How do you feel about the way things like rape, torture and slavery are justified?

[EroKing]

Pretty much what BWTraveller said.

I don't believe they try to justify such characters, unless there are official comments from the authors that you'd like to share with examples of such series. There are always high demand for asshole characters, so all they are doing is catering to their needs. Try checking out any Otome Isekai manhwa with a "Villainess" in the title...

You'll find way higher content of doujins with themes containing NTR, rape, incest getting produced compared to vanilla ones, because those sell. Just because games can be filled with gore and violence does not mean the company is justifying such things. At the end of the day, if you can't stomach such things due to it not being to your tastes, then you just need to stay away from them.

Imo this thread should just be locked. There really isn't anything worth to debate/talk about when the OP can't even realize basic things as to different people having different perceptions.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

As I said, a very large portion has to be recognized as not "justification" but actually a crucial point. There's a huge market for indulgence of the oppressed victim's fantasy of oppressing their oppressor. The fantasy doesn't work if the enslaved/raped/tortured party isn't an oppressor or traitor; the audience isn't looking for an excuse to hurt a character, they're looking for a character that they would enjoy hurting.

In other words, it's a revenge fantasy, not a violence fantasy per se, and there's a difference. That makes sense. I do think this is a good explanation for something like Shield Hero, for instance, which is very much centered on a persecution complex.

Originally Posted by Question

The thread is to discuss why authors who have their MC do these things almost always go out of their way to justify it with cheap copouts like "the girls were evil, so there was nothing wrong with the MC raping them" and "the kingdom was oppressive, so the MC actually improved things by killing the king and taking over".

The second example isn't necessarily that much like the first.

You could definitely justify a revolution if the kingdom is truly evil and it's a means of defending the people and they follow-through on that. If you have to take a side between a truly evil kingdom and those working to overthrow it, there's a least room for moral ambiguity there (and supporting the status quo is taking a side). Of course you can't just retcon that into a story or cover it in passing -- you have to make it a key point so that people can understand the situation and understand why the protagonist was doing a necessary thing for the greater good. That wouldn't necessarily be the same as the other examples you listed, at least in my mind.

Now, the first example to me is different, and I'd tend to see any attempt at justification as a pretext. But there could still be a reason to insert that pretext. The reason BWTraveller gave could be one such pretext -- because the fantasy is about revenge, not about violence for its own sake. It's still not a "good justification" as if it makes it morally okay, but the pretext may be necessary for the story the author wants to tell. I'd even concede that the fact that someone could "turn evil" when consumed by the desire for revenge could make for an interesting story, if told in the right way. (There could be a difference between a justification a protagonist gives to themselves and whether the author is trying to justify what they're doing. Usually the rest of the framing would give hints about the latter.)


As with the other thread, I think it may be more productive if we start talking about specific examples rather than generalizations. Then we can at least say whether the justification provided is actually a "cheap copout" or not.

[serenade_beta]

Probably just watched too much Narou
Not suggested

[Belkov]

Originally Posted by EroKing

Pretty much what BWTraveller said.

Just because games can be filled with gore and violence does not mean the company is justifying such things. At the end of the day, if you can't stomach such things due to it not being to your tastes, then you just need to stay away from them.

I'm new to Manga and Anime and don't have anything of benefit to add to this conversation apart from this perspective.

I used to love horror movies, not the safe, bland commercial stuff but the cult ones from the seventies and eighties. However, now I can't stomach them and most horror movies now. With my newfound interest in Anime, I watched the first episode of Tokyo Ghoul and decided not to continue because like horror movies, it is a genre that I no longer like.

I echo the above comment. If anybody doesn't like or are offended by particular elements in a Manga or Anime series then they shouldn't watch or read it.

[Chiibi]

Bitch, I don't care because they're not real and nobody is hurt....except maybe triggered kids on Twitter who shouldn't have been triggering themselves in the first place.

I don't watch or read things I am too uncomfortable with and I suggest you do the same.

[Lex79]

Some days ago I read the first volume of the official translation of the novel Oversummoned, overpowered and over it, and at the end of the volume

Spoiler for protagonist's character development:

turned into the kind of ruthless and amorale individual that was mentioned in this thread, going on in an indiscriminate massacro.

Interestingly enough, reactions from readers in the official forum were mostly negative, and the series is apparently cancelled, reinforcing the idea that these kind of stories aren't too popular.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Lex79

Interestingly enough, reactions from readers in the official forum were mostly negative, and the series is apparently cancelled, reinforcing the idea that these kind of stories aren't too popular.

You need a sociopath to be charismatic which I doubt the average LN (or narou) author can really pull off. Usually it ends up stuck in edgelord or chunni tropes.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Lex79

Some days ago I read the first volume of the official translation of the novel Oversummoned, overpowered and over it, and at the end of the volume

Spoiler for protagonist's character development:

turned into the kind of ruthless and amorale individual that was mentioned in this thread, going on in an indiscriminate massacro.

Interestingly enough, reactions from readers in the official forum were mostly negative, and the series is apparently cancelled, reinforcing the idea that these kind of stories aren't too popular.

Originally Posted by stray

You need a sociopath to be charismatic which I doubt the average LN (or narou) author can really pull off. Usually it ends up stuck in edgelord or chunni tropes.

I can't speak for the reference in question since I haven't read that story, but I don't think they need to be charismatic but they do need to be interesting and their behavior does need to be believable. There has to be a series of actions that the character takes and/or is subjected to that make you think "Yeah, things were kind of moving in this direction," even if the big bad that they do is still shocking.

This is why a character like Jinx from Arcane works so well and Daernerys turn not so much. Here's an awesome character deep dive, that honestly should be watched if you're even just remotely interested in understanding how to write a compelling character arc.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/pymojkDct2A

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Also, the creator of the video calls it madness, but what Jinx goes through is almost textbook psychosis.

[stray]

When I say "charismatic" I'm thinking more like Dexter Morgan or Patrick Bateman; someone who is predisposed to sociopathic behavior. I'm not talking about someone who 'snaps' or 'cracks' or something like that. Though I guess there's ways to work that in too, like Lucy & Nyu from Elfen Lied.

Anyway if we're talking isekai its 95% power fantasy which I think is sort of limiting for better or worse.