(L+CR) Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Comedy wa Machigatteiru. Zoku (Oregairu Season 2)

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

There's something that bothers me about the whole thing. He made everyone go through that stupid outing just so... what? He could tell the bitches Hachiman has cool friends? What does it help?

I mean, Hachiman isn't getting those hours of his life back. Neither is Hayato. And what have those girls learnt?

He did it mostly with Yukino in mind, since he was subservient to Haruno's plan but his telling off of Orimoto was for the purpose of serving Hikki's medicine to him. Didn't really matter how the girls would react regardless of Hayama being blunt since Yukino would have been led there regardless for Haruno to egg her on. Much like Sagami, Orimoto and her friend were just the necessary excuses to hook Hikki in.

Needlessly elaborate set-up but I think it just shows abit more Haruno's willingness of going the extra mile just to motivate Yukino.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Aside from the "all the outsiders" bit, that actually sounds kind of plausible.



Are you sure Haruno was there to try to crush Kaori? If she'd seen everything that happened during the double date this episode I could maybe understand, as Kaori went a bit far there (though frankly it doesn't seem particularly worse than some of the times one of my friends has drawn attention to my screw ups/faux pas). But the stuff she saw in the doughnut shop last episode just seemed like Kaori ribbing Hachiman about his past behaviour thinking that he'd already moved on the way she had. I actually got the impression that was one of the key points of that scene -that Kaori had moved on and could joke about the past (made it part of her youth so to speak ), while Hachiman hadn't, so for him the past was still a sore spot.

I suppose the novel version of the scene might have had something that was cut from the anime version.

There's no "moving on", she thought of him as an absolute nothing back then and she thinks of him as an absolute nothing now. It was a hilarious joke to her then, a confession from a total loser, and it's a ridiculous joke to her now, and nowhere near a big enough event that she'd need to "move on" from it. She wasn't joking about a past event either, every scene shows her either talking about how awesome Hayato is or how ridiculously pathetic Hachiman's every action now is. I don't know if I'd want a friend who, on our first encounter in years, subjects me to hours of ridicule in which they turn every last thing I say or do into a hilarious joke while commenting on how people would freak out to see them hanging out with the likes of me. That's not friendly banter or laughing at an occasional screw-up. Frankly I've heard such lines before said by bullies, who saw their victims as no more than an amusing way to get other people's attention, later ridiculing the person for seeming to still be a little hurt and not "moving on" like they claim to have done, all the while exhibiting the same contempt.

As for Haruno, it's been established that she's a powerful judge of character who can often figure a lot out in the first encounter. She may not have been able to figure everything out from Kaori's and Hachiman's actions, such as the fact that Hachiman had contacted and talked to Kaori numerous times and just didn't realize that he registered so little to her that she'd later say they'd never talked before, but she could certainly pick up on some degree of her dismissal. Add to that that she was disappointed when "someone rained on [her] parade" and the fact that she set the whole date up and it seems quite likely that she was planning to do something or set something up. After all, it's been made clear that she only gets interested in people if she wants to shower them with love or crush them mercilessly, and considering her fondness for Hachiman I rather doubt she harbored much affection for Kaori. Depending on how you look at it, losing her desired target might be partly responsible for her abnormally harsh treatment of her little sister.

One last thing, a much lighter note: in Hachiman at last I've seen a man who knows how to handle those "accidental pervert" moments (when he saw Yumiko's panties). In almost every scenario I've ever seen, after the girl falls and exposes herself, the guy will stand there staring, either mesmerized or internally trying to figure out a way to avoid looking like a pervert. Hachiman's the first one I've seen in some times who does the right thing: get one good look (at the situation that is), then turn around and leave before the girl can realize what happened.

[Pen3]

I am a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see Yumiko's panties. I bet they were laced lingerie.

[RegalStar]

I don't really know why people think Haruno set it up. To me it looks like Hayato is the one who insisted on dragging Hachiman into it, and Haruno ended up going along because she knew about it from Hayato's request of her, and thought it was interesting.

[Salva]

I agree with regalStar.

There's something that bothers me about the whole thing. He made everyone go through that stupid outing just so... what? He could tell the bitches Hachiman has cool friends? What does it help?

I rewatched the whole thing (first season and 4 second season episodes) and I came here curious if someone thought of the same thing. I also suspect it was Hayato's idea. As for a reason? Analysing everything that happened between Hayato and Hikigaya I think this time Hayama attempted to be like Hachiman to get Haruno's attention. That's why she knew about the date, Hayato told her. That would also explain why she was in that particular cafe. She might have expected a bit different outcome, she didn't know what Hayato planned, she got curious since Hikigaya was involved. That's why Hayato wanted Hachiman to come so badly, otherwise Haruno wouldn't be interested. Although I am not 100% sure it seems like the best explanation.

[com_gwp]

Why's the OST so far off? I need to get my hands on those beautiful piano renditions of S1's theme songs.

[DragoonKain3]

I just had a brilliant epiphany. Hayato liking Y is him liking Yui! It all makes sense now...

Seriously speaking, I really do think it's Yukinon. Hayato's relationship with Haruno still looks more like a slave bowing to the will of his master, and Hayato always keeps going on about something that 'some things that are broken will never be recovered' even in this episode.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

There's something that bothers me about the whole thing. He made everyone go through that stupid outing just so... what? He could tell the bitches Hachiman has cool friends? What does it help?

I personally was under the impression that Hayato wanted to 'help' Hikki, as there's the long spiel about how Hikki's self-sacrificial help is actually a call of help from others. And it did help Hikki, as he also admitted that he can now 'move on from something that didn't even start.' Of course he's pissed off at Hayato, but I still have to rewatch the episode whether if it is because he truly believed his actions aren't 'self-sacrifice' but a natural flow of his actions, or that he is pissed because Hayato showed how 'bad' his methods are by throwing it right back at him.

[Birdway]

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

I don't really know why people think Haruno set it up. To me it looks like Hayato is the one who insisted on dragging Hachiman into it, and Haruno ended up going along because she knew about it from Hayato's request of her, and thought it was interesting.

Thats how it worked, Haruno used Hayato who dance in the palm of her hands.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I just had a brilliant epiphany. Hayato liking Y is him liking Yui! It all makes sense now...

Seriously speaking, I really do think it's Yukinon. Hayato's relationship with Haruno still looks more like a slave bowing to the will of his master, and Hayato always keeps going on about something that 'some things that are broken will never be recovered' even in this episode.

All the more reason why it could be Yukinoshita Haruno.

He talks about "never falling in love" right after Hachiman mentioned his deal with Orimoto.

If anything, he could be talking about how he used to be Haruno's favorite pet similar to what Hachiman is to her now. He could have admired her, but she never cared for him as anything other than a source of amusement back then.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

There's no "moving on", she thought of him as an absolute nothing back then and she thinks of him as an absolute nothing now. It was a hilarious joke to her then, a confession from a total loser, and it's a ridiculous joke to her now, and nowhere near a big enough event that she'd need to "move on" from it. She wasn't joking about a past event either, every scene shows her either talking about how awesome Hayato is or how ridiculously pathetic Hachiman's every action now is. I don't know if I'd want a friend who, on our first encounter in years, subjects me to hours of ridicule in which they turn every last thing I say or do into a hilarious joke while commenting on how people would freak out to see them hanging out with the likes of me. That's not friendly banter or laughing at an occasional screw-up. Frankly I've heard such lines before said by bullies, who saw their victims as no more than an amusing way to get other people's attention, later ridiculing the person for seeming to still be a little hurt and not "moving on" like they claim to have done, all the while exhibiting the same contempt.

She seemed nice enough to him in the flashback scenes. I actually got the impression she was part of the reason Hachiman developed his "I hate nice girls" attitude.

To me, the joking about Hachiman's behaviour started off innocently enough (the doughnut shop scene), then grew into something more sinister (him constantly being the butt of the jokes on the date). It's something that can happen if people aren't careful.

I do think someone ought to make Kaori aware of what she's doing. But to me she doesn't actually seem malicious. When I was going through school, I had a much bigger problem with the people who seemed to have it out for me than I did with the girls who ran away when I asked one of them to dance.

As for Haruno, it's been established that she's a powerful judge of character who can often figure a lot out in the first encounter. She may not have been able to figure everything out from Kaori's and Hachiman's actions, such as the fact that Hachiman had contacted and talked to Kaori numerous times and just didn't realize that he registered so little to her that she'd later say they'd never talked before, but she could certainly pick up on some degree of her dismissal. Add to that that she was disappointed when "someone rained on [her] parade" and the fact that she set the whole date up and it seems quite likely that she was planning to do something or set something up. After all, it's been made clear that she only gets interested in people if she wants to shower them with love or crush them mercilessly, and considering her fondness for Hachiman I rather doubt she harbored much affection for Kaori. Depending on how you look at it, losing her desired target might be partly responsible for her abnormally harsh treatment of her little sister.

Haruno did what she did during the doughnut shop scene for her own amusement. I'm inclined to think she was observing the double date for fun as well.

One last thing, a much lighter note: in Hachiman at last I've seen a man who knows how to handle those "accidental pervert" moments (when he saw Yumiko's panties). In almost every scenario I've ever seen, after the girl falls and exposes herself, the guy will stand there staring, either mesmerized or internally trying to figure out a way to avoid looking like a pervert. Hachiman's the first one I've seen in some times who does the right thing: get one good look (at the situation that is), then turn around and leave before the girl can realize what happened.

This at least I can more or less agree on. Nice to see a guy who isn't a complete moron in an incident like that.

[~Yami~]

I prefer if Hayato likes Yukinoshita Haruno
therefore, there is no need for me to blast my cannon to a new emerged ship
Yukino and Yui ships already make a mess in my mind

anyway, I dislike Hayato's way to replicate Hikki's way of doing thing
I'm sure that he feels responsible for what's happening so far... but that is overboard
although I appreciate his idea to call best two girls to show that Hikki is not a despicable person
Hikki also did a very good way to protect the date from those random popping classmates

I don't know what is going on in Haruno's mind
but Yukino's candidacy annoys me
however, when Yui announced to enter the warzone, everything suddenly become very interesting
and I'm pretty sure... that next episode... Hikki would announce his candidacy too

Three-way-pronged battle from fellow club members... still hanging out together in club room but fight furiously outside to gain attention
I love this development and fully support everything from now on... I guess maybe Iroha or Hayato would win in the end.. and three-protagonists can go back to their fluffy chilling loving time together

about the opening... I kinda noticed that since last episode

Spoiler for shakugan no shana reference:

well, I remember the scene when Shana and Kazumi decided to have a battle to win over Yuji

It is hard to imagine same thing happened to Yukino and Yui... but... well... dunno

[Nicaea]

I didn't expect Hayato to actually do something and I'm still suspecting that Haruno had a hand in it. That being said, if the room's temperature rose exponentially when Yui and Yukino entered, it became chilly when Haruno turned her attention to Yukino. I'm still not sure if Yukino's methods are ideal but I'm more interested innwhat 8man will do. Yui stepping up was a nice touch though it's a bit sad to hear how she berates herself. The teacher should back off for once and quit putting every matter into 8man's hands. Go have someone else fix the mess this time jeez.

[Arya]

Great episode. Things are getting more complicated and interesting now. Yukino, pushed by her sister, decided to run for the election. No surprises here. Sure the Haruno's line that got her I suppose has been the one about letting do the job to others without moving a finger. That add-ups with my idea of her wanting to stop Hachiman.
I was also half expecting Yui to make her move too, she had to do something and lately it felt like she was lost between Yukino and Hachiman being so cold to each others.

The only solution I can think of right now is Hachiman asking to Hayato to participate too. In the end Yukino seems to have all the cards to win that Yui has not (even if IIRC she is quite popular). And considering that Hayato has stepped in this game of self-sacrifice it could make sense. He also wants to restore something that he broke.

Speaking of Haruno, I noted how she is interested in Hachiman and Yukino, but not in Yui and Hayato. Probably because they are not messed up. And that she used the same gesture toward Yukino (that slapped away) and later toward Hachiman, I wonder if I should take that as a sign that she see them in the same way.
In any case she is really interesting since I think she is very careful in what she does and what she says, so in a way, she is up to something also with Hayato, since she is constantly putting him down. She do seems like pulling the strings, but it's really hard to guess her final goal. But if I have to guess she wants to fix them all.

Last, was Hachiman referring to Yukino during the bike monologue? When he said how he had his solid conviction shared with someone else that now is lost.

[Anh_Minh]

What would the Hachiman thing to do be here? Find a way to completely ruin the election so it just doesn't occur? How?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

She seemed nice enough to him in the flashback scenes. I actually got the impression she was part of the reason Hachiman developed his "I hate nice girls" attitude.

To me, the joking about Hachiman's behaviour started off innocently enough (the doughnut shop scene), then grew into something more sinister (him constantly being the butt of the jokes on the date). It's something that can happen if people aren't careful.

I do think someone ought to make Kaori aware of what she's doing. But to me she doesn't actually seem malicious. When I was going through school, I had a much bigger problem with the people who seemed to have it out for me than I did with the girls who ran away when I asked one of them to dance.



Haruno did what she did during the doughnut shop scene for her own amusement. I'm inclined to think she was observing the double date for fun as well.



This at least I can more or less agree on. Nice to see a guy who isn't a complete moron in an incident like that.

In the flashbacks she seemed to at most give him a few brief greetings and gave him her info out of some weird politeness (in fact the giving of her contact info is the one thing in her that doesn't make sense). In fact, the best I could gather she initially treated him as an acquaintance so casual she didn't even remember talking to him, but when he asked her out she finally noticed him. He went from a nobody to the nobody who thought he had a chance with her.

Considering Hachiman's flashbacks, it seems the scenarios he remembers most are the ones where people find out and ridicule him, which would then suggest that she too may very well have spread the word about it. I'll admit she didn't seem malicious about it, but is it really any better to know that a girl didn't mean anything good or bad toward you when she laughs with friends about how far out of her league you are? Either way, her biggest crime is how utterly dismissive she is of him, and yes, from the first joke she seemed quite clearly to think of him as someone not up to her level. It just became worse the moment the thought of Hayato came up.

I'm sorry, but a part of me likes the dismissive types even less than the classic bullies. A classic bully's interest in you stems from your own reactions to their tortures, and so a change of reaction or confrontation can throw them off or even make them lose interest. This sort of person though doesn't really care about her victim in the first place, because he's a nobody who just became a joke to her. As long as her friends agree that it's funny nothing will stop her. And even if someone calls her out on it, him having a couple friends don't suffice. Her reaction to Hayato's reproach seemed far from repentant, more like she'd been called out only to get scolded for something "silly".

Concerning Haruno, I'm not sure she'd be the type to ask Hayato to do something like this. She seems more likely in this case to have just let him think of it himself then use him for her own amusement. That said, she certainly from the first encounter seemed to take a certain interest in Kaori, and Hayato himself made it quite clear that, whether for amusement or something else, Haruno only takes an interest in someone with the plans to adore them or crush them. I rather doubt that she'd be that fond of Kaori, so this strong interest definitely feels like malice. And her final words certainly suggest that she'd had some kind of high hopes for the events of the date, and Hayato had ruined them, so it's not a big leap to assume that she'd had some "fun" planned for Kaori before the night ended. And again, the loss of a victim would help explain why she was extra harsh and blunt in her treatment of her sister.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

In the flashbacks she seemed to at most give him a few brief greetings and gave him her info out of some weird politeness (in fact the giving of her contact info is the one thing in her that doesn't make sense). In fact, the best I could gather she initially treated him as an acquaintance so casual she didn't even remember talking to him, but when he asked her out she finally noticed him. He went from a nobody to the nobody who thought he had a chance with her.

Pretty much. Hachiman himself confirmed during the movie that he finally realized that Kaori acts in such carefree fashion with anyone, even with those she doesn't have any interest in, illustrated with the flashback of her greeting Hachiman randomly.

Concerning Haruno, I'm not sure she'd be the type to ask Hayato to do something like this.

I wonder about that. Not only Haruno knew Hayato bowed his head when asking Hachiman to tag along, but Hayato himself was startled when he realized that Hachiman didn't know about the double date at all.

In fact, it doesn't make sense for Hayato to make such kind of plan willingly as it is absurdely roundabout. Furthermore, Hayato barely learned about Hachiman's crush on Kaori, but he doesn't know how Kaori still treat him like garbage before the date, contrary to Haruno who knew full well how even hachiman wasn't fancying this "reunion". So there is no reason for him to "fix" Hachiman's social image like that, especially with someone who isn't in the same school to begin with.

[pagan poor]

Lots of "self sacrificing" going on. Hayato did it this episode. Yukino and Yui are about to embark on it for the election. It will be very interesting how Hachiman basically stops them from being a caricature of himself.

[Mangonel]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What would the Hachiman thing to do be here? Find a way to completely ruin the election so it just doesn't occur? How?

Dunno, his go-to plan was to use his own infamy to spoil the election.

We're in a situation where Hikki has had his methods called out and has realized he lost his no-bullshit-ever connection/pact/w.e with Yukino.

So I think the goal would be for him to use the blatant truth of the situation in some manner to solve the election issue. This would keep the club and restore Yukino's faith in him. Perhaps revealing everyone's motivations for running would do the trick?


Below are my own thoughts I wrote out just to put things together in my own head, kinda rambly but figured I'd share anyway.

Hayato pines for Haruno, dunno what the past is there but its pretty obvious. This is why Hayato took issue with Hikki's old crush, it reminds him of his situation with Haruno. I do think the double-date was Hayato's idea (remember Haruno said he's prideful and him bowing for a favor is serious). In Hayato's own way he wanted to try and show Haruno he could be like Hikki (interesting) while also maybe helping Hikki to realize his own worth. (Hayato does feel somewhat indebted to Hikki for his prior help)

Yukino hates bullshit because of Haruno's incessant manipulation. Haruno is such a master manipulator it takes a person on par with Hikki's intelligence and cynicism to figure her out, and as such Yukino grew to dislike people and society in general because normal societal interaction (esp. Japanese) is riddled with hollow niceties and two-faced interactions. Hikki's zero-tolerance policy for white lies (esp ones that hide an underlying truth in order to preserve the status quo/feelings) is what gave him a connection to Yukino. Yui is the doesn't-have-a-mean-bone-her-body type and as such Yukino is comfortable with her, additionally Yui's own understanding nature allows her to deal with Yukino's cold/harsh demeanor.

Yui may not be that smart comparative to Yukino/Hikki but she does realize the lengths Hikki goes to in order to help people. Probably why she fell for him, hes basically a soldier who keeps jumping on the social grenades to save comrades who hate him. She also realizes Yukino and Hikki share a world view, even if Hikki violated it. Shes running purely to give Yukino and Hikki an opportunity to sort things out. Quintessential ditzy-girl-everyone-loves.

Hikki has likely realized all of the above to some varying degree himself. In his own introspection he probably realized his motivation for violating his 'golden' no-bs rule was to keep the service club alive and therefore his time with Yui/Yukino. By 'saving' Hayato's group in the manner he did he declared the trio's relationship and his/Yukino's no-bs conviction to be of equally little real value. He won't be able to understand this until he acknowledges his own self-worth and thereby the fact other people would place value on a relationship with him.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mangonel

Dunno, his go-to plan was to use his own infamy to spoil the election.

We're in a situation where Hikki has had his methods called out and has realized he lost his no-bullshit-ever connection/pact/w.e with Yukino.

I think, following the themes of this arc, that pact never existed. They just imagined it, just like middle school Hachiman imagined some girl liked him, over and over again. He's already proven that, in the right circumstances, he'll also value bullshit. And I think he'll eventually find out, Yukino comes with her own set of bullshit.

I suppose a shared delusion is a connection. But what happens when reality calls?