This really is off the top of my head but; has anyone ever tried transcribing the epitaph in Katakana? Given Kinzo's love of western culture and the typical purpose of Katakana, I imagine it would be worth a look at least.
BTW, I'm not too good with Kanji and Hiragana and stuff, but doesn't 高 = Takai, which can be taken to mean "The next life" or something to that effect?
I'm not sure if it is important or not but I'm going to transcribe it for the heck of it, and because I'm bored. I think this should be correct but I'm not 100% sure about everything, anyway I double checked some parts that were actually read in the anime, too bad they didn't read the whole thing.
natsukashiki, kokyou o tsurameku ayu no kawa.
ougonkyou o mezasumono yo, kore o kudarite kagi o sagase.
kawa o kudareba yagate sato ari.
sono sato nite futari ga kuchinishi kishi o sagure.
soko ni ougonkyou e no kagi ga nemuru.
kagi o te ni seshimono wa, ika ni shitagai te ougonkyou e tabidatsubeshi.
daiichi no ban ni, kagi no erabishi rokunin o ikenie ni sasage yo.
daini no ban ni, nokosareshimono wa yorisou futari o hikisake.
daisan no ban ni, nokosareshimono wa homare takaki waga na o tatae yo.
daiyon no ban ni, atama o egurite korose.
daigo no ban ni, mune o egurite korose.
dairoku no ban ni, hara o egurite korose.
dainana no ban ni, hiza o egurite korose.
daihachi no ban ni, ashi o egurite korose.
daikyuu no ban ni, majo wa yomigaeri. daremo iki nokore hashinai.
daijuu no ban ni, tabi wa owari. ougon no sato ni itaru darou.
majo wa kenja o tatae, yotsu no takara o sazuke darou.
hitotsu wa, ougonkyou no subete no ougon.
hitotsu wa, subete no shisha no tamashii o yomigaerase.
hitotsu wa, ushinatta aisura mo yomigaeraseru.
hitotsu wa, majo o eien ni nemuri nitsukaseyou.
yasuraka ni nemure. saiai majo beatoriiche.
__________________
Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-08-12 at 06:45.
Reason: small correction, because Jessica in Ep1 read it wrong
It does? I don't know what any of that means
Could you spell it out for me?
__________________
The Meta World reminds you that the Delicious Companion Burger will never threaten to stab you, and, in fact, cannot speak.
In the event that the Delicious Companion Burger does speak, The Meta World urges you to disregard it's advice.
First, the reason he even decided this was possible is this: 鮎の川 ayu is a homophone with aiu. If you change it to あいうの川, kawa looks like a table and therefore becomes the table of kana.
Then, kagi wo sagase becomes kagyou sagase (search in the ka row) because kagiwo sounds like kagyou.
The reasoning from here on, however falls apart, because ri does not look like the multiplcation table nor can it be pronounced like it.
What he actually did to get the solution:
What he did was he looked at the K row of the Japanese alphabet, か き く け こ.
Then he took only the two to get かく
He decided that to make a word he needed to read はち as や (like as in 八つ)
隠しやし
then take 岸 but delete the end part
隠し屋敷
It's in the Kuwadorian then, according to this theory.
The major problem is that it seems he wants it to be there, the way he is reading everything. You can tell he had this in his mind before changing everything to fit it.
MY Kanji-fu is weak but in "At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.", could "the six" be referring to Rokkenjima itself? According to the kanji discussion, its name means "six house/property island".
Key? Does "軒" also mean key? I always thought it stands for house.
No, 鍵 can be read/pronounced as "ken" too, the same with 軒. Though the meaning is different overall, as 鍵 as "けん" is actually piano keys (i.e, used mainly in music. Too bad my English related to music is nearly 0 to be able to say it properly. ). Anyway, the point is that he put the general meaning of kanji 鍵 which is "key" to change 軒 as both can be read as "ken".
__________________
Last edited by Natsuki Hyuga; 2009-09-07 at 07:11.
Reason: BLARGH, Net breakdown ;_;
鮎の川 = あいう...の||| = the kana table
鍵を探せ = か行探せ = search in KaKiKuKeKo
里 = the multiplication table
二人 = ニニン = 2*2 = 4(Shi)
にし = 2*4 = 8(Hachi(Ya))
岸 = KiShi
KaKiKuKeKo Shi Hachi(Ya) KiShi...
KaKuShiYaShiKi
Spoiler for IMO:
I get how you got it, but "kakushi yashiki" doesn't tell you the location of the gold. It doesn't say a single word where that "hidden mansion" is. And the epitaph is supposed to lead you to the exact location of the hidden gold. So something like "kakushi yashiki" doesn't make much sense as long as it doesn't tell you where that "kakushi yashiki" is.
From the latest anime episode, Eva's thoughts that we were allowed to see were regarding the true meanings of:
-鮎の川 (ayu no kawa) Sweetfish river
-里 (sato) Village
-岸 (kishi) Shore
Those might be the only important clues needed to solve.
As matteas said, herculysse's theory does not tell you where the hidden mansion is so I give it a 10 out of 10 for creativity but I don't think it's the right answer.
So I'm trying to figure this out.. I mean, the part about the twilights. And yes, I know this could all be pretty stupid sounding..
Spoiler:
At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
Maybe the key is either the family crest or just whatever the murderer wants.
At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high.
I noticed it says "those who remain" tear apart and "those who remain" praise. So whoever "those who remain" are, they kill on the second twilight and die on the third? This could just be an out there guess, and I'm probably wron.. But anyway, I think that would rule in Kinzo and Genji, since they both greatly honor Beatrice.. I dunno. xD;
Also..
At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
Could that be Kanon and Shannon? Not only are they close to each other, but they're close to Jessica and George. So by "two", it could mean "two couples" or something, but they're also close to each other, so.. :P
At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill.
At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.
Maybe this stands for what the specific people think most with/use most/are associated with? Like, the stomach could be cooking (or just being a fatty), heart could be love, head could be logic, and so on.. or I could be totally off.
At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold.
Allright, it looks like studio DEEN decided to cut all the parts that concerns the epitaph solution.
Spoiler for anime episode 14:
There was a very lengthy discussion between the adults that led Eva to the solution. She didn't solve the riddle alone, if she didn't get all those helps from various people she probably wouldn't go that far.
This is like what happened with episode1 were the discussion about the epitaph (during the pic nic) was almost completely cut.
Anyway this thread was created mainly for the sake of those anime viewers that still want to know all the hints related to the epitaph that aren't shown in the anime. So this was kinda expected (although not to such extent...).
So I'm going to summarize the discussion that was cut and the subsequent Eva's reasonings. I'm not going to post the whole thing like I did for episode1 because this time is waaay longer and there's a lot of chit chat in between. I will quote the most relevant sentences, as usual with the translation provided by witch hunt
Spoiler for Game Eisode 3 Epitaph discussion:
The first to speak is Kyrie who says that the riddle can be split into 3 parts:
- The first part is the block that explains how to find the key
- The second part comprises the 10 twilights to reach the village of gold
- The third part is what happens after the golden land is reached and the description of the four "prizes"
Quote:
Natsuhi: "I see. It can be divided into three parts about the key, the Golden Land, and the Golden Land's treasure."
The adults then discuss about what the "beloved homeland" should be. They say that Odawara is where Kinzo was born, but they all agree that it isn't where he lived. In other words no one of them thinks that Odawara is the "homeland".
Quote:
Rosa: "Right. This probably isn't Odawara. From what I've heard, he had a very fun time as a youth"
It is revealed that Eva even went as far as going to the actual spot (Odawara) in the past to look for a river. But the town has changed drastically since Kinzo's time so much that it isn't even recognizable as the same city anymore.
The topic changes to the river. Kyries suggests that it might not actually be a river in its literal sense
Quote:
Kyrie: "It may be that this isn't a 'river' with water flowing down it. ...The 'sweetfish river' might be some kind of metaphor. ......What kind of image does the word sweetfish have?"
Hideyoshi tells something at this point that wasn't given much attention at the time, but it looks like that was the trigger that helped Eva reach the solution later
Quote:
Hideyoshi: ".........Sweetfish are like salmon. They're freshwater fish, but they go out into the ocean right after they're born. And when they get big, they return to the river to live there, and then they spawn there and end their lives there"
At this point Rosa advances one of her theories. She says that the image of the river makes her think about a family tree. So The sweetfish river is actually the ushiromiya family tree and if you follow it down you get to Maria "真里亞" which has a '里' [village] character in it.
However this theory didn't convince the adults, Rosa included, because:
Quote:
Rosa: "Father told me to give Maria a completely different name. I just made it into Maria on my own. Father was very mad about that. ......If you think about the details there, it's very hard to imagine that he would reference Maria's name in his precious epitaph about who would succeed his wealth and inheritance."
so they go back again from start discussing about the homeland and why it is "beloved". They reiterate that Kinzo would never describe Odawara with such an adjective. Kyrie in the end summarizes the thoughts with this sentence:
Quote:
Kyrie: "I believe that this word 'beloved' here at the beginning, refers to a place full of very important memories to Father"
Kyrie continues by saying that she can't get what the "village" is, but she thinks it is something you would understand automatically if you knew what the river was. Eva suggests to look at the problem with an open mind, it doesn't need to be a real river:
Quote:
Eva "......It might be better if you don't think too deeply and be flexible, holding an abstract image of a river where fish swim, or something flowing ...up or down"
And this is where Kyrie thinks that maybe the parts are four and not three:
Quote:
Kyrie: "There's actually four parts. ......'Go down the sweetfish river', 'find the key to the Golden Land', 'journey to the Golden Land', and 'the treasure of the Golden Land'."
The discussion then switches to the ten twilights. Althought Kyrie thinks that the without the "key" it's impossible to progress any further. She thinks that similarly to the river the key is also a metaphor and so are the various "killings". Finally she reaches a very interesting interpretation:
Quote:
Kyrie: "This key points towards a certain group of six people. ......No, we should say it points to a certain group of six things, ......if this doesn't mean a literal command to offer sacrifices. For example, it could be an anagram."
Kyrie's theory was then discussed and analyzed. The "key to the golden land" is a 6 characters word. The whole puzzle is a word play. What the ten twilights describe are the steps you need to take by removing letters from a starting sentence.
At the first twilight you remove the six characters
However Kyrie is at loss about what the sentence to remove the characters from is.
Kyrie then analyzes the second twilight:
Quote:
Kyrie: "...At the second twilight, there are 'those who remain'. ......Which means that, at the very least, that 'something' has a limited number of characters. You could read it like it's telling you to continue with the remaining characters after the six characters are removed."
In other words Kyrie thinks that the "remaining" mentioned in the epitaph are the "remaining characters" left in the original sentence after you remove the six from the key.
But there's still the problem of where to find this original sentence so the discussion ends with Kyrie questioning her own theory.
Quote:
Kyrie: "And yet, we don't know what this 'something' is, even though it should have been shown to us at the beginning. ...Were we wrong even to assume that this is playing with letters...?"
This is where the adult discussion ends
However Eva still doesn't want to give up. When Rosa approaches her, Eva tells her that she can't get why everyone is so relaxed, it's a chance to steal the headship from Krauss and she thinks that if Rosa has something to tell she should spit it put. Reluctantly Rosa decides to tell Eva something that has been bugging her for a while.
Rosa: "Umm, ......this word, Golden Land. The word Golden Land comes up several times."
Eva: "So what? Do you get some keywords by splitting up the characters in 'Golden Land'?"
Rosa: "Um, umm, that's not it. ......Look, isn't just the tenth twilight strange?"
Eva: "............Huh? ......ah."
Rosa: "Even though they're all written the 'Golden Land' (黄金郷 - Ougonkyou), for some reason, only this place has the 'village of gold' (黄金の郷 - Ougon no kyou/sato)".
He went to all the trouble of mixing in the character 'の'. It vaguely bugged me that it's only said differently here... .........ah, umm, ...it's not like it means anything. This is Father we're talking about. It could just be a coincidental change in how he said the word."
Eva: "....................."
Eva's reasonings:
Spoiler for Novel Episode3 epitaph:
I kept this part separated because it is probably more important than the adult's discussion. In this part Eva reelaborates all that it's been said so far and in the end she finds the solution. In other words the chances that Eva's reasoning are correct are very high. During the whole scene Eva is talking in her mind to her younger self.
For simplicity I will use "Y" for young eva and "E" for Eva. I'm quoting here the sentence that are probably the most relevant:
Quote:
Y: "The 'beloved hometown' definitely won't betray our expectations. ......The only past that Father held dear was his years as a boy."
Y: "Think of a river. A river. Linking it with a 'family tree' wasn't a bad idea. Try thinking about how to link a river with something else along those lines......"
E: "......Not a river? Even though the sweetfish can't swim in it if it isn't a river? Oh, but maybe if sweetfish could swim, that means it's tied to the ocean...... Didn't my husband even say that, while they are river fish, they can go out into the ocean... ......... ............To the ocean. .....................No, ...but, ......Huh...?"
With this last thought Eva has an epiphany about what the river actually is however she's still to excited and a little confused.
Quote:
Y: "There should be a library somewhere around here. If you investigate, you can make sure. ......If that was the 'sweetfish river', ......... .........And if the key might be a six character word... ..................Was the key really resting in that river?"
E: "I, I don't know, I don't know. ...Anyways, I have to search in an atlas... But, even if I know that, I don't know 'from what' I should take the six characters..."
Y: "......You really don't know? Think deeply. Don't think of it like it's something as massive as the riddle of the epitaph, but like it's a child's riddle. ......Men are always children, no matter how old they get. Even if Father has advanced into old age, that doesn't change the fact that he is essentially a child inside his heart. .........Throw away your awe of Father."
E: "......Riddles. .....Worthless, infantile. ............Huh, .........ah. .......I'm sure that was, ...what was it, ......umm, umm...... ...I'm sure, if my memory isn't wrong, ......that's probably, umm... No, I don't have to rely on my vague memory. I should be able to figure that out immediately by searching in a library."
Okay here comes the most interesting part (imho), this is where Eva who has already figured out what the river is, is checking her theory looking at a book inside the room that was used to store books in the guesthouse (it wasn't supposed to be an actual library despite what studio Deen has shown to us).
Quote:
E (looking at the book): "Uu. .........This is, a 'sweetfish river'...? I see... This is what the sweetfish river means."
E: "If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village... By village, does it mean a town or something? That's an area of dense population, so there could be many of those..."
Y: "Why have you stopped thinking?! If you don't like it, why not quit...? Why not just hand over the Ushiromiya headship to Kyrie?!"
E: "I, ...I don't want to... I will become the head. ...This is, umm, my first and last chance... ......What is '里' (village)? What does it mean?! If you go down the 'river', there's a 里......?! ............ah, .........
`aaaaaaaahhh......!!"
This part is consistent with what the anime has shown. Until Eva only had this idea about the river she was excited but not really sure. When she finds out what the village is it's like she's been struck by a lighting. But it gets even better:
Quote:
Y: ".....In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. ......It's 'shore' (岸). Understand?"
E: "I, I, I understand...! 'Shore', ......'shore'.........!"
Right before my eyes, ......the pieces that I hadn't been able to understand at all, ......began to *snap*, ......*snap*, into place, all by themselves...... I couldn't even remember to close my open mouth. ...My throat grew completely dry...
In other words once Eva found out the true meaning of the village, she was automatically able to find out what the shore was (and I guess the "two" as well). She also found out the key, however there was a little problem:
Quote:
E: "...But this isn't six characters at all. ...I can state that this is the answer without a doubt, but this doesn't reach six characters at all...!"
Y: "Did you stop thinking again? Then, think of a way you could read it with six characters. If you can't think of one, then research it. .....There has to be an answer. You must not doubt that."
E: "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6... .....Oooh, ...s, six characters.. ......I, ......I found it. ...This, .........is, th, ......the key to the Golden Land.........!!"
Y: "Yes. This is, the key to the Golden Land. ......The key, to our childhood ......The only keyhole to stick that key in, is that place. That, is definitely what offers the sacrifices. Now, do you understand............?"
E: "Whaa, ..........whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...!!!"
Unfortunately this is where the stream of consciousness ends and we are suddenly transported to when Eva is about to cross the door of the room with the gold. However there might still be some useful hints hidden in the following lines:
Quote:
"This way? ......Go this way............? they are, ......inviting me to go this way........."
My heart leapt. ...Because there, ............gaping wide, ...was an opened mouth in the eerie darkness.
"Wh, .........what's this... What is this......?!"
When I strained my eyes, peering into the darkness, I saw something that looked like a light switch. ......In addition, there was a switch with open and close written on it. When I resolutely pushed the switch, rough lights, like you'd find in a coal mine, turned on sporadically, making a staircase that stretched underground come hazily into vision... It was creepy how it now looked even more gloomy with the lights turned on. Other than the light switch, there was also a switch with open and close written on it. ...It would probably open or close this, but on the slight chance that the open part might be broken, I might be closed up in this creepy underground area for all eternity... So for the time being, I didn't touch the open/close switch, .....and as I readied my gun again, I slowly went down the stairs.
Because the ceiling was very high, it didn't feel cramped. On the contrary, it felt as though a cool breeze was blowing upwards, and that creepiness even felt like an aura... As I readied my gun, and carefully stared forwards, ......I went down the stairs......
The walls, the stairs, the lights, ...all of them were very old-fashioned. ...It's easy to suspect that this had been made at the same time that the mansion had been constructed on this island. There were cracks in the ceiling, and water clung to the walls, constantly dripping down. That water fell into a gutter that had been set up alongside the stairs, then quickly and silently flowed into the underground darkness. As though it was telling me to go faster...
The staircase kept turning back on itself. I don't know how far down I've gone, but I think it's much deeper than one floor. And eventually, ............a rough, metal door showed itself. And there, characters had been written in a dark red paint. ...They had probably been written a long time ago.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end, and you should reach the village of gold
My heart, which was already about to explode, jumped about even more as soon as I recognized those deep-red characters...
"There's no mistake... This is the last stop. ........Father's, ......Golden Land...!!"
I end here for now, I will probably add something else after episode 15 and I'll add my personal thoughts. Until then have fun with the epitaph!