Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[mirakura]

No, that's not it. Saber Alter knew about the Grail's corruption and welcomed it with open arms. Saber Alter's personality is pretty cool though. Replace the stoic side of Saber with Saber Alter's persoality and you get an awesome, cool but cold with a cute side, twisted character :3 A good idea for a fanfic, this needs to be jotted down!!

Originally Posted by GDB

...Except she only became Alter because she, Saber, accepted the corruption. You're denying facts from the story just because you don't like it.

Exactly, see someone listens to facts :3

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I didn't like Haven's Feel as story at all, it had way too much illogical things even for Fate universe.

Still less illogical (because it is not illogical in HF) than making a solo suicide attack on Ryodou temple because of... because of... because of... huh? why?

[Brother Coa]

I didn't like her at all, if there is something I hate most that is heroes turning dark.
But that's just me, I only liked her in CP.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I didn't like her at all, if there is something I hate most that is heroes turning dark.
But that's just me, I only liked her in CP.

Oh gosh that was funneh ;D

[Akogareru]

CherryLover, you accused someone earlier of being a hypocrite, but you also are one yourself. You said you hate fans that present false arguments (don't we all?) but your posts reek of that when it has anything to do with Saber. Mirakura countered everything you said to which you had no response for (surprise!). Either you lack knowledge when it comes to Saber's character or your blind fanboysm for Sakura kicks in whenever she is compared to Saber (probably both). I don't care for the term "Sakurafag" but you'd fit the bill quite nicely.

[mirakura]

XDDDDDDD

WOW full blown X3


;D

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Akogareru

CherryLover, you accused someone earlier of being a hypocrite, but you also are one yourself. You said you hate fans that present false arguments (don't we all?) but your posts reek of that when it has anything to do with Saber. Mirakura countered everything you said to which you had no response for (surprise!). Either you lack knowledge when it comes to Saber's character or your blind fanboysm for Sakura kicks in whenever she is compared to Saber (probably both). I don't care for the term "Sakurafag" but you'd fit the bill quite nicely.

Or Cherry hasn't been logged on for a few hours

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Or Cherry hasn't been logged on for a few hours

XDD This is good as well X3

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Willpower is the same as metally strong. It means she can tell herself to keep going no matter what happens to push her down.

No, it's not. Willpower is, perhaps, a type of mental strength, but it is certainly not the only type.

Saber was not brought up to be independent or confident. Sir Ector had wanted her to live as a normal girl but she wanted to save her country. Before she had been taught how to be independent, she already had 'save Britain' engraved into her mind. She has lots of confidence, but lost her self-confidence as a King due to what happened at the end of her reign.

Perhaps, but she was sure as hell given more encouragement to be independent and confident than Sakura was. Sakura was specifically trained not to think independently or be self-confident.

Sakura wouldn't be able to fare in Saber's place. The most important reason being she isn't the rightful King, and Saber has natural charisma which Sakura doesn't have. You can't lead a country without having high charisma, it's clearly impossible. And trying to lead a country with your looks wouldn't work either as most of them have families.

Sure, on a practical level, Saber has skills that Sakura does not. However, I was not talking about practical skills, I was talking about mental strength, and for that purpose whether Sakura has the skills needed to rule is irrelevant. I am talking about how she would handle the situation if she did possess those skills.

A Saber in Sakura's life, being born with all that and all, wouldn't let the worm corrupt her body. She wouldn't be able to give in to the matou familiars, courtesy of the dragon crest :3 Whilst Sakura doesn't have that, Saber's born with it and therefore Zouken probably wouldn't even want her having the Matou crest. So instead he will move on to breaking her.

Again, you're missing the point. I wasn't talking about the practical differences, I was talking about how Saber would react mentally to the tortures that Sakura was put through.

Whilst Sakura had to be torured by Zouken, Saber had the threatening of a demi-god, no, a 2/3 god.

Being threatened by a demi-god is not quite so bad when you are someone who is capable of actually fighting demi-gods. Sakura has to deal with entities that are much more powerful than her more than Saber does. Hell, any master in the Grail War does so.

With lots of phantasms ready to strike, without even having all her armory(by that I mean Avalon). Takes some strength not to break down in that position. Don't forget the 12 live other demi-god. And another demi-god(Alex is apparently one) with a noble phantasm that reminds her of all her failures in life. That said, raping from Zouken and Shinji wouldn't even be able to compare to what she's been through.

Seriously, what? You are saying that living nicely in a castle with her brother is worse than being constantly raped, poisoned and tortured for most of your childhood? You have a seriously screwed-up idea of what is difficult to cope with....

Originally Posted by mirakura

No, the whole Servant thing is run by the Grail. The real Grail, as in, the Ilya Grail.

Actually, no, it's run by the Great Grail. Ilya is just a storage device for the defeated servants. She is not somehow more "special" than Sakura is in terms of being a Grail, she's just better-made.

Originally Posted by mirakura

Which means Ilya should be more corrupt. After all, Avenger corrupted the Grail and Ilya is a properly made one. Also, yeah, I can tell there's a big difference :3

Again, the Great Grail is corrupt, not the lesser one. The Lesser Grail only gets corrupted by connection to the Great one, and Ilya is simply better designed and better trained to resist that.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I assume a proper Lesser Grail probably has protection build in to it. Sakura probably was never given the same protection to make sure she could get corrupted.

Actually, it's more that Zouken is less competent at making a Grail than the Einsberns are, so AM is able to leak out through Sakura whereas it can't leak out through Ilya until someone actually tries to summon the Grail properly.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, it's not. Willpower is, perhaps, a type of mental strength, but it is certainly not the only type.

to be more precise. will power is the ability to push forward despite the consequences. Mental strength is whether you can handle the consequences of doing so.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Sure, on a practical level, Saber has skills that Sakura does not. However, I was not talking about practical skills, I was talking about mental strength, and for that purpose whether Sakura has the skills needed to rule is irrelevant. I am talking about how she would handle the situation if she did possess those skills.



Again, you're missing the point. I wasn't talking about the practical differences, I was talking about how Saber would react mentally to the tortures that Sakura was put through.



Being threatened by a demi-god is not quite so bad when you are someone who is capable of actually fighting demi-gods. Sakura has to deal with entities that are much more powerful than her more than Saber does. Hell, any master in the Grail War does so.



Seriously, what? You are saying that living nicely in a castle with her brother is worse than being constantly raped, poisoned and tortured for most of your childhood? You have a seriously screwed-up idea of what is difficult to cope with....

1) Thing is, they're different people, with different skills. You can't give Saber's natural born skills to some one else and ask how they will fare in her position. I honestly don't see a way how Sakura could have done a better job than King fucking Arthur :3


2) Mentally, she would react the same way she would Gil. He's harassed her enough for her to know the mental feeling of getting raped day by day. What Gil did is called 'mind rape' not physically, but mentally, it's the same. Therefore I think she would react the same way she did to Gil. She wouldn't give up mentally, cos she knows if she gave up, she wouldn't reach her goal. That determination is also a form of mental strength. I can imagine her griting her teeth taking the same thing Sakura did. She wouldn't let them have their way, she would fight back. Apart from her bloodline, why else do you think the name 'King Arthur' goes hand in hand with 'red dragon'. The fact that she wouldn't give up was why Gil wanted her even more. That proves it's fact. That determination and willpower alone will let her fare well.

3) Thing is, she didn't have the power. Against all three demi-gods she didn't have the power. They were complete and had all they needed, but she didn't have all her armoury. She didn't have Avalon. At those moments when she didn't have Avalon, they were far powerful than her. The only reason berserker was defeated was because of Shirou's magecraft. Gil was defeated because she had Avalon, her shield. Alex was semi-defeated because he didn't want to use his NP. She was always at a disadvantage. But of course she would never give up. In her time, she faced witches, dragons, all types of Phantasmal creatures. They are far stronger than her, but she fared. If I Zouken and a dragon were to have a battle, the dragon will obviously win.

If Zouken were to try to come close to Morgana le fay, she would have destroyed him before he even came a 10 meters close to her. Face it, Arturia has faced far scarier things than Zouken. And don't forget, her time was even more primitive than Sakura's time. It takes strong mentality to be able to deal with things like that. She faced those things for 10 years of her life,(real King Arthur had the same for 30+!) and Morgana(one of the strongest witches in history) had hated her her whole life and could've easily killed her when she was young. All she's faced surpass Zouken threat by far, heck just seeing them would send the little worm crawling away. X3


4) You jest. Living nicely? Compared to going through what she did, getting what Sakura got seems measly. She was not tortured physically, but she had to take in all of the things that happened in her country, all the deaths, scares. She literally held up her country with her hands. No one worked as hard as she did. No one saw as much deaths as she did. Do you know how much mental torture that is? The country she gave up everything for. Don't forget having to deal with both Iri and the only Servant she considered a brother-in-arms get killed. Especially when Iri was a precious person to her. Saber didn't live happily in a castle. A King does far more in the Kingdom than any other. Infact, I imagine her going days without sleep just to do her duties. Don't you imagine traitors in her Kingdom? I never remembered anything about Sakura getting poisoned but Arturia's probably had to deal with that. She's had to live knowing someone or another is out to get her. Lets see a list of things Sakura had to deal with up to the start of HGW 5 compared to Sabers (you may add things I may have forgotten to include about her):

Sakura:

* Constant rape for 11 years by worms.
* Rape from her brother (no idea if it was constant or not :3).
* Having to deal with Zouken a fucking monster worm for 11 years.
* Having to deal with Shinji and his jealousy once he started getting jealous.
* Dealing with the pain of feeling betrayed by her sister.
* Dealing with the pain of feeling betrayed by her mother.
* Dealing with the pain of feeling betrayed by her father.
* Going through the pain of knowing the only person who tried to save her is dead.
* Tortured by a worm for 11 years so she can become a part of his master scheme.
* Poisoned?(I don't remember this happening but, oh well!)

Saber(oh I'm gonna enjoy this):

* Her father hates her for not being a girl.
* Lived a somewhat happy childhood with the chance of a young, clever witch attacking her.
* Lived a childhood working hard for a hopeless dream.
* Hated to the depths of hell by her sister.
* Has witnessed 100's of thousands of men die.
* Been to 12 battle fields and killed with her own hands.
* Betrayed by her most loyal knight.
* Having to kill her beloved Queen.
* Betrayed by her daughter.
* Killed her daughter.(I'm just getting started)
* Living life as a King knowing there are people out to get her.
* Betrayed by a bunch of her knights.
* Her country starting to hate her for 'not being human'.
* Abandoned by Merlin before her most important battle(well, that's cos, well, he's Merlin!).
* The pain of knowing she once went off course from her pledge of chivalry(to knights, thats a big thing:3)
* Has faced dragons
* Has faced witches
* Has faced other scary and or phantasmal creatures which I can't be asked to remember :3
* Has had to sacrifice 10 for 100, 100 for 100, e.t.c
* Has had to deal with executions.
* Almost killed by her most loyal knight(this is from Zero, the first was from her rule)
* Has to deal with the most precious person to her in HGW 4 dieng...
* Has to deal with her brother-in-arms(Dia) hating and cursing her for something not her fault.
* Has to deal with the mental rape and harassment provided by a certain goldy.
* Has to deal with Kerry aka the master that completely ignores her and puts down everything she stands for.
* Has seen Alex's NP reminding her of all her life 'failures'.
* Not getting to live a full life for the sake of her country.(was kinda her decision but worst could've happened if she did otherwise)
* Has to deal with harassment from a fish-eyed freak.
* Saw a child destroyed inside out right in front of her.
* Betrayed by her country.....

-Stretches- That took a long time :3 Of course I will be adding to this when I can remember more. You may edit Sakura's list if you want...don't forget, this is everything except the things that happened in HGW 5. Get my point, that's all I could think. Notice, I went into detail for both of them. This isn't some biased list, I tried my hardest to think of all the things Sakura had to deal with in the her life before HGW 5. I didn't have to think of the things about Saber cos they are always at the front of my brain. Now do you get my answers? Knowing my fav chara has gone through that much things(and more, there are some more at the tip of my tongue) and still not break. Neither mentally not physically. I don't know about you but, that is amazing :3 Do you think Sakura can handle those things Arturia handled? All of them? Arturia would be able to take what Sakura got and more, from the looks of it :3

..............

Daiyum, that took a while

Also, Brother Coa, don't you agree?

[GreyZone]

LOL, even after what I said people still don't get what "it is impossible to specifially weight the circumstances" and "the amount of information we have on each is by far unequal" means... but here I see people simply comparing the points 1:1 and using that as "ovewhelming arguments" while conveniently forgetting the weighting and unequality of information...

But the worst is I see another person whose post is full of FAIL using (very badly sweet covered) ad-hominem and their non-existant "argument supremacy (from someone else)" to try to make their favorite waifu appear to be the "best in the universe", while the hated one is branded a "heretic ship".....

I cannot believe I am witnessing this on animesuki of all internet places, where I thought the people were much more civilized than in places like reddit...

[Sansker]

What I don't understand is this... competition on who had the saddest life like it’s a good thing. Also considering all the female leads in each route had to endure Shirou as the main character, which balances out pretty much everything. Because as sad as life can be the guy is the leaving proof that Darwin was wrong. Is not the “survival of the fittest” but rather “survival of the luckiest”. I am just saying, whatever you think of Shirou, the guy does have a giant amount of luck to survive what he survives considering how thick he can be at times. While our sad female leads (Sakura, Saber and Rin) are all powerful in one way or another, talented, force to endure a lot of personal and physical suffering, really unlucky at times and they get to see how Shirou fixes the problem for them using his incredible amount of luck to stumble over the solution… hooray? (I am just joking here, but I do get that vibe from the story at times).

And back to the issue at hand, both Sakura and Saber had to deal with a lot of bad stuff on their lives (Curious enough it came in part for the oblivious stupidity of their families: the Thosakas hoping the creepy evil looking old magus they gave Sakura to was a trustworthy person and Saber’s because they expect nobody to notice she didn’t have a penis). So is not like one is better than the other for how they came out of it or who had it worse. I never mind Sakura but mostly because she is so forgettable in the anime and the first two routes in the VN. When I watch her luck in Zero I was shock, and understand her a bit better. Even if just by looking at her and knowing her asshole of a brother I could figure out something was wrong on that house, I just didn’t assume it was important when the story itself didn’t bother following on that. Saber, on the other hand, had her story explain in the first route and is touch on the anime adaptation as well. So must people know her and learn to care about her rather soon. So I blame the poor use of the story elements on the routes and the anime rather than the character for my lack of interest.

In the end I think they both got the shaft several times when it came down to it. Is just that their situations are so different that there is little room to compare. Sakura had her childhood ruin as well as Saber, but in different ways. Comparing who had it worst is like saying a person should not be so sad when they lost their mother, because someone else lost its entire family. Can we just agree they are both really bad? Now if you think one character does it better for you as Shirou’s love interest, that is up to you and a different argument. On the plus side, since HF is getting a movie, I will finally be able to watch that and see what all the stuff with Sakura.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Sansker

What I don't understand is this... competition on who had the saddest life like it’s a good thing. Also considering all the female leads in each route had to endure Shirou as the main character, which balances out pretty much everything. Because as sad as life can be the guy is the leaving proof that Darwin was wrong. Is not the “survival of the fittest” but rather “survival of the luckiest”. I am just saying, whatever you think of Shirou, the guy does have a giant amount of luck to survive what he survives considering how thick he can be at times. While our sad female leads (Sakura, Saber and Rin) are all powerful in one way or another, talented, force to endure a lot of personal and physical suffering, really unlucky at times and they get to see how Shirou fixes the problem for them using his incredible amount of luck to stumble over the solution… hooray? (I am just joking here, but I do get that vibe from the story at times).

And back to the issue at hand, both Sakura and Saber had to deal with a lot of bad stuff on their lives (Curious enough it came in part for the oblivious stupidity of their families: the Thosakas hoping the creepy evil looking old magus they gave Sakura to was a trustworthy person and Saber’s because they expect nobody to notice she didn’t have a penis). So is not like one is better than the other for how they came out of it or who had it worse. I never mind Sakura but mostly because she is so forgettable in the anime and the first two routes in the VN. When I watch her luck in Zero I was shock, and understand her a bit better. Even if just by looking at her and knowing her asshole of a brother I could figure out something was wrong on that house, I just didn’t assume it was important when the story itself didn’t bother following on that. Saber, on the other hand, had her story explain in the first route and is touch on the anime adaptation as well. So must people know her and learn to care about her rather soon. So I blame the poor use of the story elements on the routes and the anime rather than the character for my lack of interest.

In the end I think they both got the shaft several times when it came down to it. Is just that their situations are so different that there is little room to compare. Sakura had her childhood ruin as well as Saber, but in different ways. Comparing who had it worst is like saying a person should not be so sad when they lost their mother, because someone else lost its entire family. Can we just agree they are both really bad? Now if you think one character does it better for you as Shirou’s love interest, that is up to you and a different argument. On the plus side, since HF is getting a movie, I will finally be able to watch that and see what all the stuff with Sakura.

That's nice :3 I finished my argument any way

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I didn't like her at all, if there is something I hate most that is heroes turning dark.
But that's just me, I only liked her in CP.

The moment where you realise the beauty of the flower is when it withers.

You clearly haven't been exposed to AM enough to appreciate corruption.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

You clearly haven't been exposed to AM enough to appreciate corruption.

That's because I am 40k fan, and as such in every other game media I see any form of corruption and darkness as heresy to be purged and cleansed with holy fire.

Saber Alter especially, as she reminds me on Chaos Space Marines way too much. And I hate them from the bottom of my heart.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

That's because I am 40k fan, and as such in every other game media I see any form of corruption and darkness as heresy to be purged and cleansed with holy fire.

Saber Alter especially, as she reminds me on Chaos Space Marines way too much. And I hate them from the bottom of my heart.

Still, even if you hate her, I'm still hoping they give her an actual personality. No bits and pieces in comedy spin-offs.

[Brother Coa]

She even have less personality than standard Saber. Honestly, she is just used as doll the entire route.

[GreyZone]

I just realized that Shirou has a huge advantage over Archer, when it comes to fighting Gilgamesh.

Gil's chain probably works against Archer, but not against Shirou (unless used like a normal chain by hand, but no remote control through GoB).

That chain was the reason for Archer's victory two times after all

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

(if you include his F/0 fight against Iskander).

Maybe that was the (tactical) reason Archer let Shirou fight against Gilgamesh, instead of fighting him himself.

[GDB]

Enkidu would just be a normal chain against either of them. Neither of them is Divine, after all.