Growing out of anime

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tempester

I don't doubt that there are changes in the industry, but it's certain sweeping or extreme statements that irk me. Claims like "All that I see now are K-On clones, the industry is dying, what happened to the days when all anime was Cowboy Bebop?" are what I refer to. Claims like "There has been a obvious increase in rate of anime centered around high school lately, therefore I've found less interesting series to watch" are just fine.

Ok, I think we understand each other then. I think we're on the same page. You make an important distinction here.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The lack of good hard sci-fi is something that bothers me considerably, but softer sci-fi doesn't seem to be slowing down much. I can't speak for anime, really--I've become so frustrated with the medium that I haven't been paying attention to new releases--but the gaming industry has been churning out loads and loads of sci-fi titles.

The Mass Effect series is ridiculously popular, and it draws heavily from 70s and 80s sci-fi tropes.

I don't think I'm growing out of anime so much as I simply dislike the state of the industry currently. Japan never managed to crawl completely out of their economic implosion and it's showing quite visibly in the number of otakubait shows that are released every year--and this keeps rising.

I miss the wide breadth of genre and theme that pervaded anime throughout the earlier years--it seems that every other show these days is another moe-infused fanservice fest with little actual substance.

Oh, I understand why this happens--these kind of stories are cheap and easy to write and by their nature lend themselves to simpler art direction and don't contain budget-draining battle scenes and setpieces. They're gobbled up by the hardcore otaku population in Japan and are really well-suited to selling lots and lots of licensed merchandise.

It's just depressing. What happened to the shows like Planetes, Starship Operators, Eve no Jikan, Noein, Dennou Coil? The simple answer is that discerning fans are more expensive to please, so the industry ignores us in favor of the more gullible, more easily amused "moe" fans.

The MMO industry has this same issue right now, hence the massive prevalence of the free-to-play with microtransactions model. The oldschool MMO gamers who prefer to pay a subscription fee to guarantee content updates, bugfixes and excellent customer support are being ditched in favor of the fickle, game-hopping, gullible F2P crowd.

The current model disincentivizes fostering loyalty in the customer base and promotes a revolving-door playerbase where folks sign up, play for a while, spend some money on the item mall, and then get bored and quit so that the bandwidth and server resources are thusly freed up for the next F2P kiddy.

This kind of "fast food entertainment" mentality is not restricted to social and multiplayer gaming alone. It's spread throughout film, literature and... yes, even anime and manga.

And here I was thinking I was the only one that felt that way...

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I like how frequent complaints about anime sucking now always generate an idealized anime from only a few years ago, as if it instead of realizing the grand perspective of things over the years as opposed to some kind of evil scheme to brainwash otaku into becoming mindless NEETs that has popped up over the last few years.

Welcome to the NHK?

[relentlessflame]

Just a note that the conversation about sci-fi/mecha has been split off. Please go to The death or evolution of the sci-fi and mecha genres for that conversation.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Shows like these still get made, though they are not necessarily financially successful. But don't try to pretend that there ever was such a high volume of them to begin with.

The latest fall season has Psycho-Pass and Shinsekai Yori. Neither of these shows are dependent on common anime tropes and devices.

There are reasons to be displeased with the direction of the industry, but I cannot agree with the idea that somehow these kinds of shows/movies/ova's don't still get made. It just means you aren't even trying to look in the right places.

Agreed with this, and everyone else that expressed similar sentiments.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

And here I was thinking I was the only one that felt that way...

You must be looking in the wrong places then, because people who think like you and syn are about as common as blades of grass.

I don't really agree that the number of such shows created each year keeps rising, though; I think the anime landscape has remained about the same since around 2007.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I don't really agree that the number of such shows created each year keeps rising, though; I think the anime landscape has remained about the same since around 2007.

If anything, I would say that recent years have brought more variety and more anime-original content as the market stabilized.

But I think the perception that it's "increasing" is probably driven by a few things:

1) the fact that it's "not going away" (i.e. it's not just a passing fad),
2) the fact that fans of the newer material are becoming more numerous as older fans naturally move on from anime over time (and the "new generation" may have different preferences/values deemed inferior),
3) the fact that shows often seem to try to "one-up" each other and similar themes are explored season after season (i.e. "we've already had so many like this"), and/or
4) the fatique of having another season arrive where they have to look long and hard to find something they want to watch, while it seems like the "other" genres they don't like are plentiful (i.e. the realization that "I'm not the main target audience any more, if I ever was in the first place").

I mean, honestly, syn's comment is basically a "kids these days" rant with "otaku" added to the mix for good measure. Or, as I've said before, "Why is the world changing even though my tastes have not?" (This later post in the same thread is also relevant, rather than repeating.)

I'm looking forward to 10 years from now when, no doubt, some will be ranting "they sure don't make anime like they did 10 years ago". This cycle of disillusionment is the only constant.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

If anything, I would say that recent years have brought more variety and more anime-original content as the market stabilized.

But I think the perception that it's "increasing" is probably driven by a few things:

1) the fact that it's "not going away" (i.e. it's not just a passing fad),

To be honest I'm not sure why this surprises anyone who thinks about it. If I don't have any good moe stuff to watch a particular season, I watch mediocre moe stuff. If I don't have something like Shinsekai Yori or Psychopass (love both), I catch up on the massive backlog of computer games and political science books I want to get through.

2) the fact that fans of the newer material are becoming more numerous as older fans naturally move on from anime over time (and the "new generation" may have different preferences/values deemed inferior),

I joined the anime fandom a few months before Haruhi kicked off the KyoAni boom in the west, so I not only have seen this happen, but remember the palpable distaste some older fans had for my tastes in shows - which, unlike them, I happened to be low key about. Even if I did accidentally get a bunch of club members hooked on Inukami and then support those who wanted our club to screen the series. (I slipped a fansub of the first episode in with a bunch of other fansubs I gave to a girl in the club who I knew from high school as a joke, she jabbed me in the ribs with a kendo stick the next time she saw me, people asked why, so she showed them the episode and some of them loved it… this stuff happens.)

I'm looking forward to 10 years from now when, no doubt, some will be ranting "they sure don't make anime like they did 10 years ago". This cycle of disillusionment is the only constant.

As a moe fan, I must stuff like EF, Sola, and Kurenai. So only 5-6 years. On the other hand, the last few years have given me Hanasaku Iroha, Ikoku Meiro no Croisee, and Hyouka among others so I'm not about to complain too much.

I do worry the fandom is getting too much of a "creepy pedo" image", but I have more sympathy for myself and my fellow moe fans in this regard than a lot of the people I hear complain about this, because frankly, they seem to spread the stereotype quite a bit.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

If anything, I would say that recent years have brought more variety and more anime-original content as the market stabilized.

But I think the perception that it's "increasing" is probably driven by a few things:

1) the fact that it's "not going away" (i.e. it's not just a passing fad),
2) the fact that fans of the newer material are becoming more numerous as older fans naturally move on from anime over time (and the "new generation" may have different preferences/values deemed inferior),
3) the fact that shows often seem to try to "one-up" each other and similar themes are explored season after season (i.e. "we've already had so many like this"), and/or
4) the fatique of having another season arrive where they have to look long and hard to find something they want to watch, while it seems like the "other" genres they don't like are plentiful (i.e. the realization that "I'm not the main target audience any more, if I ever was in the first place").

I mean, honestly, syn's comment is basically a "kids these days" rant with "otaku" added to the mix for good measure. Or, as I've said before, "Why is the world changing even though my tastes have not?" (This later post in the same thread is also relevant, rather than repeating.)

I'm looking forward to 10 years from now when, no doubt, some will be ranting "they sure don't make anime like they did 10 years ago". This cycle of disillusionment is the only constant.

Yea, honestly, every time I see threads like these, I don't even need to read them.

I've made this mistake before; circa 2009 I was pretty much convinced that anime is crap, blah blah blah, and in fact I initially came on AS to complain about all those evil "Adult game" adaptations and that they were too busy pandering to fictional strawman misogynistic otaku that spend all day creating offensive doujin, In truth was, that I really didn't put any effort into seeking anything else, leading to a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

But the thing is that I didn't go on the Internet complaining all the time that something has gone downhill with some elitist vibe to it. I just decided to not watch anime at all.

Although in my opinion there are definitely is an oversaturation of various types of shows; I seriously think that when people complain that there is only moe and moeshit, that they're pretty much close as possible to doing it wrong as can be.

I mean, where exactly does stuff like Usagi Drop, Colorful and Wandering Son fall under the spectrum of supposedly "serious grandoise imaginative stories" and "banal, boring, slice of life"? In the end, we are subjected to a false dichotomy that assumes certain elements are mutually exclusive, and that's so arrogant that not even I would try to make such claims.

Though this does remind me about a lot of complaints about video games. People will go on about the classics, of which many were actually badly designed and contained much fake difficulty. "Oh, back then if you got hit, you died. Games these days are carebear games!!" when failing to recognize that it's not the only indicator of gameplay quality or challenge. Honestly, I get the feeling that a lot of gaming nostalgia comes from people that never even bothered much, and I'm getting the feeling from anime.

In terms of the video game world, I term them "Second Rate Elitists". They are more knowledgeable than your average casual and may show legitimate skill, but they are not top tier and have many flaws-- yet that's what they'd want you to believe. They think that there view is the only one and that everyone who disagrees is a nub, ignorant, and would pollute the purity of the game. When they end up getting crushed, they are the first to blame everyone by themselves. (Game design is bad, game panders to casuals, cheater, etc)

I'd honestly think of some of any fandom, including the anime one to have traits of this. Pretty much every moe basher is calling moe fans nubs that should L2P (learn to play) and watch more meaningful and varied anime. When they actually don't. And even if they do, watching meaningful and deep anime does not make oneself meaningful and deep if they don't make use of anything. I should stop here before someone gets mad.

Many an ANN article reeks of this.

Anyhow,
"Did you not realize there was many generic and badly inspired games back then too? They were just obscure..."

And the same goes for anime. Yea, let's go back to the days of MD Geist and running out of color before the movies end. MD Geist is also sci-fi, so it must be inherently more imaginative and deep and shit.

I honestly can't even keep up with the shows, so really.... I can't see why I'd need to grow out of anime. I do see a need to grow up though.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

If anything, I would say that recent years have brought more variety and more anime-original content as the market stabilized.

But I think the perception that it's "increasing" is probably driven by a few things:

1) the fact that it's "not going away" (i.e. it's not just a passing fad),
2) the fact that fans of the newer material are becoming more numerous as older fans naturally move on from anime over time (and the "new generation" may have different preferences/values deemed inferior),
3) the fact that shows often seem to try to "one-up" each other and similar themes are explored season after season (i.e. "we've already had so many like this"), and/or
4) the fatique of having another season arrive where they have to look long and hard to find something they want to watch, while it seems like the "other" genres they don't like are plentiful (i.e. the realization that "I'm not the main target audience any more, if I ever was in the first place").

I mean, honestly, syn's comment is basically a "kids these days" rant with "otaku" added to the mix for good measure. Or, as I've said before, "Why is the world changing even though my tastes have not?" (This later post in the same thread is also relevant, rather than repeating.)

I'm looking forward to 10 years from now when, no doubt, some will be ranting "they sure don't make anime like they did 10 years ago". This cycle of disillusionment is the only constant.

I'm starting to pick up steam in being interested in anime once more after years of only have a cursory or sentimental interest. It's thanks to shows like Kingdom, Space Bros, Shin Sekai Yori, and Psycho Pass that I'm interested again (also watching Hunter x Hunter, but that's a remake so I don't count it as much). I think from having been in that mindset of 'wow anime has gone downhill' to now pulling myself out of it I can speak from both perspectives somewhat. I do think it has to do with what series get popular exposure and what the taste of the general anime fandom are. For instance, when I first became an anime fan I feel like the community was more geared towards my tastes in action, fantasy, etc. This made it easy to find those good shows and discuss them with people online. During the 'moe' era there may have been shows like these to watch, but the community itself was less focused on them, so, like you said in those posts you linked, you needed to dig a little deeper and be content with less interest to get by. I didn't have the energy to do so, giving the impression the shows didn't exist because I wasn't really looking hard enough. Now, I kind of feel there's a bit more balance showing in the anime community again. The moe shows are still popular, but the other genres seem to be making a resurgence, as well. This piqued my curiosity and now I am starting to look back on series I might have missed and have realized this 'community interest' may have blinded me to shows that match up to my personal interests.

[Syobon]

same, its like a drug, i find it harder and harder to become satisfied with a anime, i'm always searching for something more cuter and gorier.

[Shyni]

Wait, you want something both cute and gory?

Eh, there's probably quite a few shows like that. Although off the top of my head, I can only think of Higurashi.

Anyway, as for the topic, my interest in anime never really dies, but it's never all that strong, either.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I mean, honestly, syn's comment is basically a "kids these days" rant with "otaku" added to the mix for good measure.

Incorrect. It's a rant against shady business practices more than anything else.

I am not afraid of nor do I dislike things simply because they are new. Nor do I dislike things simply because they come from large corporations. There are plenty of new things I enjoy, and plenty of things from big companies I enjoy.

This is not me being a hipster or channeling my grandparents--this is a legitimate complaint against the quality of entertainment media falling in order to make more money.

The "fast food entertainment" has nothing to do with my age, the age of the content, the target demographic of the content or any of that. It has only to do with the quality of the content.

I'm sorry but you can't sit there and tell me that a shovelware F2P MMO is anywhere near the quality of a subscription-model game. They just aren't. They aren't even remotely close. Anime is no different--the industry just decided that they'd rather focus on easier-to-please customers (which happen to be more numerous, and have more disposable income) than the highly discerning fan.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Anime is no different--the industry just decided that they'd rather focus on easier-to-please customers (which happen to be more numerous, and have more disposable income) than the highly discerning fan.

Except you're acting as if it's something recent when it's always been the case.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by totoum

Except you're acting as if it's something recent when it's always been the case.

Citation needed.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Citation needed.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

It's just depressing. What happened to the shows like Planetes, Starship Operators, Eve no Jikan, Noein, Dennou Coil? The simple answer is that discerning fans are more expensive to please, so the industry ignores us in favor of the more gullible, more easily amused "moe" fans.

If that's not what you you meant then I apologize for having misunderstood you.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Citation needed.

Easy.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I don't think I'm growing out of anime so much as I simply dislike the state of the industry currently. Japan never managed to crawl completely out of their economic implosion and it's showing quite visibly in the number of otakubait shows that are released every year--and this keeps rising.

There is no such thing as an entertainment industry out there that does not focus on the lowest common denominator. Anime has never been different in that regard. Yes, what's popular might change, and with that your interests may diverge with the industry at large... Yet, entertainment for more "discerning" fans has always been a battle of uncovering the raw gems, which yes, still exist almost every season. There is also a consideration of trying to broaden one's horizons.

[synaesthetic]

That's kinda what I mean. Why did very high quality shows exist not too long ago, but now the number of high quality shows has decreased, or are focused on the specific subset of the anime fanbase that is considered a "safe bet?"

Maybe it's just that the "safe bet" customers five or six years ago liked the same things I do, and maybe the current "safe bet" customers like something different, but it seems kinda a short period of time for the customer base to change so radically.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I'm sorry but you can't sit there and tell me that a shovelware F2P MMO is anywhere near the quality of a subscription-model game. They just aren't. They aren't even remotely close. Anime is no different--the industry just decided that they'd rather focus on easier-to-please customers (which happen to be more numerous, and have more disposable income) than the highly discerning fan.

Please go ahead and list what f2p MMOs are trash. Guild Wars 2 is a recent one, and I think it's very well designed. F2P doesn't mean trash-- the market is shifting and people don't want to spend hundreds of hours feeling compelled to grind a way or feel like they're wasting their sub fee.

That's kinda what I mean. Why did very high quality shows exist not too long ago, but now the number of high quality shows has decreased, or are focused on the specific subset of the anime fanbase that is considered a "safe bet?"

Cherry picking the top shows of a previous era and focusing on the mediocre stuff of right now hardly seems fair. I'd challenge you to provide evidence that good show:bad show ratio in any era has increased or decreased, and even if taste is subjective, I'd say that you'd be hard pressed to claim said ratio is lower.

[synaesthetic]

The market is shifting, all right--shifting for the worse.

As for which F2P MMOs are trash, it'd be easier to list the ones that aren't trash... which I can't even think of any offhand. Maybe LOTRO, which was subscription-based to begin with.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That's kinda what I mean. Why did very high quality shows exist not too long ago, but now the number of high quality shows has decreased, or are focused on the specific subset of the anime fanbase that is considered a "safe bet?"

Maybe it's just that the "safe bet" customers five or six years ago liked the same things I do, and maybe the current "safe bet" customers like something different, but it seems kinda a short period of time for the customer base to change so radically.

There's still none "safe bets" animes being made, you either don't think highly of them or they're not in genres/demographics that interest you.