2008-10-21, 09:50 | Link #161 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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@Matrim
The anime hasn't given evidence to the contrary. If one can provide the time range in which the quote was made, be it BSS or HG-F version? I'd gladly concede the point if one provides it, but my impression of Jean is that he is a pretty earnest guy by his actions and words. Maybe that's the problem here, where people are used to how Jean is depicted in the manga/SP when he is depicted slightly different here?
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2008-10-21, 10:18 | Link #162 | |
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Anyway, if we are talking anime-only, I for one never really got the impression that Jean does not enjoy music, so DragoonKain3's explanation why Chiaki won doesn't really work for me. And even if it did, I fail to see the point of turning things completely around in regards to Jean's character when in the manga the message that Chiaki should enjoy the music more is still there, albeit as just one of the reasons why he won.
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2008-10-21, 10:20 | Link #163 | |||||||
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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Granted, there was another scene in the manga which made it more obvious that Chiaki's bombing of Till was due to his being affected by Jean, but unfortunately, that is yet another one of the butcher jobs.... Quote:
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There was a very important explanation scene that also got butchered. With that cut out, any resulting attempt to fill the hole is merely Fanwank. Quote:
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2008-10-21, 10:30 | Link #164 | |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Jean does probably enjoy music to a degree, but not to the level Katagiri and later on Chiaki did. After all, it was only after hearing Katagiri's piece did Chiaki mention that he should've enjoyed the music from the bottom of his heart like Katagiri did, and nary a word of it during Jean's piece. This is further evidenced by the reaction of Nodame (who we can agree is the living epitome of enjoying the music), of which was only awe in Jean's piece while she screamed out in delight during Katagiri's.
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2008-10-21, 11:04 | Link #165 | |
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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It was there also to further the bond between Chiaki and Nodame, in the manga she gave him further advice too (which contrasted superbly with Yuuko who helped Jean believe his own hype) and Chiaki's win is not at all just "oh, well, I will enjoy my music". Ascaloth, no need to be so aggresive just because someone disagrees with you,
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2008-10-21, 12:13 | Link #166 |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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What a disillusion of an episode. I never expected to be saying this when I'm always the one defending any series when everyone else is attacking it but I cannot feel other way. Half of the charm of Nodame Cantabile was the focus on classical music, the concertos, the reactions of the public to the performance, the subtilities they put during the playing to emphasize the performer's emotions. The music is not a background, it WAS the FOREGROUND during the direction concerto. Too rushed, way, way too rushed. This being one of the parts that I looked the most at seeing animated, being an amateur piano performer myself and a classical music lover and I cannot feel but express my utter disappointment in the direction the series has taken. If this is how it is going to continue I do not know if I can stomach a further 9 episodes.
Not to mention that they also skimmed over a lot of character development like Ascaloth has correctly pointed out, which just made the whole episode more deplorable. I'm in despair
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2008-10-21, 12:19 | Link #167 | ||||||
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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On one hand, we can have Jean be a jackass and unsportsman by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he didn't do his best, in that he could've beat Chiaki if he tried a little harder. On the other, we can have Jean being the gentleman and sportsman he is by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he tried his best, preparation and all, and has no regrets at all with his effort. And judging by Jean's depiction in the anime and anime only, the latter is much likelier considering he was almost perfect to a degree. Quote:
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2008-10-21, 13:11 | Link #168 | |||||
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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Let me try this again. Why would Chiaki utter the "shit, he's good" line if it is not an indication of the fact that he is suffering a crisis of confidence that led to his overdoing things? Please do not dodge those of my points which are inconvenient to you, because I will keep calling you on it until you address it convincingly. Quote:
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For another, you are clearly displaying a bias for the "extraordinary" aspects of Chiaki by implying that the "hard work vs reliance on talent" theme is nothing extraordinary, despite that interpretation going against every scenario that portrayed Chiaki as getting his successes from his work ethic in the first season (from his retort that he "practiced until he was sick" to Mine's grousing that everything seemed too easy to the former, to the way he singlehandedly pulled the standards of a bunch of no-hopers to a respectable standard through forcing his work ethic on them in the S-Oke Arc). You call it "nothing extraordinary", but I see it as an important variation on a theme that existed from the start of Nodame Cantabile, and a theme that is no less, and arguably even more important than that of the "enjoying the music" theme at that. It's not a case of which theme is "better"; that is merely you trying to foist yet another False Dilemma on me. There is merely the issue of Adaptation Decay, which while to be expected in all adaptations, is simply at an unacceptable level here with the negligence of one of Nodame Cantabile's basic themes. I'm going to sleep now, don't expect a reply for some hours yet. |
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2008-10-21, 20:31 | Link #169 | |||||||
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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In short, fanwank is when a fan goes, "This development in canon makes no sense. However, it would make sense if only they had said, done, or suggested this other thing, which they didn't, but probably should, would, or could have." Emphasis mine All I've been telling you is at the very least they have suggested that the reason Chiaki won was because he finally embraced the music. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was implied by Chiaki's observance of how Katagiri did his conducting, further evidenced by Chiaki's speech before his final piece, and symbolically represented by finally using that stupid doll thing Nodame gave him (BURN IT! ugly piece of trash lol). And yes, they did suggest it in the anime itself; it's not something I just pulled out of thin air. There's a big difference between fanwank (which mainly deals with suppositions of certain events happening when they didn't actually occur and has no basis at all in canon) and digging a little bit deeper beneath the surface of what actually occurs in the material. And there's the latter part of the definition: If enough people like and perpetuate a given fanwank, it can become fanon. Usually this is a relatively harmless activity designed to make the fan feel better about things, hence the name. Emphasis mine. Why on earth should I try to make myself feel better about things, when my instincts tell me to find every minor detail the have done wrong in the anime, and say that Kasai wouldn't have made the same mistake? As I said before, I'm a Kenichi Kasai fanatic and not really a Nodame Cantabile one (be it anime or whatnot). But as someone somehwat familiar with literary analysis, I have learned how to push aside my biases and at the very least try to objectively judge a piece independent of source, creator, or any other outside factors that might come in. Granted, I'm not perfect; I don't always succeed (goodness knows I find Kannagi absolutley boring since I already read the source material), but I do try. Quote:
Really, if I won a competition and my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but [i]I did not feel like I lost because I underestimated you[i]. Thus I didn't try hard enough so I lost, but I vow never to do the same again' screams nothing but unsportsmanlike to me. You lost... deal with it and suck it up like a man. Don't say that you didn't try harder or whatever, it's all excuses at this point. On the otherhand, if my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but I did not feel like I lost because I tried my best and there's nothing else I could've done, nor is there anything I regret', it's actually a compliment. Enough to warrant a sportsmanlike response of 'I didn't feel like I won, though', don't you think? (And no, Chiaki is anything but humble, so it certainly wasn't through humility) Quote:
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And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want the animators to explicitly show how big of a difference was his performance in comparison to Jean? If that is so, then I ask, what is there to show? Going by Chiaki's 'I did not feel like I won, either', he did not win by a considerable margin. The difference in their music would be so small that only musical experts would be able to tell which is better, which in turn would be lost to the majority of the viewers. And we don't even know if they'll be able to recreate such a small difference in quality in the first place. Regardles, instead of trying to show such a small difference and quite possibly failing, they did the right thing and left it to our imaginations, guided by the numerous clues inbedded through the episode, how exactly Chiaki embracing his music produced that 'small difference' that is the margin for his victory. Yes, it's a big departure from where it seems like he completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass in the finals, but it fits the context of the episode considering what they purposely omitted (Jean's flaw of not being a hard worker). If they have shown Jean as a slacker then there would be big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals. But considering there has been no negative remarks about Jean's performance, and all of it positive, we can only assume that Jean consistently placing first in other tourneys is the product of talent and effort. Quote:
Contrast this to Nodame, who enjoys music to the very core of her being, but as shown in the first season she really needs to work on her discpline and effort. True, hard work is important in Nodame Cantabile, but in Chiaki's case we already know he has it in spades. That being the case, the message is more powerful with Chiaki overcoming adversity by working on his flaw as someone who rarely truely enjoys the music. Nodame on the other hand is the perfect candidate for emphasizing the hard work part. Really, that's the reason why I got drawn in Nodame Cantabile in the first place... where the two main characters despite their talent are still 'works in progress', with each other's greatest flaw is the other's greatest strength.
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2008-10-21, 21:57 | Link #170 | ||
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-10-21, 22:09 | Link #171 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I won't go into more detail -- there's already plenty of that in the thread -- but I'll say that although I'm disappointed for the same reasons that Matrim is, I also agree with DragoonKain that we have to make an effort to let the anime stand on its own, and not imagine that the manga is the "real" story. It's the source material, but the anime is allowed to change things, even to change the personalities somewhat. As long as what it does works, and I'm feeling as if things are not as rich or psychologically well explained as they were in the drama. But there is plenty of time. Perhaps they're rushing this in order to give more time to some later things. I hope.
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2008-10-22, 01:54 | Link #172 | |||||||||
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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Moreover, you committed a fallacy of quoting out of context. I did not say Chiaki "completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass", and I never meant anything remotely like that when I said that Chaiki's work ethic is the critical factor in his victory. Therefore, I don't see how it would be "showing Jean as a slacker", and how it would lead to "big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals". Quote:
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2008-10-23, 07:17 | Link #174 |
Somehow I found out
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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Since this is about one lit match away from turning into a flamewar, I'm going to tread very carefully around what people have been saying and just present my own opinion in as inoffensive way as possible...
Ep 2 Yes, that was rushed, but it is just one episode. I don't think it's a major problem unless it happens regularly from here on.
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2008-10-24, 00:38 | Link #175 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Missouri
Age: 42
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I was the same way...I didn't want to judge yet because it was just one episode, and they may just want to set the stage for everything that comes later.
But I just watched the raw for ep 3 (well, I kind of flipped through it because it's past my bedtime), and I think it's still going fast. It's not as obvious as the last episode, but still. I don't have a problem with it because I'm a manga reader, so I'm just enjoying seeing some things animated. But I think if you're just seeing this part of the story for the first time, it is definitely lacking. It just doesn't work the same way without more of the character development. That being said, I'm still going to watch and enjoy this series. Edit: Maybe this episode isn't rushed so much as it just feels weird since these events come up so much sooner. Spoiler for Episode 3:
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2008-10-24, 18:46 | Link #177 |
Star of Misfortune
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lol here we go again...
FTR, Nodame clearly looks like a C cup to me. Also, we're barely 3 episodes in and it IS only an 11 episode series. Considering that the episodes only feel SLIGHTLY rushed is a godsend considering they're trying to complete the second half of the entire series in 11 episodes. This is still the most entertaining anime series I'm watching by far and I do read the manga but I'm right before this arc starts. If they omitting tons of subtle moments that I enjoy then it'll just make me enjoy the manga that much more when i read it. My enjoyment of this series hasnt dropped AT ALL despite the new director which I was surprised at. All the bashing is really shocking. Even the bashers still admit they enjoyed the episode. It's not nearly as bad as ep03 of ToraDora which is making me consider dropping that series completely and I've NEVER seen the source material. That episode was just so horrendous..especially after the two initial episodes being so well done. |
2008-10-24, 20:50 | Link #179 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Missouri
Age: 42
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Or is that not what you meant. |
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2008-10-24, 21:08 | Link #180 |
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
Join Date: Dec 2005
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No way they are going to try to fit the entire second half in 11 episodes...especially considering the manga is still ongoing and his "second half" technically does not exist in full.
I am fighting the urge to see the raw but they'd better keep the scenes with Elise or there will be blood. I am still pissed that they cut her threat to leave Stresseman and become David Beckham's agent from the last episode.
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comedy, josei, musical, nodame cantabile, noitamina |
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