Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai! Ren - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by teja208

@Klashikari I hear you, I guess our views aren't that different after all.

However, I still see Shinka as the one responsible breaking Deko's off switch by pretending to be Mori Summer in front of her even though she already graduate from it. Actually, another way of looking at it is Shinka made a mistake with her decision to capitalize Deko's devotion to Mori Summer in order to manupulate Deko into assisting her with the SC campaign.

I think you're being unfair to Shinka here.

Three points:

1. Shinka wasn't pretending to be Mori Summer. She is Mori Summer. That's her persona creation. She owns that just as much as Terry Bollea owns "Hulk Hogan".

2. Shinka put on the Mori Summer persona out of consideration for Deko, and to reward her/thank her for her help. It was an act of friendship and kindness.

3. Shinka "manipulated" Deko because the alternative was putting up with Deko potentially disrupting her entire campaign.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think you're being unfair to Shinka here.

Three points:

1. Shinka wasn't pretending to be Mori Summer. She is Mori Summer. That's her persona creation. She owns that just as much as Terry Bollea owns "Hulk Hogan".

2. Shinka put on the Mori Summer persona out of consideration for Deko, and to reward her/thank her for her help. It was an act of friendship and kindness.

3. Shinka "manipulated" Deko because the alternative was putting up with Deko potentially disrupting her entire campaign.

Yes, I understand why she did what she did. I'm not saying Shinka is a horrible person toward Deko, but her own demise was due to bad decision making without taking into account of Deko's feelings or the way Deko could misinterpret her acting as Mori Summer.

1. She was Mori Summer. Not anymore. I understand her wanting to impress Deko after all she had done to help her however..

2. ...there are other ways to show your gratitude. Shinka chose poorly to say the least. She also soften up on Deko at worse possible time. If you ask me, it would've been batter after she won the election.

3. Alternative which may lead to a better outcome. There are other ways of dealing with someone as annoying as Deko, but we learned from how this episode turned out that pretending to be Mori Summer will definitely lead to a bad end. Of course, there is no way we can anticipate that before this episode. I admit Deko's actions are quite difficult to predict.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by teja208

Yes, I understand why she did what she did. I'm not saying Shinka is a horrible person toward Deko, but her own demise was due to bad decision making without taking into account of Deko's feelings or the way Deko could misinterpret her acting as Mori Summer.

1. She was Mori Summer. Not anymore. I understand her wanting to impress Deko after all she had done to help her however..

2. ...there are other ways to show your gratitude. Shinka chose poorly to say the least. She also soften up on Deko at worse possible time. If you ask me, it would've been batter after she won the election.

3. Alternative which may lead to a better outcome. There are other ways of dealing with someone as annoying as Deko, but we learned from how this episode turned out that pretending to be Mori Summer will definitely lead to a bad end. Of course, there is no way we can anticipate that before this episode. I admit Deko's actions are quite difficult to predict.

You make your points as if Shinka is the only the one in control of her own actions while Dekomori is just a force of nature that just needs to be dealt with.

How is Shinka supposed to know Dekomori couldn't separate fantasy from reality when she was perfectly capable of it before that? Why not hold Dekomori responsible for her own actions?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by teja208

1. She was Mori Summer. Not anymore. I understand her wanting to impress Deko after all she had done to help her however..

Nyet, she IS Mori Summer, she is trying to supress that part of herself to move forward but it keeps showing now and then because she STILL believes all of that, even though she is embarrased to admit it.

2. ...there are other ways to show your gratitude. Shinka chose poorly to say the least. She also soften up on Deko at worse possible time. If you ask me, it would've been batter after she won the election.

IMO it was very sweet that she showed her Mori Summer persona to Deko, she was thrutful and open and anything else would have been petty manipulation.

3. Alternative which may lead to a better outcome. There are other ways of dealing with someone as annoying as Deko, but we learned from how this episode turned out that pretending to be Mori Summer will definitely lead to a bad end. Of course, there is no way we can anticipate that before this episode. I admit Deko's actions are quite difficult to predict.

You word it like it changing the speech without consulting with Nibutani is that ok thing to do when IRL that sort of things are to be discussed when you are part of a team, anything else is acting like a brat that wants to do things her way or no way.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

You make your points as if Shinka is the only the one in control of her own actions while Dekomori is just a force of nature that just needs to be dealt with.

How is Shinka supposed to know Dekomori couldn't separate fantasy from reality when she was perfectly capable of it before that? Why not hold Dekomori responsible for her own actions?

I'm not trying to say Deko is free from all the blame, but you also can't deny that Shinka is lying to Deko by pretending that she's still Mori Summer causing the latter to mistakenly believe that her idol has officially return and ready to spread her teachings to the entire school. Of course, Yuuta and Rikka is also partially blamed for coming up with the idea.

What I'm saying is Deko wasn't 100% to blame for what happen. I guess about 70% at most. Shinka 20%. Yuuta and Rikka 10%.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by teja208

I'm not trying to say Deko is free from all the blame, but you also can't deny that Shinka is lying to Deko by pretending that she's still Mori Summer causing the latter to mistakenly believe that her idol has officially return and ready to spread her teachings to the entire school. Of course, Yuuta and Rikka is also partially blamed for coming up with the idea.

What I'm saying is Deko wasn't 100% to blame for what happen. I guess about 70% at most. Shinka 20%. Yuuta and Rikka 10%.

The reason why Shinka bothers about it all though, is because of Dekomori. She is like a stalker to her. The only part that I think Shinka made wrong was to take Dekomori to the stage with her. From the moment I saw Shinka taking her with her to the publicum, I knew that it would not end well.

[KLGChaos]

Shinka made a mistake going into Mori Summer mode. I don't believe she still believes that all that stuff is real. She may still have FUN with it, despite being in denial, but she can obviously separate fantasy from reality.

That doesn't seem to be the case with Dekomori and Rikka, which is the root cause of the problem. As I've said before, if this was the real world, they'd most likely be admitted to mental hospitals.

Of course, it doesn't help that all development from last year seems to have been completely thrown out the window for the typical return to status quo. Dekomori and Rikka are just as bad as they were in the beginning of last season and their actions disrupt not only their lives, but the lives of others as well. I'm finding myself in the same exact state as I was last year about the same time-- I need to see these character break their chunni occasionally and some recognition that they are just playing a game, or I'm not going to be able to believe they aren't just completely insane.

I felt that at the end of last year, they did things decently by giving a big reason for Rikka's problems-- her denial of her dad's death (though a situation that still required counseling, imo), and showing just how badly it was causing problems for others, leading the Yuuta calling her out on it. I know some people really didn't like it, but I felt it was necessary for the characters to develop and take a step forward.

This whole season just feels like it went backward, Yuuta feels less like a boyfriend and more like a father (despite Rikka's jealousy) and I'm still trying to figure out how Rikka's going to survive in the real world with her problems.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by teja208

Yes, I understand why she did what she did. I'm not saying Shinka is a horrible person toward Deko, but her own demise was due to bad decision making without taking into account of Deko's feelings or the way Deko could misinterpret her acting as Mori Summer.

I disagree. I think Shinka had good reason to think that Deko was more "with it" than this, and wouldn't go completely crazy simply because she gets to see the Mori Summer persona up close and personal.

Deko is able to turn it off and on at will, so Shinka naturally thought that Deko at least had the good sense to realize that all of this stuff is just fantasy, with clear boundaries over when its good and/or Ok to slip into it.

If I was in Shinka's shoes, I would also be inclined to think there's no danger in letting Deko see a little bit of Mori Summer, much like how Yuuta sees no danger in letting Rikka see a little bit of the Dark Flame Master.

Shnka was clearly mistaken there, but it's a very understandable mistake that I don't think she should be faulted for. Deko really ought to know better, and to have more control of her emotions than this.

1. She was Mori Summer. Not anymore.

No, she's still Mori Summer. She just did what Yuuta does all the time - Briefly slip into the old Chuuni persona because it seems fun and/or appropriate in the moment. Shinka also did this in Episode 1 during the big group fight against Touka, IIRC.

I understand her wanting to impress Deko after all she had done to help her however..

2. ...there are other ways to show your gratitude.

Sure, but this is the most fitting one. I thought it was a very sweet thing for Shinka to do, which is partly why I wasn't fond of Deko's actions in the outing scene.

Originally Posted by teja208

I'm not trying to say Deko is free from all the blame, but you also can't deny that Shinka is lying to Deko by pretending that she's still Mori Summer causing the latter to mistakenly believe that her idol has officially return and ready to spread her teachings to the entire school.

No, she's not lying. She is Mori Summer. She expects Deko to have enough sense to realize that Mori Summer is just her old Chuuni persona that she can slip on and off like Yuuta does the Dark Flame Master - And like Yuuta, it's a persona she will be using sparingly.

[mangamuscle]

I have no idea how well received this chapter was in Japan, but this is one of the few times in my life where I saw an episode and I thought it needs to be redone (the ending at least) before the BD disc release. Not that it was awful, but that it was a betrayal of the whole mood of the series and they can't blame the original LN since we all know Deko is a fabrication of the anime team.

[Kismet-chan]

While I was little irked over what Deko did... I'm not livid about it because Deko was genuine in her actions and adoration. Until Shinka had a negative reaction to her book being read aloud, Deko wasn't scheming or anything. Her intentions were all legit. If you look at things from her perspective, it's like, "I thought my idol had appeared before me, finally! I wanted everyone to realize her greatness! But... she denied the gospel she was supposed to have written."

Do I have any less sympathy for Shinka because of this thought? Hell, no. What should have been an easily obtainable dream for her (that would've looked good when applying to universities AND is a role she would actually excel in) was ruined by Deko's chuunibyou-induced over-enthusiasm... Unless the writers make it so that Shinka actually wins in the end regardless. Which would be kind of funny.

[Marcus H.]

Does Shinka really want to be a Student Council President? I doubt it, especially since she has been the kind of person who is desperate for having a riajuu and is failing to do so. She did it with the Cheerleading Club, the tried out the Drama Club, and I'm not surprised that she went for the Student Council just to get the past of Mori Summer off her back.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Does Shinka really want to be a Student Council President? I doubt it,

Oh come on. She obviously was quite serious in her attempts to become Student Council President. She gave every indication of seriously wanting it, and no indication of being conflicted over it.

Also, wasn't Shinka the class rep, or something along those lines, back in Season 1? I distinctly remember her in that role during the "Makoto's head-shaving punishment" episode. So it's not like her interest in student politics came completely out of the blue.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Oh come on. She obviously was quite serious in her attempts to become Student Council President. She gave every indication of seriously wanting it, and no indication of being conflicted over it.

Also, wasn't Shinka the class rep, or something along those lines, back in Season 1? I vividly remember in that role during the "Makoto's head-shaving punishment" episode. So it's not like her interest in student politics came completely out of the blue.

It isn't an interest in responsability spot that she seeks, but definitely any spot that give her a clean "image" in contrast to Mori Summer period.

As I already stated, she never mentioned she wanted to be the SCP at all prior this episode. Her actions are gravitating towards her wish to turn the page with her chuuni past and be a reajuu as marcus said.

Her attempts were done on a timely manner, but her intent and actions prior this episode don't reflect that at all.
S2 ep1 is a big giveaway about that: she wants to "achieve something", and she got frustrated that Sanae fared even better than she could, despite the former is a closet chuuni. That's why she didn't insist with her prude girl image back in ep1, considering it just didn't work with her classmates.

Hell, if anything, her answer to why she left the drama club, much to Yuuta's surprise, indicates clearly she changed her mind like before. You don't expect that from someone who was seriously considering SCP as their dream: they would have done that on the spot, be it preliminary task as a freshman, or thinking about it back in the entrance ceremony.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It isn't an interest in responsability spot that she seeks,

I disagree. Didn't she have such a "responsibility spot" in the first season? Again, I distinctly recall her being the class rep, and her presiding over the handling of Makoto's head-shaving punishment.

Besides, it's simply ridiculous to say that she didn't really want to be Student Council President when almost everything she did in this episode reflects a sincere desire to become that.

As I already stated, she never mentioned she wanted to be the SCP at all prior this episode.

Why would she mention this in Season 1? She's not the main character, or the main focal point of action. It's only natural that we learn something new about Shinka in an episode that actually focuses a lot on her, and gives her a narrator/primary perspective position.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by teja208

Novalysis firmly believes that Dekomori is superior to other chu2byo patients due to her knack for behaving properly in public. That is to say despite of chu2byo, she was able to fit in better with ordinary people than say Rikka or Sophia due to possessing a certain built-in off switch mode which gives room normal social interaction like how she always helping her classmates study. This become debatable after what she did this episode.

More specifically, Dekomori displayed the ability to know when not to be a Chuuni, repeatedly. It's basically one of the distinguishing character traits that made Dekomori stand out, and one the audience has been reminded of in three episodes. But that was not my main point.

The first point was a speculation of how other students were going to receive it, and how what Dekomori did was a very bad idea for Dekomori itself, since it showed it could not be trusted. From the internal perspective, knowing what happened, we could plausibly construct a case to defend Dekomori - I son't regard her as a deliberate backstabber, but the betrayal of confidence did occurred here, and I think this is the root of what made me outraged over what Dekomori did, initially.

Yes, it's possible that Mori Summer broke the switch in Dekomori by mistake. And yes, Nibutani was partly to blame by having Dekomori deliver an endorsement speech. Dekomori being at Nibutani's side would have been enough to secure the First Year vote.

The second point was more Meta - it was about my disappointment with the scriptwirter for not only returning to the status quo, but with the way it was done. Chuuni being a Rom-Com Slice of Life does not give it the free pass to hit the reset button by forcing Dekomori into negative character development, and also the abrupt mood swing.

Again, Shinka is not absolved of blame. She should have delivered her own speech, not let Dekomori do it.

But, should we think that Shinka does not deserve being in a Student Council president, because of "intentions"? I think we can all agree that Shinka had two related intentions: "Escape her Chuuni past", and "climb to the top of the school's social hierarchy". Being in the Student Council, in Nibutani's mind would allow her to take that pole position, by the virtue of her position.

Yes, Shinka did not run for the SC president for it's own sake. But does having an underlying reason for running makes Shinka's attempt for the presidency less legitimate? Ideally, the President should be President because he or she desires to "give back" to the school, and it makes fun election speeches, but I think Shinka's reasoning is more in line with why many people run for this post, in reality. No-one runs for Student Council President for the sake of the position alone - and Shinka's reasons are... very down to Earth for anime, to be honest, unlike some other anime SC Presidents I can name. Indeed, the down to earth nature of Nibutani's intentions made the sudden decision to reveal the whole episode to be a gag episode was very jarring.

It is of course problematic, if the Student Council President as a result proves negligent and incompetent, a mass of hot air and smoke. But is Nibutani really that irresponsible? Certainly, there seems to be an argument here that Nibutani's proved flighty, but at the same time, Nibutani appears to give off the impression that she does posses a sense of responsibility. And both can be simultaneously true - again this just highlights that the episode was a massive wasted opportunity for taking Chuuni into a very interesting direction.

The weight of the presidency, and the inability from simply walking away from it, like she does in other clubs could be milked for both new sources of gags, while presenting a path of character development. The first season was very character development driven, and I would actually argue that the second season's first three episodes drove Rikka and Yuuta's character in a very subtle manner.

While the ending of this episode would have fit a gag series, the fact that Chuunibyou has firstly, a progression of time unlike most gag series, and secondly, distinguished itself by being a character-centric series makes Episode 4's hitting of the reset button troubling- does this mean that Kyo-ani is intending to keep everyone's characters static?

P.s: I have watched and loved Love Lab. Which is why I think a Dekomori- Nibutani SC would make for a funny Student Council Comedy that echoes Love Lab's dynamics somewhat.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. Didn't she have such a "responsibility spot" in the first season? Again, I distinctly recall her being the class rep, and her presiding over the handling of Makoto's head-shaving punishment.

Besides, it's simply ridiculous to say that she didn't really want to be Student Council President when almost everything she did in this episode reflects a sincere desire to become that.

You realize that her "perfect girl" facade is nowhere close to her real personality? The contrast was done for laughs, but in general, Shinka is working on her personality to erase her chuuni past.
The evidence of that is her explanation why she joined the cheerleading club during episode 5: because the type of girl doing that is the clear cut opposite of a chuuni person.

This correlates as well to the very vague reason why she dropped the drama club all of a sudden.

Likewise, her change of outfit and hair style/color was limited to a very limited time, because she wanted to try yet something else.

So her efforts were done to get the SCP position, but her aim is definitely not what you claim it to be: she doesn't sincerely want to be the SCP because it is her dream (it isn't), but because it is clearly the most respected position in the school for a student, and by default it would definitely set her aside from her chuuni past.

Why would she mention this in Season 1? She's not the main character, or the main focal point of action. It's only natural that we learn something new about Shinka in an episode that actually focuses a lot on her, and gives her a narrator/primary perspective position.

Season 2, Episode 1. The episode focused on Shinka's perspective once, and yet she had no plan for the student council, exactly because she is currently trying the "perfect girl" plan with her change of clothes and hairstyle.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Likewise, her change of outfit and hair style/color was limited to a very limited time, because she wanted to try yet something else.

So her efforts were done to get the SCP position, but her aim is definitely what you claim to be: she doesn't sincerely want to be the SCP because it is her dream.
.

I apologize ahead for being blunt here, but wanting to be SCP for the sake of being SCP is a very silly stance to take. No one dreams of being the SCP for the position's own sake - they want the position either to fulfill some agenda/objective, or for a likely self-serving reason. Now, if your point was that Nibutani did not deserve the position, because her intentions were rather opportunistic and self-serving, that's another matter though. But I don't think that Nibutani was aiming for the SCP just to try it out. That's.... really illogical for someone who wants to climb to the top of the Social Hierarchy.

You need to clarify what you mean by sincerity exactly, since no-one outright dreams of the SCP, without some other underlying reason for that dream.

And even if you were right, it just means that Kyoani squandered an amazing opportunity for taking Nibutani's character in a very unique and interesting direction.

Again, we don't have an insight into Shinka's head, but she might well have been looking at the SCP position ever since her first year- and we'd never know it, since this is the first episode we got into Nibutani's head. What other prize was she working towards then?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I apologize ahead for being blunt here, but wanting to be SCP for the sake of being SCP is a very silly stance to take. No one dreams of being the SCP for the position's own sake - they want the position either to fulfill some agenda/objective, or for a likely self-serving reason.

That's actually what I mentioned by developing a bit the reasons why she tried to have such position.
So I don't see the point of your comment: it isn't like she genuinely wanted to have that position for the students sake.

That being said, not all SCP (be it in fiction or reality) are bound to have an agenda for that.

Now, if your point was that Nibutani did not deserve the position, because her intentions were rather opportunistic and self-serving, that's another matter though. But I don't think that Nibutani was aiming for the SCP just to try it out. That's.... really illogical for someone who wants to climb to the top of the Social Hierarchy.

You need to clarify what you mean by sincerity exactly, since no-one outright dreams of the SCP, without some other underlying reason for that dream.

And even if you were right, it just means that Kyoani squandered an amazing opportunity for taking Nibutani's character in a very unique and interesting direction.

Again, we don't have an insight into Shinka's head, but she might well have been looking at the SCP position ever since her first year- and we'd never know it, since this is the first episode we got into Nibutani's head. What other prize was she working towards then?

You really missed the point I made there.
I never stated she wanted to try that for the hell of it. What I defined here is that her attempt to be the SCP is yet another attempt for her to erase her chuuni past, by reaching a reputable position (never saying she isn't cut for the job).
That's all there is to it, so blaming Sanae for "destroying Shinka's dream" despite it is really not the case (for the reasons already mentioned above), I find it quite extreme.
Sanae definitely thwarted Shinka's efforts to be freed from her frustration due to her chuuni past, but it isn't like her lifetime dream was smashed to pieces.

It isn't a matter of "deserving the position" or not. I'm however not agreeing on "how serious" it is.
The series does have a tone shift when things are really serious, yet it didn't occur in this episode. So I would take it as "serious" as it is for the other gag scenes between the two. Past that, gotta agree to disagree.

[Sheba]

To put it in a western school comedy setup, Shinka is a former hardcore nerd who now tries to be one of those "cool" people and aimed to be kaichou for that end. In short, I think, emphasis on think, that her aiming to be SCP is just a mean to that end.

[Kismet-chan]

I don't understand why someone wanting to have a clean public face to separate themselves from their embarrassing past and genuinely wanting to be a school council president have to be mutually exclusive desires. Both of those could possibly be true for Shinka.