Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans - Anime Spoilers & Speculation

[tdx]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Now, I'm actually confident that Eugene can step up the plate. Back when he lost the leadership to Orga in the first place, it was obvious that because at that time, he was quite immature. He was always groaning, complaining, flying off the handle, and would rarely stick to his guns in the face of adversity.

However, since then, he has matured a heck of a lot and while not completely on Orga's level as a natural leader, he has learned and studied under the best and is probably the second best option as leader. Also, if you put someone into the fire, they will show their true colors. Eugene now HAS to step up as new leader, that necessity that majorly mature a person or it can break them. I think Eugene will do what is required of him and more as Tekkadan's new leader.

Eugene has grown, yes, but he's far from the magic wand you're making him out to be. One's basic nature isn't something that can be changed so easily, there's a reason why Shino called him "still a loser", you still see his nature showing through here and there, he admits to Yamagi he couldn't tell Orga what needed to be told, in the talk with McGillis he basically wanted to give up on fighting before fighting even though there hardly was any choice, that attitude was very contrasting with how Orga and McGillis himself are. He's a bit like Zack, just more loyal, and it won't change because it's just how he is.

Besides, remember the spoiler? The one that named McGillis Tekkadan's new leader. I will be interested to hear what you'll have to say if that bad fanfiction does come true next episode.

But all that aside, why are we even sure there will still be Tekkadan for Eugene to be the leader of, again? The way things are looking, Tekkadan is no more. Not just because there's no Orga, but because even if they reach Earth, they will have to scatter; forget Tekkadan, even staying banded all together won't be safe for them.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Yes, sadly Orga was priceless, but his position was always high risk. There was always the chance we were going to lose him. Tekkadan is going to have to evolve without Orga. It might not be able to go to the lofty heights he would have liked, but if they are able to pull through this, they could still make it the family unit that was at the core of what Orga wanted for his people.

Oh, if he went out in battle, it'd be different. But gunned down by some mobsters protecting those who should've protected him, without ever touching his Shiden? And he died a virgin to boot, didn't he? Hahahaha! They better not seriously expect it to be any sort of satisfying or smart, because it's just... hahahaha, yeah, so sad and unsatisfying that it's just downright laughable! What did they even want to say with it. That if you're bright and talented and you do your best, there's a huge chance to die a virgin? Hahaha, oh geez, what a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

But organizations and ideas and dreams CAN move beyond their founders. Sure it will be hard, but it can be done

Oh yes, they can! As we've eloquently seen with Gjallarhorn, a splendid in-universe example. /sarcasm At this rate the wild idea a few people floated, most likely just for shits and giggles, about a sequel a few centuries into the future where Tekkadan are the main Big Bad will not be all that far fetched.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They actually did. Remember how Eugene/Orga called Mika to hurry the F up because the chaff explosion on Hotarubi was gonna blow on that area any second and it's gonna be big? Yeah, Mika just left Julieta there to be caught in the explosion (and he was right, Julia did caught up in the explosion). But by some luck and Gaelio being nearby, Julieta was saved. Plot armor? Yes. Annoying? Yes. But we've had that before quite a number of times. That's the excuse. Is it good? Is it enough? That's up to you.

And? A stab to the cockpit takes hours to complete or what? He spent more time arguing with Eugene and thinking if he should go or maybe not, for crying out loud. Forget good or bad, that doesn't even make an excuse.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Hmm. I think my answer to Skaddix above can be applied here too. About the cherry-picking.

That's not cherry-picking. I personally call it "giving it a chance". I could do it while there still was time for the show to fix its mistakes or at least make up for them. But there's no such time anymore.

Also, I'm not a McGillis fan, and I don't really care about him. Didn't stop me from complaining about how ridiculous the Muh Bael plan was when my suspension of disbelief was forcefully stretched too far. Likes or dislikes had nothing to do with it. Same with Mika being bested by Julietta. These things just go way beyond common sense tolerance limit.

[Skaddix]

Yeah pretty much Orga went through the ringer for 10 episodes to die a Virgin, protecting a worthless brat who was suppose to be protecting him and having never piloted his Shinden. To thugs hired by an associate that Kudelia failed to handle because she was too busy masturbating about Mika. Meanwhile Mika gets his Harem. And Eugene gets a promotion. And I am suppose to be happy about that death. Laughable.

Oh and all this is caused because McGillis had a terrible plan and Mika didn't just go all out and crush Julietta.

I mean come on this is the same series with the Naze and Amida Death. Now that is Epic and Worthy of Praise. They almost

got Iok and saved as much of their family as possible. Orga shot 2 no name thugs and saved just Ride. So Grand.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by tdx

Besides, remember the spoiler? The one that named McGillis Tekkadan's new leader. I will be interested to hear what you'll have to say if that bad fanfiction does come true next episode.

Honestly, at this point I wouldn't be surprised and I'd what to see what they would do with it at this point what with only two episodes to go and McGillis taking up a major part of next episode with his fight against Gaelio and in an episode featuring his name in the title, it's very likely that he will be dying in it as well. But we'll see.

Well you guys have fun. I've said my piece. I'll probably come back around if there is any other new news that breaks or anything interesting in the PV pics. Other than that, see you guys next episode!

[CristianR]

As I'm going to have a lot of fun when Mika at the end of the season is still alive

[Alf]

Originally Posted by CristianR

As I'm going to have a lot of fun when Mika at the end of the season is still alive

Yeah, Mika's fate isn't sure yet. If he did make it, it would be nice to see how people rant about why he lived with a harem while Orga died

Orga is a great guy, but actually it's because Orga just led them through the way of guile that they are in this situation. Their problem was pointed out by Kudelia that they just don't know what are the choices (and everything she did in s2 are about the alternatives, so she is more than a haremett). Although Orga started to find different ways before he died, it's been proven that keeping his way through the end doesn't work. With his death it's actually sparing Tekkadan some death on meta level because it's now up to them to find new ways.

With Mika, there is this co-dependency with Orga so Mika is like on full death flag, but that "what do you think" question by McGillis seems to cleared some of those death flags. If Mika's answer is "just go to where Orga is" or he otherwise answered it fully in the remaining 2 eps then he will most probably die, but if he leave the question not fully answered then it's likely he'll live.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Indeed. As you can see in the episodic thread of S2, I have been stressing that particular error of him for some time now. Lesson to all: Never forget to double tap, triple tap or even quad tap your target to make absolute sure that they're dead.

Mika has the right idea. Every time he shoots someone in the head, he makes sure to fire at least twice. He saw Aldnoah.Zero, he knows what can happen.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Alf

Yeah, Mika's fate isn't sure yet. If he did make it, it would be nice to see how people rant about why he lived with a harem while Orga died

Orga is a great guy, but actually it's because Orga just led them through the way of guile that they are in this situation. Their problem was pointed out by Kudelia that they just don't know what are the choices (and everything she did in s2 are about the alternatives, so she is more than a haremett). Although Orga started to find different ways before he died, it's been proven that keeping his way through the end doesn't work. With his death it's actually sparing Tekkadan some death on meta level because it's now up to them to find new ways.

With Mika, there is this co-dependency with Orga so Mika is like on full death flag, but that "what do you think" question by McGillis seems to cleared some of those death flags. If Mika's answer is "just go to where Orga is" or he otherwise answered it fully in the remaining 2 eps then he will most probably die, but if he leave the question not fully answered then it's likely he'll live.

Remember the first time they met when Mika shot a man for spare change. The place that they belong is a place where they wont go hungry, a warm bed and a roof over their heads without the fear of being exploited by anyone. Orga may have died but so long Mika can fulfill Orga's command and keep going he will be able to to see Orga with a smile on his face when he dies with family around him.

Right now Mika is dangerously close to back to where they started with Rustal abd Gaelio being the man who stamds between them and sanctuary. Because lets face it, Gaelio has a special disdain towards space rats and anyone who put their lot in with McGillis will join him in death

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by tdx

And? A stab to the cockpit takes hours to complete or what? He spent more time arguing with Eugene and thinking if he should go or maybe not, for crying out loud. Forget good or bad, that doesn't even make an excuse.

It’s as legit an excuse as Mika (somehow) letting Carta go off-screen on the island back in S1. If you accept one, you accept the other. If you deny one, you deny the other. So, take your pick. Accepting one but denying the other is just cherry-picking/double standard.

Originally Posted by tdx

That's not cherry-picking. I personally call it "giving it a chance". I could do it while there still was time for the show to fix its mistakes or at least make up for them. But there's no such time anymore.

So you excuse narrative problems & logic-lapse as long as it was put early in the story in the hope that the writers will somehow fix it later on? That only works for things that involve the “big picture” in the story, but not individual/independent events. Narrative problems in individual events is still a problem no matter where it is put in the story. Chad & Makanai surviving point-blank explosion that’s strong enough to blow the entire room and loud enough for people to hear from afar, Orga & Biscuit waltz out in the open to be slaughtered by MS, Takaki got saved by “Flash Galan”, etc are already stretching logic and suspension of disbelief in and of itself. The story won’t be able to fix them no matter how long it will continue. Yet you give those earlier hiccups a pass but not the ones near the ending? That’s a weird double standard.

Accepting one but not accepting the other even though both are basically the same thing is the very definition of double standard. Most of the narrative problems that you’re complaining in this latter part of the story already happened before in the early part (S1). So, by your standard, IBO is already doomed earlier in the story, and not just starting from this S2. So, why making so much fuss now? If I may guess, that’s because you don’t like the direction where the story is going and because the characters that you care about received less treatment than what you think they deserve. Not liking the direction of a show and coming out to say it is cool, I’ve been there myself. But claiming the show being a trainwreck in later part for things that’s already happened way earlier (idiot ball, plot armor, nerfing, etc) is just wrong. It’d be better if you just said that IBO didn’t work for you since Season 1.

Originally Posted by tdx

Also, I'm not a McGillis fan, and I don't really care about him. Didn't stop me from complaining about how ridiculous the Muh Bael plan was when my suspension of disbelief was forcefully stretched too far. Likes or dislikes had nothing to do with it. Same with Mika being bested by Julietta. These things just go way beyond common sense tolerance limit.

Of course you care about “Muh Bael” and McG’s other fiasco at the time since they influence the fate of Tekkadan and the protags that you care about

@Skaddix
I read your post before mod edited it due to personal attack against me. I’m only interested in doing this discussion when the participants are civil. Your replies are starting to sound like the rude comments in Youtube, Gamefaq & 4Chan. I have no interest in replying it until you're committed to be civil. But some of my reply to tdx may overlap with your questions, so there’s that.

[Key Board]

The easy "path" would to have Mika die

at one point Mika faced a problem. What should he do after the war, since he can only fight?

His bodily functions being impaired by Barbatos made that a non issue
That was no longer a question he needed to address

He was more comfortable being a tool of war.
He was more comfortable just cutting the way open for Orga

If he survived the last episode,, it would open new questions for him

Then again, it does not seem that IBO will have any continuation, so it's a plot thread the writers won't have to worry regardless if he dies or not

[NBG]

Didn't one of the writers or someone like that say that "this isn't the end" in regards to the end of S2? I believe it was a interview from a magazine. It was posted here a couple days ago.

[Kurohane]

Even if true, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to continue to be in anime format.

[SonicSP]

IMO it would be really hard to continue the show without Orga. Killing him off sounds one of those things you do when you're really winding things down considering how important he is not just as a character but to Tekkadan's operations.

[DMurphy]

I suspect 'this is not the end' means 'there will be a tie-in film,' like there usually is with Gundam series.

Continuing without Orga isn't really sustainable for an entire series, but for a two hour film? Eh, it should be fine.

[Rising Dragon]

I'm sorry, when did sequel movies become standard?

[tdx]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It’s as legit an excuse as Mika (somehow) letting Carta go off-screen on the island back in S1. If you accept one, you accept the other. If you deny one, you deny the other. So, take your pick. Accepting one but denying the other is just cherry-picking/double standard.

No, the circumstances are clearly different, you can't lump apples and oranges together like that, one might pass as an excuse, the other doesn't even begin to.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So you excuse narrative problems & logic-lapse as long as it was put early in the story in the hope that the writers will somehow fix it later on? That only works for things that involve the “big picture” in the story, but not individual/independent events. Narrative problems in individual events is still a problem no matter where it is put in the story. Chad & Makanai surviving point-blank explosion that’s strong enough to blow the entire room and loud enough for people to hear from afar, Orga & Biscuit waltz out in the open to be slaughtered by MS, Takaki got saved by “Flash Galan”, etc are already stretching logic and suspension of disbelief in and of itself. The story won’t be able to fix them no matter how long it will continue. Yet you give those earlier hiccups a pass but not the ones near the ending? That’s a weird double standard.

Accepting one but not accepting the other even though both are basically the same thing is the very definition of double standard. Most of the narrative problems that you’re complaining in this latter part of the story already happened before in the early part (S1). So, by your standard, IBO is already doomed earlier in the story, and not just starting from this S2. So, why making so much fuss now? If I may guess, that’s because you don’t like the direction where the story is going and because the characters that you care about received less treatment than what you think they deserve. Not liking the direction of a show and coming out to say it is cool, I’ve been there myself. But claiming the show being a trainwreck in later part for things that’s already happened way earlier (idiot ball, plot armor, nerfing, etc) is just wrong. It’d be better if you just said that IBO didn’t work for you since Season 1.

You're ignoring a good part of my reasoning again and jumping straight into accusations.

I can tolerate hiccups up to a certain limit, everyone can, you included, that's why the term "suspension of disbelief" even exists, if we couldn't, there's no way we could ever enjoy any work of fiction, it would be just painful. There's nothing weird about it, it's perfectly normal.

There are, however, limits - of time, of entropy (accumulation of such hiccups) and of their size, as I have already repeated more than a couple of times, and frankly, I'm starting to feel like a broken record because you're making me repeat this again and again, so this is the last time and I sincerely hope you'll get it this time, ok? In this case, all those limits have been reached and breached: there's no time anymore to improve, there are so many hiccups now, in the last arc in particular, that it's like the show is practically made of them, and their size has become so huge now that they have even ended up assassinating a few characters. There are no even ways that I can see or time left where the show can try and make up for the blunders, to make the viewer forget or at least forgive the past ones (again, take s1: the Brewers arc was not the best, but Dorts picked up and made up for it, so it was low-high dynamic; now it's unstoppable low-lower dynamic). All that combined is what constitutes a trainwreck in making to me, and I apply this approach to any show, not just this one.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Of course you care about “Muh Bael” and McG’s other fiasco at the time since they influence the fate of Tekkadan and the protags that you care about

Again, not the case, as I have said multiple times. The two latest episodes were simply the proverbial last drop for reaching the limits I described above.

Originally Posted by NBG

Didn't one of the writers or someone like that say that "this isn't the end" in regards to the end of S2? I believe it was a interview from a magazine. It was posted here a couple days ago.

I took it to simply mean that it's not the end for whoever of the characters survive, that they will live on, one way or another. I don't think Ogawa hinted at a sequel or anything like that. Unless they bust out the same asspull we saw in s1 finale, a sequel doesn't look viable as Orga was the one who mostly drove the plot, Mika, even if he survives, can't do it by himself. Also, last time I checked the ratings, they were pretty abysmal, so even less insentive for the producers to greenlight a sequel in any shape or form.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by tdx

No, the circumstances are clearly different, you can't lump apples and oranges together like that, one might pass as an excuse, the other doesn't even begin to.

No. Both are more or less the same: One Tekkie member died -> Mika pissed -> wrecks the females' MSs -> has them on Barbie's grips -> somehow letting them go. The Carta’s case is even more egregious coz it didn’t even provide an excuse at all. Carta was just able to get away offscreen somehow. You accuse some of us for doing fill-in-the-blanks in the latest episodes when you yourself is defending the most “fill-in-the-blanks-yourself”-event in the entire series so far. Only a skewed standard can accept the former but not the latter.

Originally Posted by tdx

You're ignoring a good part of my reasoning again and jumping straight into accusations.

I can tolerate hiccups up to a certain limit, everyone can, you included, that's why the term "suspension of disbelief" even exists, if we couldn't, there's no way we could ever enjoy any work of fiction, it would be just painful. There's nothing weird about it, it's perfectly normal.

There are, however, limits - of time, of entropy (accumulation of such hiccups) and of their size, as I have already repeated more than a couple of times, and frankly, I'm starting to feel like a broken record because you're making me repeat this again and again, so this is the last time and I sincerely hope you'll get it this time, ok? In this case, all those limits have been reached and breached: there's no time anymore to improve, there are so many hiccups now, in the last arc in particular, that it's like the show is practically made of them, and their size has become so huge now that they have even ended up assassinating a few characters. There are no even ways that I can see or time left where the show can try and make up for the blunders, to make the viewer forget or at least forgive the past ones (again, take s1: the Brewers arc was not the best, but Dorts picked up and made up for it, so it was low-high dynamic; now it's unstoppable low-lower dynamic). All that combined is what constitutes a trainwreck in making to me, and I apply this approach to any show, not just this one.

Again, not the case, as I have said multiple times. The two latest episodes were simply the proverbial last drop for reaching the limits I described above.

Am I?

Suspension of disbelief is supposed to be consistent. Example: once you accept that Superman can fly early in his movie, you accept it all the way until the end of the story. Once you accept that Lex Luthor is fallible and a bit silly at the start of Superman movie, you accept it all the way till the end of the story with your suspension of disbelief. You can’t accept Luthor being fallible and silly early in the movie but then getting pissed off at the end of the movie after you watch too much of Luthor’s silliness and him being fallible. Due to your suspension of disbelief, you can complain about how the silliness was used, not the silliness itself.

• Orga being fallible, rash and not the most level-headed person was already established in S1.
• McG’s plans not being 100% solid and more chaotic was already established in S1.
• Both Orga & McG was already established as individuals that can make mistakes from the small ones to the big ones since S1 (idiot ball or no idiot ball).

What happened in the latest development with the G-horn civil war is pretty much the culmination of their characters’ flaws and their biggest mistakes they ever made (so far). You can dislike this story development just fine. I myself still has some beef on them underutilizing Kudelia, among others. But you can’t suddenly dislike the same things that you already accepted earlier by suspension of disbelief.
Let me give you another example from my POV this time:

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

So far, IBO still haven’t done character betrayal/assassination to that degree. Just characters making great mistakes. Mistakes that they are prone to do as already established earlier in the show. All of them still retain their original motivations, personality, pride and way of thinking to a considerable degree.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by NBG

Didn't one of the writers or someone like that say that "this isn't the end" in regards to the end of S2? I believe it was a interview from a magazine. It was posted here a couple days ago.

I recall a particular twitter comment from Shino's VA.

Thank you very much for watching the Orphans episode 45 yesterday. That one shot had everybody's wishes, Shino's chivalry, Yamaki's thoughts, all of these filled with it. At last of scene Shino's action is most like his being the first active team, for making a resting place for Tekkadan, being the moment that totaly shows the strength of the thought of simply wanting to protect.

Regarding my performance, "just don't want to regret" is what I always think of, thus I have no regret for the act of Shino this time. I had gave everything I've got.

So I would like to further request this. For the turn of events ahead of last of episode 45, please watch the movement of Tekkadan until the end of it. Although there should be many thoughts from all of you, it is not yet the end of it! ...Which is it? Please check that at the destination (smile)

So yeah, there are many thoughts from everybody now, but it's not the end. The end of what? Try guess it Anyway, the escape route established is not destroyed by Orga's death, so it's not the end.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Alf

I recall a particular twitter comment from Shino's VA.

So yeah, there are many thoughts from everybody now, but it's not the end. The end of what? Try guess it Anyway, the escape route established is not destroyed by Orga's death, so it's not the end.

It was also the producer of the series, Ogawa who in a recent interview alluded to this not being the end. Also he said basically not to count Tekkadan out and that they have faced horrible odds and many enemies before. But he did also say there would be a cost as we have already seen.

Also to keep an eye on Gjallerhorn Mars Branch as they will be important.

In a separate interview, Mika's VA who at the time had just finished recording the last episode, also says that the ending does indeed have a hopeful ending and that he does find it has a different ending than most other Gundam series that have come before, or at least that's his opinion.

[Irenesharda]

I found interestingly that the bio for the 1/100 Bael is actually slightly different than that of the 1/144 Bael and you actually get more information in regards to Agnika, as well as McGillis.

Spoiler for size and background info:

It turns out that Agnika didn't die in battle nor was he absorbed by Bael, from the way they frame it, it seems like he simply died of natural causes. Bael interestingly enough went to sleep after that and because of that, everyone assumes that Agnika's spirit is in Bael. And thus Bael became deified within Gjallarhorn.

Also, it seems that Agnika did indeed lead the Seven Stars but wasn't part of them. (they were more like the "merry men" to his "Robin Hood" or the better example being, they were his "Knights of the Round Table" to his "King Arthur")
It was he who placed what was left of the world into the 4 economic blocs and founded Gjallarhorn to be supervisors over it. But fascinatingly, he himself decided not to lead Gjallarhorn but put the Seven Stars in charge of overseeing it.

I wonder why that was? Was he just tired from all the fighting and wanted to retire?

Anyway, it also states that McGillis found salvation in Agnika's teachings and his ideal is a world where people could live as humans. I find this interesting because of the fact that so many of the characters in the series are thought of as less that human, including McGillis, and most of Tekkadan and that it's become a running theme in the show with many a villain calling Tekkadan lower than humans, such as Jasley, Dawn Horizon, and of course many in Gjallerhorn itself.

They also say that McGillis will contact the spirit of Agnika through the AV system. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be figuratively or if we'll actually see some form of Agnika at some point? But it will be interesting if they do.

[SonicSP]

It's possible that he was so intergrated with Bael that he couldn't really be involved in the day to day as much. Enough to make big decisions like dividing the blocs but not enough travel everywhere for everything, thus delegating it to the other seven.

He had a Gundam without much gimmicks and yet was the best MA slayer by far so it seems more likely to me that he was far more intergrated than the others. This is especially given the info we know of his fighting style.