I was in their position I would lock down the boarders entirely because there wouldn't be any trade; everyone else are literal enemies who just want to steal and rob from me.

It is kind of ironic really; the only reason Imperial Japan invaded China and SE Asia was for oil and resources. And here you are saying it is entirely fine to invade and steal as long as the resources are valuable enough.