Controversial Fansub Documentary

[Teppei]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I have to disagree with one point though: you said opinions of non-fansubbers don't matter in the end. I don't think that's really true; it's true that most fansubbers are doing it for their own enjoyment, but I think doing things without listening to what their consumers (note: no commercial connotation here) want is a bit rude. For every loud complainer there's a constructive criticism out there that might be useful for fansubbers to perfect their craft. Okay, maybe not for every loud complainer, but even ten to one it still counts.

Oh, I agree. Having fans enjoy the fansub is almost always part of the things people like about the hobby. However, if it was the case that fansubbers wanted to do something a particular way even if pile of "fans" complained about it, I'd hope they would go ahead a do it to their own pleasing. I know I would.

Oh, btw, IMO the original troll video was great, I was chortling throughout. Kudos to the effort that went into it, even if the overall impression was one of being far too strident.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

So close the market on fansubs. Everyone boycot half-assed honorific-loving Japanese language-learning translation lessons and localise, and everyone will have to watch proper translation or else learn Japanese.
Then I'll build a giant statue of myself posing victoriously at the sky.

You seem to have a thing about the honorifics. Do you feel the same way about Italian to English translations? Or Spanish to English?

[Quarkboy]

I wonder what the Ota"King" thinks about the upcoming release of Maria-sama ga Miteru by Nozomi entertainment (Right stuf).

They've gone so far as to include _2_ subtitle tracks on the DVDs: one with honorifics and one without.
You can't complain about that, can you? (or the price, frankly: yeah, I'm plugging it, sue me).

[hiatus]

Originally Posted by Jaka

since when was anime about learning japanese?

seriously, go take some classes if you want to learn japanese.

Since I'm watching something that is made in another country I respect their culture enough to leave things intact so that I'm not just some idiot who only sees my version as the only way it could be understood ^_- I forgot knowledge should be banned from fansubs, thanks for reminding me!

Keep trolling... I mean rolling Jaka

[Tripfag]

I agree with the guy, especially what he said about Honorifics and random Japanese words.

[petran79]

I dont mind really about the subtitling quality. I am testing the series for free anyway.

But in titles like Texhnolyze, Geneon had a disastrous localization, making the whole plot unintelligible (even more than it actually is).

Another quality title, namely Key the Metal Idol and many other titles too, have dubtitles. I paid for those DVD-boxes and I have to say I wasnt satisfied at all. I enjoyed the series but with good translations I could have enjoyed them even more

I hope you make another documentary about the flaws of professional anime companies that will be more helpful to us so we could avoid their releases, but I guess that would make you unpopular with the anime companies and their translators so you prefer the unknown fansubbers that are an easier target.


But I also have an issue with the fansubs. The subtitle lines should be left half a second at least after the dialogue ends and not disappear exactly with the dialogue. Like you see in normal translations. The dialogue shouldnt be that descriptive. Watch a Japanese live action film and see how it is translated on TV, cinema or DVD. Karaoke in the OP and ED I dont mind. I dont watch a series for the OP and ED anyway.


But anyway, I am glad I lived in continental Europe in the 80s and 90s and not in the UK/US so I could watch all those great series on TV and VHS and not through fansubs.

[Utils]

Re: dj_tjerk


> You were using the word 'they' and 'group'. Basically accusing/crediting the people (people.. plural) in GX_ST-Oni for doing awesome (or sucky) work on another show. You didn't say "the guy that styles the effect translations." And I never mentioned something about being able to join only one group?
Ugh. Grasping at straws. Point for point replies is one of the worst things about message boards. *rolls eyes*


> But I picked up the meaning of onii-chan/onee-san/chichi-ue/otou-san from watching fansubs. I never once considered they were name of some sort. ...how do you know fansubbers leave the words for brother and sister in the original language if you don't even know what the words for brother and sister should be?
*entire cast of Evangelion says congratulations to dj_terk on his e-peen*
With that out of the way, the problem with the whole brother/sister/senpai/etc. is that the subs are done poorly and it makes it difficult to follow who's talking to who ABOUT who!

A perfect example is the shit job of Kamen no Maid Guy being done by Yakuza & TK. This is clearly a group run by Wees. They didn't translate itadakimasu.(sp?) Yeah, I know what it is, but if I was just getting into anime I wouldn't. I can't know what that means if what I hear and what's written on screen is the same, can I? If I were trying to get someone into the show they would hate me for putting them though a shitty sub.

Even worse, it looks like no one else is subbing it, so I'm stuck. Meanwhile, Macross Frontier gets subbed by four more groups looking to increase that e-peen.

And the fact is, if I have to translate as I'm watching then I'm not enjoying it. But hey, that's me, I don't worship the Japanese. That typical line about respecting the work is bullshit. If you respected it you wouldn't be pirating.

Listen, I was butthurt with the rest of the early fans when I learned DBZ and Sailormoon were butchered to fuck. How ironic that it's now the fans doing the butchering.


>I guess you can say it is a VERY polite way of saying "Father" or "Mother". I personally think "Father" and "Mother" are already quite polite and "Mom" and "Dad" have a much more natural/informal feeling to it.
Agreed.

>I learned enough japanese from watching QUALITY^TM subs to understand/enjoy subs of lesser quality (reading over mistakes and not translating 'obvious' japanese words).
We get it, you know Japanese. I'm very happy for you.

[Utils]

Originally Posted by hiatus

Since I'm watching something that is made in another country I respect their culture enough to leave things intact so that I'm not just some idiot who only sees my version as the only way it could be understood

I know I already said it in my reply but this is just a dumb mindset.

If you ask me, people with this belief are OVERCOMPENSATING for the hackneyed work of 4kids and funimation. Rather than just translate the work, they want to leave it as close to the original Japanese work as possible. That works in theory but not in execution.

As an artist myself I would WANT my work to be enjoyed worldwide and without limitations.

Fansubers will not cut any footage and that's half the battle. Already you have a product that stays true to the original work. The other half of the battle is being able to access that work. If it's in Japanese I personally won't understand it, and neither will many new fans. The subbing is critical. Leave in the Japanese stuff and I might as well be watching it raw.

When did anime watching become an elitist hobby?

[creamyhorror]

Originally Posted by Utils

A perfect example is the shit job of Kamen no Maid Guy being done by Yakuza & TK. This is clearly a group run by Wees. They didn't translate itadakimasu.(sp?) Yeah, I know what it is, but if I was just getting into anime I wouldn't. I can't know what that means if what I hear and what's written on screen is the same, can I? If I were trying to get someone into the show they would hate me for putting them though a shitty sub.

Itadakimasu is a uniquely Japanese and entirely ubiquitous expression, and the story's set in Japan. IMO, that's sufficient justification for it to be left untranslated and given a cultural note, although translating it as "Let's eat!" is fine as well (and better for those uninterested in Japanese culture). Not translating it and also not explaining it is a bad practice, but groups normally translate or explain it - so you should call that Kamen fansub group out on it, but not all fansubbers.

Ultimately, anime is a cultural medium, and I would say it makes sense that at least some fans would be receptive to learning Japanese culture - there are of course ones who aren't, but no group can cater to everybody.

Even worse, it looks like no one else is subbing it, so I'm stuck. Meanwhile, Macross Frontier gets subbed by four more groups looking to increase that e-peen.

Why does that matter? Fansubbing is an open, competitive market, not a unified entity or cooperative effort. If most groups think Kamen no Maid Guy is crap or not worth the subbing effort for e-peen, that's really too bad for the people who like the show, but at least they're still getting subs from someone, right? Similarly, the groups that don't have the will to continue with Macross Frontier will drop out, especially if they're not getting their ego boost due to low download numbers or whatever. Natural market forces will stop them.

Basically, your perspective is quite wrong on these issues. If you'd like to provide less "weeabooish" subs, why don't you start your own group?

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

Itadakimasu is a uniquely Japanese and entirely ubiquitous expression, and the story's set in Japan. IMO, that's sufficient justification for it to be left untranslated and given a cultural note, although translating it as "Let's eat!" is fine as well (and better for those uninterested in Japanese culture).

In this case, I think that the way FUNimation did it in the subs for Dragonball (and propably every other show Steve Simmons subbed) worked best, where they translated it as "I humbly accept this food". It might sound overly polite at times, but I'm pretty sure that's about as close to the original meaning as you're gonna get, and it's not like that line is untranslatable or anything.

But on the topic of professional companies making mistakes, yes, that should have been brought up at some point too. Like on the first two volumes of Bleach, where they simply dropped the honorifics, sometimes without bothering to try and adapt it into something more logical, so Orihime goes around calling Ichigo "Kurosaki" for 8 episodes, which is COMPLETELY different from saying "Kurosaki-kun". Fortunately, they changed it afterwards and just had her use his first name instead. And then there's the uncut Naruto-sets that use dub-terms in the subs every now and then, and I'm fairly sure they also use the dubbed episode-titles, which are mostly the same as the japanese, but the problem is just that: MOSTLY. Some of them are different. Not to mention any dubtitled DVD, or just any other official DVD where the subs just reek of lazyness. (Mostly Viz's stuff there too, though I did think the subs in Haruhi were somewhat poor at times, like in episode 5/13, where Kyon thinks something like "I'm kind of melancholy so this is all I can think of right now". I have no idea what they were trying to say there.)

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by hiatus

Since I'm watching something that is made in another country I respect their culture enough to leave things intact so that I'm not just some idiot who only sees my version as the only way it could be understood ^_- I forgot knowledge should be banned from fansubs, thanks for reminding me!

Keep trolling... I mean rolling Jaka

3/10

getting a bit too hypocritical, are we?

anime is not a tool to learn japanese, it's just that simple. some people, like you, think that anime is a fucking knowledge gold mine. sup, school.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Jaka

3/10

getting a bit too hypocritical, are we?

anime is not a tool to learn japanese, it's just that simple. some people, like you, think that anime is a fucking knowledge gold mine. sup, school.

How is anime not a tool to learn Japanese? You want to know the secret to learning languages?

It's immersing yourself in the culture, listening to the spoken language, speaking it, etc etc. School, sadly, hardly provides enough of that and is only part of the solution to learning a language effectively.

Just to add, it doesn't even have to be anime. It can be dramas, movies, and other media too. I know I learned English very quickly from watching cartoons on TV to supplement what was taught at school.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

In this case, I think that the way FUNimation did it in the subs for Dragonball (and propably every other show Steve Simmons subbed) worked best, where they translated it as "I humbly accept this food". It might sound overly polite at times, but I'm pretty sure that's about as close to the original meaning as you're gonna get, and it's not like that line is untranslatable or anything.

Wrong. Japanese just say it before meals because it's customary. "Let's eat" is closer to the original meaning. Unless you meant literal meaning which you really shouldn't be translating anyway ^^;

And Fain|Yuki! What's up, man. Sucks you won't be at Otakon

-Tofu

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by cors8

How is anime not a tool to learn Japanese? You want to know the secret to learning languages?

It's immersing yourself in the culture, listening to the spoken language, speaking it, etc etc. School, sadly, hardly provides enough of that and is only part of the solution to learning a language effectively.

Just to add, it doesn't even have to be anime. It can be dramas, movies, and other media too. I know I learned English very quickly from watching cartoons on TV to supplement what was taught at school.

please excuse me if i didn't make it clear, anime should not be used as the main source of learning japanese, and certainly it wasn't made for learning japanese :\

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Jaka

please excuse me if i didn't make it clear, anime should not be used as the main source of learning japanese, and certainly it wasn't made for learning japanese :\

Correct - entertainment. However, even entertainment can teach people. Even in Japan they use cartoons to teach children. We usually don't watch those shows from Japan over here. I've seen them on trips to Tokyo. The key is it can inspire someone to go out and learn Japanese so they can better understand their favorite show.

[exedore]

Originally Posted by Heibi

Even in Japan they use cartoons to teach children. We usually don't watch those shows from Japan over here.

We usually don't, but darned if I haven't subtitled a couple of them.

"THE MILK IS IN THE GLASS! YUM YUM!"

[Utils]

Re: creamyhorror
> Itadakimasu...
They left it as-is without a note.

> ...those uninterested in Japanese culture...
I hope that not the vibe I'm giving out! If that were the case I'd be all about them 4kids dubs. Remember when rice balls were called donuts in Pokemon? *facepalm*

> ...no group can cater to everybody.
That could be debatable. Supply created the demand, I believe. If no one did karaoke would it be an absolute MUST today? I'm surprised people complain about Karaoke not being in there but here I am complaining about Japanese words being left in. lolz

> ...why don't you start your own group?
If I could I would. I love introducing new people to anime and then fansubs but you guys make it difficult on me! I have to explain too much. I was lucky, I got to ease into the whole thing. This hobby isn't even a technical hurdle. Ironically, the barrier for entry is language!



Re: Vegard Aune
> But on the topic of professional companies making mistakes, yes, that should have been brought up at some point too.
This is a strawman. I'm not saying they don't, fuck up but that's not really in our control. Fansubbers, on the other hand, are not so hopeless.

> ...Bleach...
My problem with Bleach is that whether it's in Japanese or English it comes off as VERY VERY VERY convoluted to me.



Re: cors
> It's immersing yourself in the ...spoken language...
That would work if the translation you were reading for the spoken language were in your native language! If someone constantly watched anime with itadakimasu untranslated they would assume it was the Japanese way to say grace or whatever. And it works because it's context based. But had it been translated they would have learned this quicker. I agree that immersion works.

BTW, you should look into Rosetta Stone. It's INCREDIBLE when it comes to learning a language. I speak better Mandarin because of it.




-----

I hope I don't come off as some *super patriotic asshole or whatever. I thought I'd share my thoughts and give some insight to those doing the subbing out there. The video may have had a strong tone but it wasn't wrong. And I don't believe his examples were cherry picked either. Good subbing is out there but it's not common for newer shows. And newer shows is what he used in his video.

I guess all new shows are speed subs these days, and the releases for older shows have more love put into them.

I do disagree with Otaking about WHEN the fansubbing quality went down. I got the feeling, and I could be wrong, that he was upset with digisubs in general. Personally, I feel it's more of a recent problem. I feel it started around the time Naruto got licensed. Around that time I remember fansubs having better translations than they do today. The fans were willing to WAIT for ANBU subs. When Naruto got licensed and they stopped subbing it ushered in the era of speed subbing. It became a free-for-all. And I don't remember liking Dattebayo: we got used to them.



* If you were going to reply with, "No, you're just a regular asshole," then I'm sorry for stealing your thunder. :]


P.S.: Honestly if it were ONLY honorifics I don't think anyone would care. It was just one of many sticking points. It doesn't really bother me so much as the rationalization behind it does.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Utils

I hope I don't come off as some *super patriotic asshole or whatever. I thought I'd share my thoughts and give some insight to those doing the subbing out there.

I didn't find you patriotic, just extremely patronizing, as if we don't know better.

> ...why don't you start your own group?
If I could I would. I love introducing new people to anime and then fansubs but you guys make it difficult on me! I have to explain too much. I was lucky, I got to ease into the whole thing. This hobby isn't even a technical hurdle. Ironically, the barrier for entry is language!

You're in luck! Why not ask The Mighty Otaking to start a fansub group with him and show us how it's supposed to be done? He can tackle translation and technical aspects of the fansub while you can be his editor or quality checker. Small group, skilled people, boutique fansub releases... o.ob

[mandarb916]

Originally Posted by cors8

How is anime not a tool to learn Japanese? You want to know the secret to learning languages?

It's immersing yourself in the culture, listening to the spoken language, speaking it, etc etc. School, sadly, hardly provides enough of that and is only part of the solution to learning a language effectively.

Just to add, it doesn't even have to be anime. It can be dramas, movies, and other media too. I know I learned English very quickly from watching cartoons on TV to supplement what was taught at school.

Using anime as a tool to learn Japanese, even in a small context of education, is like using eubonics as a tool to learn English. There's a good amount of script writing which, on purpose, uses incorrect grammar and what not.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

Using anime as a tool to learn Japanese, even in a small context of education, is like using eubonics as a tool to learn English. There's a good amount of script writing which, on purpose, uses incorrect grammar and what not.

That's actually not a problem - while you won't speak properly you'll still understand spoken language better than with the distilled version taught in schools. But anime can't serve as a way to learn Japanese simply because the main problem with it is kanji, of which you'll learn next to nothing even if you are watching it 24/7.