Nanoha Manga Discussion

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

being wondering a bit, why did lulu get exile to a penal colony? A very comfortable place and her mother is with her but still. Isn't the TSAB's motto, "grab them while they are young" and "beat them and recruit them"?

Well, I think her involvement with the JS Incident plus her youth plus the presense of a legal parent made for it. Fate and Hayate were orphans (well, Fate had Lindy... who let her own son serve as her thug, moot point) and they wanted to make good for their respective crimes, so they enlisted in the TSAB. Lutecia is an underage criminal, who so far expressed no desire to work for the Bureau (as far as we know). Plus, her mother might have applied a veto right, considering what happened to herself in the line of duty.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

You know what I'd like to see? A manga series dedicated to the rehabilitation of the reformed Numbers. SSX says the new Nakajima sisters have their own sub-unit called N2R or something like that, but how'd they get to the point where they're trusted to operate independently? There's a story behind that, and I'd like to hear it.

I've postulated quite a while ago that we need several series focusing on individual groups like the Numbers, the Forwards, the Aces, the Wolkies, etc. But I am afraid Tsuzuki just doesn't have the time/energy for all of them now.

Go Expanded Universe!

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

EDIT: By the way, the title of FORCE 010 will be "Solitude", you can see it here on the last scan.

Loneliness is a recurring theme in the Nanoha franchise. Usually precipitates someone being befriended to dust.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Loneliness is a recurring theme in the Nanoha franchise. Usually precipitates someone being befriended to dust.

Apparently Tohma will be wandering alone for some time possibly leaving Isis and Lily under the care of the TSAB wich enables Hayate and the heroes to know about the boy's problems and finally stops to treating him like a genocide criminal, sadly there's also the posibility that after his last "Dividing" they gonna treat him lika a walking natural disaster.

Humanoid Typhoon anyone xD?

EDIT: Curiously i find that Tohma and Veyron's Dividers design are simillar to Haken Browning's Night Fowl from Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier. It would be cool to see one of them showing cool swing-and-shoot attacks or revealing a "beam ray" attack from the inside of the gun.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

being wondering a bit, why did lulu get exile to a penal colony? A very comfortable place and her mother is with her but still. Isn't the TSAB's motto, "grab them while they are young" and "beat them and recruit them"?

1. It's not penal colony. It's newly colonized world.
2. Oh, you know, she WAS recruited. In colonization department. I don't remember where, probably her character card - but it even say so in canon.

PS. And certainly 3 - it's Lutecia's choice - to live with her mother.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

A slice of Vivio's life includes fighting!

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

It's just slices of some rather abnormal lives (by our standards). As long as it's still just their day-to-day lives, I think it qualifies.

I'm more inclined towards slice-of "magic knights in training" life

On a mostly random note, I find myself wanting to see Einhart's parents (assuming they exist...). I'm curious as to how one raises a daughter who has real memories of life as (male!) royalty in the middle of a war some hundreds of years ago, and all the pain that comes with that.

I'm curious too, but since the story seems to make Nove as her surrogate mother/sister, the probability of them appearing is almost the same as Alicia's father

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

being wondering a bit, why did lulu get exile to a penal colony? A very comfortable place and her mother is with her but still. Isn't the TSAB's motto, "grab them while they are young" and "beat them and recruit them"?

You make it sound like the TSAB have a Janissary program or something

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

I've postulated quite a while ago that we need several series focusing on individual groups like the Numbers, the Forwards, the Aces, the Wolkies, etc. But I am afraid Tsuzuki just doesn't have the time/energy for all of them now.

I'm especially interested in a Reformed Numbers(I forgot the name, N2R or something) story, since just about everyone else on the list has their moment of spotlight before...

Go Expanded Universe!

Oh God, anything but that ...for every decent official EU product, there's at least 5 official shitty ones

Loneliness is a recurring theme in the Nanoha franchise. Usually precipitates someone being befriended to dust.

One day Shari will finally see the pattern and patents a befriending machine . They'll give her a Nobel prize (or the TSAB equivalent) of world interdimensional peace for it!!!

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Oh God, anything but that ...for every decent official EU product, there's at least 5 official shitty ones

It's better to filter out the 90% of crap than wait in vain for the main author to listen to a minority of fans. *shrugs*

[FRS]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

...

You make it sound like the TSAB have a Janissary program or something
...

They do employ underaged children in their rank without blinking

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Evil Rick

Looks like everyone is either misunderstanding me or didn't read my whole review, I don't think Vivid it's bad because it lacks a deep story or action scenes more intense, nah, that's just matter of preferences, I think it's bad because every damn chapter they repeat the same thing and don't progress the story in any sense (because even a lighten, fluffy story needs a progress). Every chapter you'll see the half-naked lolis, every chapter will be filled of Ein's toughs of being stronger, every chapter will be filled with the same mock battles, every chapter will be filled with loooong dialogues of attacks explanations. I mean, seriously, 4 chapters for 1 single mock battle that ends in a most ridiculous draw?

To resume, Vivid it's bad because it's repetitive, because it's cliched and because is a mere fanservice manga.

I don't see why light fluffy manga's need rapid development. That kinds goes against the light part of it. It's the very core of light and fluffy manga's that they float along, and most of their development comes from revealing new facets of the characters lives, which Vivid has been doing flawlessly so far. Even the battle revealed details like Corona's golem creation magic. A magic that Vivid shows for the first time in the franchise I might add.

The cliche argument is, ironically, cliched. You can pick almost any show, manga, movie or book these days and call it cliched. So far I don't see much in Vivid that's so blatantly cliche it warrants the term. I don't see the repetitive part bar in Einhart, but that's more keeping her in character. It'd be out of character for her suddenly not to worry about that.

As for it being a fanservice manga... well yeah, it is. But that doesn't make it bad anymore than being a fanservice manga makes Negima bad.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I don't hate Vivid, and indeed, it has some redeeming qualities. But you should be aware that Nanoha and Fate have limiters on them, so power level is playing a role there. :P

I have to disagree with you about StrikerS being weak in terms of political machinations. That Jail was used as a way to get around the Bureau's rules, that he employed tactics and gained some victories over more powerful forces, showcases a good deal of planning. With Force, we're still left guessing about the larger ramifications; this is good. If you can't predict where the story is going, then it's a good plot. It means you have to keep watching.

Vivid is predictable and simplistic, but that isn't a bad thing, either. Pretty much, I like all the Nanoha seasons and stories for various reasons; they all have good points. Heh, looking at this thread lately, I have to wonder if I'm the only one who feels this way, or whether I have to hate something to be cool. ;p

I agree that Jail is very smart and tactical and strategical savvy, and the creator did put in some good strategies and tactics when Jail strike. But I think StrikerS is the only anime that the bad guy's faction is significantly weaker than the good guy. (If the numbers+ Zest+ Akito+ Jail+Vivio+ brainwashed Ginga vs everyone else in mobile 6, mobile 6 don't even need to be at their best to beat everyone up). (Actually, Jail never think he can beat mobile 6, all he needs is to stall enough time to get the cradle up) That is what I refer to weak political/tactical/ strategical. When the bad guys are using brain and good guys using brawl, there is something wrong in the story.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by al103

PS. And certainly 3 - it's Lutecia's choice - to live with her mother.

I think this one is the key here. So far we've seen all kids join the bureau, and all of them were willing. But that doesn't mean everyone wants to join. After her mother woke up, Lutecia likely told the bureau recruiters "I'll pass" and chose to live peacefully with her mother instead, becoming a history buff with a passion for Device designing and architecture.

This also shows that the bureau really can't -and won't- force anyone to join when someone says no.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Yep, she gets horribly curbstomped(in fact she receives the bloodiest worfing this franchise have seen so far) for the sake of a chessy boost on the drama.

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Seems you guys conveniently forget about how Signum, like, exploded Cypha's arm off? We've already established that it wasn't worphing, but it wasn't a curbstomp either. A curbstomp is completely onesided, where as with Signum and Cypha's fight, Signum was winning first, then Cypha turned it around. If anything, it was a (oh my god) double curbstomp!

[Amaterasu1963]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I think this one is the key here. So far we've seen all kids join the bureau, and all of them were willing. But that doesn't mean everyone wants to join. After her mother woke up, Lutecia likely told the bureau recruiters "I'll pass" and chose to live peacefully with her mother instead, becoming a history buff with a passion for Device designing and architecture.

This also shows that the bureau really can't -and won't- force anyone to join when someone says no.

Acctually, no. It was in the sound stage where Erio and Caro visited her in the rehab center. She says it was her mother's decision.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Amaterasu1963

Acctually, no. It was in the sound stage where Erio and Caro visited her in the rehab center. She says it was her mother's decision.

Gotta re-listen those sound stages one of these days. Anyhoo, that still means not every kid that shows some powerful magic automatically gets pulled into the bureau.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Seems you guys conveniently forget about how Signum, like, exploded Cypha's arm off? We've already established that it wasn't worphing, but it wasn't a curbstomp either. A curbstomp is completely onesided, where as with Signum and Cypha's fight, Signum was winning first, then Cypha turned it around. If anything, it was a (oh my god) double curbstomp!

I disagree here. Yes, Signum cut Cypha's arm off, but the only reason for that was to show Cypha's badass regeneration skills, which technically makes it a part of the worfing. If Signum's attacks made any lasting damage, then I would agree and say that Signum wasn't worfed. As it stands though, she was.

That being said, I don't see the problem with Signum being worfed. Or anyone being worfed, for that matter. It's a simple plot-carrier that tells us how badass the enemy is, and the Nanoha franchise is hardly a stranger to the Worf-Effect to begin with. Nanoha, Fate and Chrono in A's, Shamal and Zafira in StrikerS and now Signum in Force.

[00-Raiser]

We've been over this before. To be 'worfed' it has to happen over and over again, not just once. And the beating is always really quick. Every instance in Nanoha has the defeated party put up a fight before hand.

[Nanya01]

I've... Held my peace on this for a long time, but I *NEED* to say it now...

That last chapter of Force... I feel... Extremely let down.

No, seriously... We got set up to have an awesome showdown between both groups, the fight was going on...

Then "Touma's mad, everyone dies".

It... No, seriously, I've NEVER felt so disappointed in this series before. At all.

I am not really looking forward to the next chapter of Force, to be honest.

[Kaijo]

Heh, there is something in particular that amuses me. Since no series is going to make 100% of the people happy, and indeed, there will always be someone who hates on it... if we cancelled every series that someone hated, we'd have nothing. :P

I guess that's why I don't hate on anything really anymore. I may dislike aspects, or some shows I won't watch, but there is plenty of stuff out there for me to watch and enjoy. So why focus on the negative, when I can focus on the positive?

Originally Posted by fukarming

I agree that Jail is very smart and tactical and strategical savvy, and the creator did put in some good strategies and tactics when Jail strike. But I think StrikerS is the only anime that the bad guy's faction is significantly weaker than the good guy. (If the numbers+ Zest+ Akito+ Jail+Vivio+ brainwashed Ginga vs everyone else in mobile 6, mobile 6 don't even need to be at their best to beat everyone up). (Actually, Jail never think he can beat mobile 6, all he needs is to stall enough time to get the cradle up) That is what I refer to weak political/tactical/ strategical. When the bad guys are using brain and good guys using brawl, there is something wrong in the story.

As opposed to S1 and A's, where both sides were using the "brawl"? Like it or not, StrikerS took a different route. Hell, we heard earlier about people hated the divider magic-nullification. But they already did two seasons of antagonists being stronger magically, with the heroes working to catch up (Fate was better, and then the Wolkenritter were stronger due to cartridges).

And don't make it sound like Riot Force 6 was stupid; they used tactics quite often in deploying their forces to meet incoming threats. It's one of the major reasons they beat back all the bad guys at the end, because they strong *and* smart. Hell, Teana's fight represents it on a microcosm level.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

I've... Held my peace on this for a long time, but I *NEED* to say it now...

That last chapter of Force... I feel... Extremely let down.

No, seriously... We got set up to have an awesome showdown between both groups, the fight was going on...

Then "Touma's mad, everyone dies".

It... No, seriously, I've NEVER felt so disappointed in this series before. At all.

I am not really looking forward to the next chapter of Force, to be honest.

Eh, that's understandable. I think it was made worse by the chapter being split into two. If the first half didn't end at that face off, our expectations would have probably been lower.

In the long run I think it's better, though. We don't want to get all the big showdowns out of the way too soon.

[Akiyoshi]

About Tohma's "emo-shockwave" it's hardly surprising considering how FORCE is handling things, but at least the fight is not all that wasted, they show interesting bits(like Subaru's Sword breaker living up to it's name and Veyron blocking Revolver Knuckle before being blasted by Erio, also Devilles Giant Axe cracking the boy's Strike Cannon, not much of an Anti-Eclipse melee weapon really xDU) before abruptly ending. This apparently serves two purposes: To stop the fight before a clear victor arises(wich i find a good move because is too soon to see the Huckies defeated and we don't want to see another hero on the Surgery Room) and to stablish Tohma as a woobie destroyer of worlds, i mean, to show that he really is the most powerfull of the Eclipse Drivers but is tortured by having said power. The promotional images foreshadow a duel between Tohma and Nanoha wich will be interesting since obviously Tsuzuki would need to throw some thick plot armor that prevents Divide Zero from pwning Nanoha and let her do an awesome fight with her Fortress Mode(also to let Tohma to put his cool weapons and armour on good use, you know other than "One Hit KO-ing" everyone xDU).

About FORCE 007 it was worfing because even if it's the first time it only have the purpouse of showing how threatening the new bad guys are, and even if Signum showed to be very capable of handling Cypha, once she show her "Game Breaker" weapon, all ends in one hit(well, three if you really want to be specific). If worfing is unsuitable maybe is only a case of Signum having the Flu.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

About FORCE 007 it was worfing because even if it's the first time it only have the purpouse of showing how threatening the new bad guys are, and even if Signum showed to be very capable of handling Cypha, once she show her "Game Breaker" weapon, all ends in one hit(well, three if you really want to be specific). If worfing is unsuitable maybe is only a case of Signum having the Flu.

You seem to forget that the whole point of that fight was to show how powerful the Hucks are by showcasing Cypha's abilities, so Signum was basically screwed right from the very beginning. Yes, you could say she was worfed, but you also have to keep in mind that up until Cypha pulled out her cheat code she and Signum were on decently equal footing in terms of power. If anything, I'd say Signum had a slight one-up over Cypha because of Agito.

And, well, I mean... it's one of the first major fights against the bad guys. What did you expect? For Signum to win? In season one Nanoha was beaten by Fate, and in A's Vita practically made it a sport to kick Nanoha's ass. MGLN kind of has a running theme of taking out their established powerhouses to show how dangerous a new threat is.

Though really, Fate vs Nanoha first fight is debatable on that merit because Nanoha wasn't very experienced at the time, but it still kind of counts.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

About FORCE 007 it was worfing because even if it's the first time it only have the purpouse of showing how threatening the new bad guys are, and even if Signum showed to be very capable of handling Cypha, once she show her "Game Breaker" weapon, all ends in one hit(well, three if you really want to be specific). If worfing is unsuitable maybe is only a case of Signum having the Flu.

I'd say that's more suitable. Signum had a lot of factors against her, like being in a situation where she needed to de-unison and power down.

Anyways, call it worfing if you will, but it is one of the more acceptable instances of it. Remember the whole "show don't tell" thing? They showed what Eclipse infectees and Dividers are capable of, and it's clear they're a threat if Signum got taken out by it. What was the other alternative? Just have everyone go "Oh, the Eclipse is such a danger thing! It hardens the skin, give regeneration and negates magic!" and that's it? Instead we get to see first hand in action what they can do.

Which goes back to why the worf effect is so detested: the 'worf' in question often only has informed ability going for them. Other characters will go "Oh no! That badass got beaten! That means the enemy is even more of a badass!" The 'worf's' 'badassness' is never showed, and the constant defeats actually give the impression that the worf is just a weakling, not a badass.

In Signum's case, we've seen 2+ seasons of her doing badass things, and this is just one defeat, so I hardly think it gives the impression that she was never a bad ass ever.

[Justin_Brett]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I disagree here. Yes, Signum cut Cypha's arm off, but the only reason for that was to show Cypha's badass regeneration skills, which technically makes it a part of the worfing. If Signum's attacks made any lasting damage, then I would agree and say that Signum wasn't worfed. As it stands though, she was.

Well, yes, but this also had the unintended sideffect of showing that without those powers, there's absolutely no way Cypha would have won. Signum was outclassing her throughout the entire fight, and was only taken by surprise at the end.

As an attempt to show the new villains are total badasses, it falls short.