2011-04-28, 18:57 | Link #61 | |||||||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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And I assure you there was plenty of crime in the 50s, in Europe more so due to the poverty that existed during reconstruction. In Ireland we have very few immigrants (mostly recent Poles who are here to work), and we still have plenty of crime! I believe Ireland is not significantly different from the European average either. Quote:
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It's all absurd, let's move and enjoy ourselves, work a bit, and celebrate our culture however we like. Why should our feeling national pride make us feel the urge to hate some other country (in Ireland Britain gets all the hate...). Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-04-28 at 19:08. |
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2011-04-28, 19:06 | Link #62 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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On a more abstract level it created a foundation for a supranational European entity not based on the sovereignty of the Roman Imperial throne. Which vacancy had been an inspiration for madmen for 1500 years. |
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2011-04-28, 19:38 | Link #63 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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The Vietnamese immigrants here are equally educated as the Turkish immigrants here (i.e.: uneducated). But that's only the first generation. Starting with the second(!) generation the Vietnamese surpass the native population in terms of success in school, while the Turkish seem to get worse and worse with each generation. Quote:
I don't think tolerance is a problem in general, it's just that we've gone overboard and tend to turn a blind eye to errors in the immigrants culture. We won't solve anything that way. Quote:
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That's why they kill people when someone burns a Koran thousands of miles away and we criticize the one who burned it. That's if you live in the US. In some European countries you might have to fear prison (sooner or later). Quote:
I strongly disagree, we treat them way better than they treat us. And not to forget that they didn't migrate within a short amount of time. That's one of the reasons for the conflicts: huuge waves of immigration in a very short amount of time. This is probably something that has never happened on this scale in the history of humanity before. |
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2011-04-28, 19:43 | Link #64 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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I do believe to make the minority and immigration economically stronger may DO require changes to immigration laws. The last thing you wish to see is an influx of low/no skill people. Better skilled immigrant should have an advantage in getting citizenship over low/no skill immigrant. I hate to say it, but this is a situation that meritocracy is helpful. Poor management of immigration policy does not help the overall economy nor the future of the immigrants themselves. And as far as state is concerned, the state HAS to look after its own best interest well enough - that includes not screwing its own economy. Sometimes TOUGH choices are needed to be made. If actually tightening up immigration laws to limit to immigration to skill workers and reduce intake of economic refugees will lead to an improvement of quality of life for all (including immigrants and non-immigrants), it is a step that needs to be taken. Quote:
While I support open borders and easiness of travel within the EU, I am not sure Euro currency is actually a wise idea. One of the biggest problem of the European debt crisis is inflexibility of the Euro currency. While German economy is doing great and exporting well (drives Euro up), Greeks probably want Euro to weaken so they can become competitive. It does not help Merkel cannot go into the parliament in Athens demanding Greeks start paying taxes and make budget cuts when Greeks owe German money. Quote:
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It is ACTUALLY HARD to enjoy and celebrate ourselves, and move on to have a good life. It is EASY to be cynical, angry, intolerant because it requires no brain juice to do so! What irony! PS: If I am too blunt in my ideas, I will apologize. Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-04-28 at 20:02. |
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2011-04-28, 20:09 | Link #65 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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The old pattern of migration in the Americas was one of two things. Either you attempt to fit in with whatever culture is there already, or you segrigate your community. Sometimes these segrigated communities would integrate on following generations, and some just stay as they are (at least in some traditional sense...but these tend to be in rural areas...Amish for instance). If you went far enough back, the immigates would take over the natives as they started to outnumber the locals (but that usually only works if you can get a technological edge).
Integration was a source of pride for some families. The whole "American Dream" thing from the late 19th century onwards. The basic problems start when a group does not integrate...or possibly even refusing to intergrate. Then it causes friction, either when the locals think the newcomers are weird, or when the newcomers start wanting the locals to conform to them, rather than the other way around. Loudly even. Currently, the American immigration problem is not with legal immigration, but with illegal immigration. The undocumented. Some that aren't here to stay, just to get work and send money home (under the table mostly, so it doesn't get taxed), or the revolving door of someone coming in and getting sent home, only to come back again and again. Many complain about them taking jobs and federal or state money for welfare and not paying taxes. Honestly the jobs being taken were jobs being done by immigrate labor for well over hundred years anyway. The stuff the locals don't want to do anymore (there was even a program to get in temporary labor from Mexico during the Second World War to fill in the need for farmhands due to manpower shortages). The main reason the problem is not solved is because people like cheap food and companies like cheap labor as it keeps their costs down. The illegal Latino population mixes with the legal population and the native latino population (remember places like California, Texas, and Arizona were part of Mexico and New Spain before the Americans got hold of those lands). Most of the older communities assimilated into the more English dominated populations, but Southern California was always heavily Mexican, even to the point when Southern California wanted to break away from Northern Calfornia in the 1860s because of the Anglo-Latino split. The newcomers though have less and less reasons to assimulate. More and more of the region is speaking Spanish, and the style is reflecting Mexico more than say Ohio. That they are spreading north and east does worry people in areas that were not previously owned by Spain in the colonial period. Oregan and Washington for example are starting to get Hispanic communities were there never existed before. The White population of California is a little put off that they are no longer a majority in California...They are still actually the largest single racial group in the state, but they are less than 50% of the population, and falling.
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2011-04-28, 20:14 | Link #66 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The only real way to solve the immigration issue is for European states to work with the states of the Middle East to improve prosperity there. I don't think this would be too difficult, perhaps allow middle eastern governments favourable trading terms, invest money there (with an expected return). Not only that but we have to cease favouring autocratic governments and work with the newly minted democracies there. Obviously it's the people of these countries responsibility to make their government work, but we can make there lives easier and provide subtle "encouragement" like we have done, to very good effect, with Turkey. Quote:
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It's the same pretty much everywhere, it's always your neighbours you hate the most. |
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2011-04-28, 20:32 | Link #67 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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While Europeans do have to shoulder some historical reasons why the Middle East and Africa are so messed up, an equal responsibility also exists to the leaders and people there. Again as you say... people like to only blame others but not their own problems - that applies to Arabs, Africans, and Europeans. Humans are just being humans (as always). Quote:
It is kind of funny that the world economy goes in political cycle - things go unregulated in 20s, bust, Keynes smack everyone. Then everyone goes Keynes and Betton Wood, and things do not work. Everyone then go back to minimal regulation eras in the 20s (I still recall I watched Milton Friedman videos when I was still in high school...) Then bust! Bye bye to the Neo Great Gatsby era, but I am not sure that we have gone back to Keynesian; the folks in HSBC, Goldman Sachs and gang are stuffing money into politicians to try to make sure that will not happen. |
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2011-04-28, 20:47 | Link #68 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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2011-04-28, 21:13 | Link #69 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I will certainly agree that it isn't going to go well if an intolerant aggressive group immigrates to a multi-cultural tolerant area. And that is exactly the problem Europe faces ....
In England a couple of centuries ago .... they ended up kicking the Puritans and other religious sects out .... dropkicked to America (where their intolerant views still bubble up though the religion is long gone).
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2011-04-28, 21:43 | Link #70 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
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The drug and gang problem is legitimate cause for concern yet I'm wary of even conflating that with the muslim non muslim friction in Europe, but I am afraid some (many) will too easily see them as one in the same. I frankly don't think that most Latinos are creating the exact same ruckus like a small number of muslims are in Europe (pushing for sharia, open hostility to innocent non muslims). Like you said, Latinos have been in north America for a LONG TIME. Still more broadly, US has to seriously reexamine drug policy and larger economic practices ALONG with immigration law in order to REALLY get close to having a real solution. With the way politics are in this country though, I don't count on it. I think people will just leave it at quotas and English language law and wall and leave it at that. |
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2011-04-29, 00:28 | Link #71 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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We humans are very slow to change. As you say "nudge to the right direction"; best not to expect too much, and we can really appreciate the real (but slow) progress being make. Quote:
One of the worse things of politics are often the politicians themselves do know the ideal solution. However, voters are not smart enough to understand real solutions. Politicians need to survive in his/her career and look after their own interest, and are pretty much forced to play upon foolish voters. The buzz word is you don't get votes showing charts, numbers, and logic. You get votes by being loud and sensational. When more voters start to demand more charts, numbers, and logic, we have made progress. |
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2011-04-29, 01:00 | Link #72 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
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Despite it being a two way street, we can't exactly make a Marshal Plan for Mexico to elevate it's economic standards and welfare so that drug money wouldn't be so influential. |
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2011-04-29, 01:06 | Link #73 |
blinded by blood
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Institute mandatory intelligence and critical thinking tests before voting rights are granted.
Seriously I think America is steadily becoming stupider, and the corporatists, the government and the robber barons want us that way, so of course something like this would never happen. The dumber the general populace is, the easier they are to manipulate.
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2011-04-29, 02:14 | Link #74 | ||
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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On multiculturalism, Australia isn't perfect. But I do think we do it better than most. You can take a walk through the middle of a major city and see close to every racial demonination under the sun. And it's completely normal. You could be eating over a dozen different styles of food a week. My friends are from a couple of dozen different countries, but they all love Australia. Maybe we're this way because we're a young country that was forced to rely on immigration from early on? *shrug* We have our issues, but I still feel far more welcome and safer within Australia than I probably would anywhere else in the world. And being the creation of a union of Indian and Polish families has not ever been an issue for me.
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2011-04-29, 04:20 | Link #75 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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All this talk about how Europe is worse off than America makes we wonder the what the hell everyone is talking about. And here I thought it was the other way around. Just how bad is it in Europe compared to the UK exactly?
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2011-04-29, 04:31 | Link #76 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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All you really need to do is read up up the recent problems with the Muslim immigrants and France, particularly Paris.
They did take certain actions like banning Hijabs (At least in school) if I'm not mistaken.
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2011-04-29, 04:54 | Link #77 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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is that where tourists should definitely avoid? is there one zone that's equivalent to places like Juarez, MX? |
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2011-04-29, 06:03 | Link #78 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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How about fixing US education and youth/teenage problems? Most older drug addicts may be hard to fix. However, I think we can do something about stopping younger and future drug addicts. If lesser people buy drugs, the demand from them will naturally decrease. Education is also part of the solution to intolerance, voter ignorance, and stopping the world going Brave New World. Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-04-29 at 06:31. |
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2011-04-29, 06:04 | Link #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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One way to look at the future of multiculturalism is Japan's culture.
Sound far fetched? Well you will not find any culture that had adopted more various culture and still kept a single identity than the Japanese culture. As far as ancient Chinese, Indian and even Greco Roman culture Japan had adopted, assimilated and made into it's own. Buddhism, Confucianism and even Christianity for religion and philosophy, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Indian, French, Dutch for cuisines, Chinese for clothing and architecture and many other, hodgepodge mix of various other cultures. Kimono's formal name is Go Fuku meaning clothes of Wu, Kanji is words of Han, Tempura is temperar in Portuguese meaning deep fry, curry rice is a mix of Indian dish introduced by the British and so on. If you dig far enough you can find traces of Greek mythology embedded within Japanese mythology such as the uncanny resemblance between the Izanami-Izanagi myth going to the under world and Greek Orpheus and Death of Eurydice myth. |
2011-04-29, 06:26 | Link #80 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
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As a fruit of thought... I have always pondered what will happen in East Asia if there is an excess of foreign immigrant and minority social problem. I somehow believe the reaction of "locals" may not differ that much with Europeans. Just like Europe, most of East Asian states are formed under the same concept of nationalism and nation building. The foundation of European and East Asian states are from locals. They are not nations of immigrants (US, Canada etc). The only difference between Europe and Asia is that it actually never been large immigration into East Asia! However, whenever there is a significant minority, one can do see tensions - read Turkic/Tibetan people in China, and Ainu in Japan. When Tibetan, Turkic and Ainu people become "Chinese and Japanese nationals", they are also not on the same economic level of prosperity. Another large difference between modern East Asia and Europe is that immigration laws of Japan, Korea, and China are by default much tougher to begin with. It is very hard to become Japanese, Korean or Chinese citizen without ancestry unless you are amazing smart or rich. |
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